2005 Springer Softail classic, carb
Just had a cam job done
woods 555
woods lifters
SE adj. pushrods, new tensioners, cam plate, oil pump
Bike sounded great after tune, drove it for 20 min, and sounds very clanky in push rod area of front cylinder. I also noted that the push rods on my 08 Dyna seem to be very tight and I can barely wiggle them, as apposed to the new ones in this softail that I can wiggle by hand...I assume I can adjust those? or is there a break intake for the lifters that would case the noice? My mechanic actually doesn't like the SE push rods and thinks they are hard to adjust. COULD I JUST DO THIS EASILY??
Thanks!! Ben
If the lifter is under load it will very tight once it gets on the heel of the cam they spin freely. I would suggest trying to learn more about adjusting your lifters if you havent done this before.
he may not like them because of the time needed to adjust them properly :nix:
I have the Rivara Chrome Molly adjustables with 40 threads per inch, so yeah a PIA to get right
they should not spin real freely but should spin some if that makes sense?
https://www.sscycle.com/tech-info/instructions-data/pushrod-adjustment
I'm sure you got this tech-info with the pushrods but just incase :wink: you didn't
2 other things to check make sure the push rod is not hitting the top of the tube you will see rubmarks on the pushrod if it is
another noise could be rocker arm noise check rocker lockers they are supporters here
Shane Conley has a great instructional video
https://youtu.be/uV3gKbUZKG0 :up:
Could be rocker shaft noise... there is a cure :smiled:
Used to be in my EVO days was to allow time for bleed down of the lifter while running the valve adjustments. I think it was to allow 10 minutes before moving on. If not, your adjustment will be way to tight and probably bend one of your brand new SE push rods. I learned the hard way all those years ago. Never told anyone till now!!
I would take it back.tell him this is unacceptable.i would bet there is not enough preload. BobWoods says on his lifters and cams 24tpi pushrods are to be adjusted 3 turns+2 flats i have always followed this and the results are quiet valvetrain.
rotate the engine put the cam on baseline, both lifters at there lowest point. the pushrods should rotate but you should not be able to move them .
Thanks!!!!!
Please someone correct me if i am wrong. You did not mention any headwork done. i have seen some 04 manufactured 05 dynas with the 04 heads. 555 lift is a little much for these heads. the 05 heads should have beehive springs,depending upon age those are just acceptable for 555 lift. i would update the springs.
Doctorevil. Interesting. I had not head that 05 models had 04 springs. I did not do headwork, and according to Bob wood my springs were fine as stock. I will run like this for a few years, and someday do a top end job. Its a daily rider for me.
I think he would have noticed.04 -05 was the change in the heads mostly valve stem size and the springs to behive. i have seen a couple 04 manufactured 05 dynas with the early heads.must have been leftover 04 88". i have done a lot of dynas.
We use S&S lifters here, and load them .140"-.150".
Works well.
I have the SE rods in my 2011 103RGU. They are easy to adjust. When the lifters are at their low point, adjust out any lash by hand and then go 15 flats which is really 2.5 whole turns. When the adjusted rod is easy to turn by finger, then move on to the next rod. Each rod should only take 10-15 minutes from start to finish. The most important thing is to allow the lifter to bleed down before moving on to the next rod. Not doing that could lead to a bent valve or piston damage or rod damage = none of which you want.
Boe like hillside said they set .140" to .150" load. se 24tpi pushrods set at 2.5 turns is only .104" preload minimum is .120." Even when i set limited travel lifters after backing off i am close to .110"
Quote from: doctorevil on January 10, 2019, 06:07:12 PM
Boe like hillside said they set .140" to .150" load. se 24tpi pushrods set at 2.5 turns is only .104" preload minimum is .120." Even when i set limited travel lifters after backing off i am close to .110"
I am using the hd se rods with a set of replacement lifters i got from j&p which called for the 15 flats. Doctorevil has an excellent point that I really did not think about as to lifter specs and what they call for as to preload and total travel which needs to be considered and the tpi's converted to fractions of an inch. Different set ups require different number of turns. As I recall, the hd's are 32tpi's so each full turn would be 0.0315". To hit the preload minimum of 0.120, it would take a minimum of 3.8 turns - assuming my math is correct. Just have to do the math unless the lifters come with instructions. Thanks for correction/elaboration.
Now you've got me curious as to which lifters you have.
Quote from: Hossamania on January 11, 2019, 10:10:55 AM
Now you've got me curious as to which lifters you have.
Me too!!!! Hopefully I still have the specs on them at home. I'm now concerned that I may have screwed up. As i recall, they cost approximately $120 from j&p in Daytona about two years ago when I got them. It may have been at bikeweek in March but other than being a little noisy, they have been ok. I am not looking forward to having to readjust them, however I want them adjusted properly and if they are not, I'll fix it.
I'll get back with an update.
Adjusting the pushrods is not too difficult. If I can do it, any monkey can do it. I will admit, I was nervous the first time, and still get a little nervous, just because it's not something I do on a regular basis. Once you get in there, you'll have peace of mind that they are right.
Quote from: Hossamania on January 11, 2019, 10:10:55 AM
Now you've got me curious as to which lifters you have.
Now I'm really confused. Got the 15 flat information from HD High Performance Quick-Install Adjustable Pushrods which called for 15 flats with (I guess) standard hd lifters. The S&S cycle instructions for the MR103 cams that I have in the bike call for 4 turs (24 flats). I can't find the paperwork on the replacement lifters I installed when I installed the cams but i got them from j&p in daytona but they were not the most expensive lifters that they sold - sort of in the middle on price. I do not recall seeing any brand on them so they were generic at best. I've been running them at 15 flats (2.5 turns) and other than being noisy, they have performed ok. Suggestions / thoughts???
BTW - my apologies if I've hijacked the orginal op's thread - it certain ally was not intentional.
Boe you are getting to caught up on the brand of lifters. I have done a lot of budget builds with delphi , comp 850-1, even 8 dollar sealed power lifters all set at min .120"most of these are club bikes and are beat on. all failures are related to evo filter, dirty oil maintenance if you get my drift and pushrods do come loose. dont overthink it just follow the tpi chart and set the preload on the cam base min.120" to .150". I dont think you have LT lifters that have to be backed off different animal.my preference of lifters are S&S then johnson- hylift. I also use the rockout inserts on every rocker cradle.
Quote from: doctorevil on January 11, 2019, 09:10:05 PM
.... I also use the rockout inserts on every rocker cradle.
:up:
Quote from: doctorevil on January 11, 2019, 09:10:05 PM
Boe you are getting to caught up on the brand of lifters. I have done a lot of budget builds with delphi , comp 850-1, even 8 dollar sealed power lifters all set at min .120"most of these are club bikes and are beat on. all failures are related to evo filter, dirty oil maintenance if you get my drift and pushrods do come loose. dont overthink it just follow the tpi chart and set the preload on the cam base min.120" to .150". I dont think you have LT lifters that have to be backed off different animal.my preference of lifters are S&S then johnson- hylift. I also use the rockout inserts on every rocker cradle.
I think you are right. I am going to remove the push rod and confirm that its 32tpi and if so, go for 4 turns which would be the .120 preload. I was thinking that different lifters would have different preload requirements. Will check back but I think you are absolutely correct. I'll find out easy enough if the lifter does not bleed down at 4 turns but i doubt that will be the case.
Appreciate all the feedback on this - have really learned a lot on lifters. I enjoy working on my bikes and have done all my maintenance for the last 50plus years. I'm an old (very old) shade tree mechanic. I actually remember when the automakers came out with pvc valves for cars and all the uproar that caused!!!
Rest of the story -
Pulled a rod and found that it's 24tpi - not 32. To get a .120 preload, it works out to 2.9 turns which is why my previously using 2.5 turns worked out as well as it did. I'm going to readjust to 3 turns and button it back up.
Thanks all for the lessons on lifters.
Glad i could help.We all learn more everyday on this forum.I am learning alot fallowing the cam duration bias thread.Some great guys here contributing there knowledge.
UPDATE:
Thanks all for a very informative and interesting thread:
Seems like I got it running well!! Using Woods Lifters, and Bob Woods suggested 3 full turns plus two sides.
It took me two times, but I got it. runs quiet now and so far so good. Haven't been able to take it out for a longer ride yet though. Ben
Quote from: tenorhog on January 09, 2019, 11:04:17 AM
2005 Springer Softail classic, carb
Just had a cam job done
woods 555
woods lifters
SE adj. pushrods, new tensioners, cam plate, oil pump
Bike sounded great after tune, drove it for 20 min, and sounds very clanky in push rod area of front cylinder. I also noted that the push rods on my 08 Dyna seem to be very tight and I can barely wiggle them, as apposed to the new ones in this softail that I can wiggle by hand...I assume I can adjust those? or is there a break intake for the lifters that would case the noice? My mechanic actually doesn't like the SE push rods and thinks they are hard to adjust. COULD I JUST DO THIS EASILY??
Thanks!! Ben
Are you saying the "builder" you used to do the "cam job" blew it on setting the pushrods or was it locking them down?
Not sure. However, when I took off the covers one seemed a bit loose. Wiggly.
BB
OK all, CRAP.
Same problem. After re-adjusting the push rods, all was great a few rides around town. Yesterday took bike out for about an hour, and then bike started getting loud in front cylinder push rod area. Back is fine.
This is BS, I will take it back to 'builder' but any ideas??
2005 Springer Softail classic, carb
Just had a cam job done
woods 555
woods Alpha lifters
SE adj. pushrods, new tensioners, cam plate, oil pump
Quote from: tenorhog on January 21, 2019, 08:14:03 AM
OK all, CRAP.
Same problem. After re-adjusting the push rods, all was great a few rides around town. Yesterday took bike out for about an hour, and then bike started getting loud in front cylinder push rod area. Back is fine.
This is BS, I will take it back to 'builder' but any ideas??
2005 Springer Softail classic, carb
Just had a cam job done
woods 555
woods Alpha lifters
SE adj. pushrods, new tensioners, cam plate, oil pump
Check the lock nut on the pushrod. They are notorious for cracking.
A little brakleen to get the oil off when you have the pushrods adjusted and you can use a paint pen to make a line from the pushrod straight down the lock nut and onto the adjuster, then later you can tell at a glance if anything moved while running.
Interesting thing...It is only making noises when really Hot!! Just started it up and went to work, it sounds fine...
5 min ride.
Thanks everyone for your help.BB
Quote from: tenorhog on January 21, 2019, 01:04:33 PM
Interesting thing...It is only making noises when really Hot!! Just started it up and went to work, it sounds fine...
5 min ride.
Thanks everyone for your help.BB
What are you running for engine oil?
What ignition are you running?
Dyna tech TC88 Ignition.
Not sure what oil he put in. I usually run synthetic 20-60 aims
I have woods lifters adjust to .120 works well I like them since they have the extra oil feed for the needle bearings on the lifter, probably a pushrod cam loose or not adjusted right , woods lifters are nice wouldn't change . woods cams can be noisey I run his 9BG and they are ok , the W8G are very loud , I also run gear drive
Quote from: tenorhog on January 21, 2019, 01:04:33 PM
Interesting thing...It is only making noises when really Hot!! Just started it up and went to work, it sounds fine...
5 min ride.
Thanks everyone for your help.BB
How deep did you set them? Remember that your barrels will grow about .060 taller when hot. If they were not set deep enough they could rattle at top temperature but not before they peak.
Quote from: tenorhog on January 21, 2019, 02:11:11 PM
Dyna tech TC88 Ignition.
Not sure what oil he put in. I usually run synthetic 20-60 aims
Try Spectro 25-60 dino oil.... when it comes to noise there is nothing better. :up:
Have you considered or ruled this out?
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on January 09, 2019, 12:19:05 PM
Could be rocker shaft noise... there is a cure :smiled:
Quote from: kd on January 21, 2019, 05:13:33 PM
Quote from: tenorhog on January 21, 2019, 01:04:33 PM
Interesting thing...It is only making noises when really Hot!! Just started it up and went to work, it sounds fine...
5 min ride.
Thanks everyone for your help.BB
How deep did you set them? Remember that your barrels will grow about .060 taller when hot. If they were not set deep enough they could rattle at top temperature but not before they peak.
3 full turns plus 2 sides, as Bob woods recommended.
What push rods and TPI?
Quote from: kd on January 21, 2019, 06:50:57 PM
What push rods and TPI?
SE adjustable. Don't know TPI
They are 32 tpi. .... 32 tpi equals .0301" deep per turn. .... 4 turns and 3 flats .140" deep. Most recommend .140 deep. The lifters have about .200 travel. When hot the barrels grow approximately.060 so the .140 will be .100 to .080 deep. You have them set at .100 deep and they are OK until they get hot and the cylinders grow. Technically they could now be at .040. I would try the 4 turns and 3 flats at .140 and give it a try. Here's some pushrod info for you to confirm the measurement for your peace of mind.
https://www.sscycle.com/tech-info/instructions-data/pushrod-adjustment
My screaming eagle adjustables are 24 tpi. :scratch:
Quote from: moose on January 09, 2019, 12:02:17 PM
2 other things to check make sure the push rod is not hitting the top of the tube you will see rubmarks on the pushrod if it is
another noise could be rocker arm noise check rocker lockers they are supporters here
yea the lockers quited mine down
There are no barrels growing .060" that is just confusing him.
deleted
Quote from: Chippitt68 on January 22, 2019, 02:55:33 AM
My screaming eagle adjustables are 24 tpi. :scratch:
:agree: the SE p/rods that I have installed in the past have had a 24 tpi.
The Smith Brothers p/rods that I run in my bike have a 32 tpi.
Imo, fwiw,
Imo, you could run anywhere from 1 turn down from zero lash to 1/2 turn from bottomed. I have run as little as .025" preload [LESS than 1 turn] and it was as quiet as running .100" down. The cylinders may indeed grow, but the pushrods must too. Back in the early 2000s, we [on the early HTT] chased "lifter" noise. Someone heater various parts in an oven, and it was determined that growth was a non issue. [might have been BHKen]
I have run 1/2 turn from bottomed, both with and w/o limiters, and there is a bit of noise, or a bit more noise, if you prefer. The 251s aren't silent, but it's not bad with limiters.
This is with Crane 10530 lifters, SE251s, slightly over-sprung with Manley duals. I can't remember the thread pitch on my pushrods. It's really a moot point anyway, as the difference in 1 turn of preload with 24 tpi and 32 tpi is just 11 thou.
Dave
I have heated cylinders to 230 degrees and have measured no more than .014 growth. this is not atrue indicator of growth because i heated the whole cylinder. The non combustion area of the cyl would have a lower temp ie less growth. .060 growth is a 1/16 of an inch.
Well, I guess I better qualify my .060 growth statement too. :banghead: This is a number that has been offered on this and other sites by some of the pros. It was stated during stud pulling and head torque discussions as well as lifter adjustment.. I have not personally measured any and am not interested in wasting any more time by researching who or when. The OP has plenty of help here without me confusing things so please disregard my earlier contributions.
It is all good KD we just try to help each other out. I apologize if you took it as condescending.
I'll ditto what doctorevil wrote, KD.
My point was meant to state that it seems to me that some put to much emphasis on one amount of preload being correct, or better, over another [also perfectly fine] amount. As long as the clip isn't being hammered, and the lifter isn't bottoming, it should be fine, really.
I will note that some claim that running near bottom can cause oiling issues in some lifters. I don't know if that is true or not.
Dave
All is good here. I should have stayed out of it. There was plenty of traffic without me jamming it up. I used slang thinking the OP would know what it meant. Post #16 and 17 gave 2 different TPI scenarios and one gave the same pitch as I got from the S+S chart I provided ( under caution and with my source attached I might add). I missed Boe's post confirming he romoved one of his HD pushrods and measured it at 24 TPI after thinking it was 32 TPI :embarrassed:
Many people adjust top down and some from bottomed up. Tomato / Tomatoe :nix:
The fact that the problem occurred only when hot (not warm - hot) is why I mentioned possibly trying a deeper setting but I guess not directly enough. Deeper settings have cured many of these complaints to the point some of our top builders on this site just do it right off the bat. It's no different than setting limiters just cracked off the bottom. Mine work well that way.
Carry on, your doing a fine job. We'll see what cures it (I hope).
So all, Seems like one of you was right long ago...
My bike is a 2005 Spring Softail Classic BUT, it as 04 heads!!! -99 serial number on both.
Therefore the 555 woods cam is too much lift. I was adjusting the pushrods and lifters correctly.
So now I will buy compatible conversion cams and ride the crap out of it. And since I'm out of money...
Any other ideas other than Andrews 37N or woods t-w-6-6 R ??
I'm asking because I don't know, should the OP be concerned with having damaged the heads and or springs running the wrong cam for a while? Maybe money better spent on setting the heads up for the cams instead of changing cams and hoping the springs or other pieces are not damaged?
Probably to be 100% sure,,,,,,, A pull down would be in Order, might be okay for now (MAYBE)
Quote from: Hossamania on February 03, 2019, 03:41:37 PM
I'm asking because I don't know, should the OP be concerned with having damaged the heads and or springs running the wrong cam for a while? Maybe money better spent on setting the heads up for the cams instead of changing cams and hoping the springs or other pieces are not damaged?
YES, Am planning on looking at the top end. Didn't run it for that long.
And Right, am thinking of doing new heads as an option. S&S, then I could keep everything I have already installed.
Thanks, BB