2018 107 sumping

[Reddog74usa]

"They've burned the bridge for me ever buying another new HD. It's become a profit and fk the customer company now."
Ron


MEE TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

HARLEY WHO???

[borno]

If the oil pump was cavitating, you could most probably hear it. It makes a distinctive sound. JMHO

[cbumdumb]

The bridge with me has been burnt trampled and not going to be built again . Looking at alternatives now. Probably my last bike.

[hattitude]

Steve Cole, of TTS, posted this on another forum today, in response to a guy asking what causes sumping and how can he avoid it...... Since Steve posted it on a public forum, I don't think he'd mind me reposting here...

"The truth is no one knows the cause for sure. What I can tell is is what we have found and how we have addressed it. Yes, the sloppy workmanship is part of it. Badly bored cylinders is something that has to be checked. Next would be the piston oilers. HD used a self tapping 8-32 screw that IMHO is too small for the job. Then there is the Oiler gasket, they use two side sticky tape to hold it in place. The tape is the issue as the glue dissolves when in contact with hot oil and then your left with a thin film of clear plastic between the gasket and the Oiler that leaks. To fix it, the best you can is to tap the holes in the case deeper so that the screws tighten properly and remove the tape from the gasket, prior to trying to use them by soaking the gasket in Lacquer thinner first and removing the tape from the gasket. Allow the gasket to dry before installing. We also make and install restrictors that we fit under the piston oilers to limit the oil flow. Last but not least is the Oil pickup area in the case. They are an "as cast" area and there is issues with it allowing too much air to enter the suction side of the oil pump. We re-machine that area and weld an extension tube in that makes the passageway between the pump and the pickup location longer. This keeps the lower pressure from sucking the oil backwards out of the oil pump. This idea is nothing new, as the TwinCam engine had this same issue during development and it delayed its release about 2 years. Extending the pickup length is what solved it then and is what we have followed for the M8. What I can tell you is we have taken 5 engines that were sumping, rebuilt them with these modifications and not one of them has sumpped again. It to early to say this is "the fix" but it sure looks promising."

[kd]

Steve's a smart guy and he knows that doing it once or twice doesn't mean the problem is solved. Let's hope this is it. Too bad it means a tear down to resolve. Maybe a good time to go bigger. 

[Bike31]

I'm waiting to read if SC has had similar experience with M8 Softails...and with what displacement and vintage.

HD has built different M8's. Not all may behave badly...or maybe SC knows otherwise. 

[rbabos]

Steve's a smart guy and he knows that doing it once or twice doesn't mean the problem is solved. Let's hope this is it. Too bad it means a tear down to resolve. Maybe a good time to go bigger. 

Silly me. I expect the MoCo to own up to it and solve it. Then again as long as people keep buying and fixing their fk ups, life will go on.
Ron

[hogpipes1]

Steve Cole, of TTS, posted this on another forum today, in response to a guy asking what causes sumping and how can he avoid it...... Since Steve posted it on a public forum, I don't think he'd mind me reposting here...

"The truth is no one knows the cause for sure. What I can tell is is what we have found and how we have addressed it. Yes, the sloppy workmanship is part of it. Badly bored cylinders is something that has to be checked. Next would be the piston oilers. HD used a self tapping 8-32 screw that IMHO is too small for the job. Then there is the Oiler gasket, they use two side sticky tape to hold it in place. The tape is the issue as the glue dissolves when in contact with hot oil and then your left with a thin film of clear plastic between the gasket and the Oiler that leaks. To fix it, the best you can is to tap the holes in the case deeper so that the screws tighten properly and remove the tape from the gasket, prior to trying to use them by soaking the gasket in Lacquer thinner first and removing the tape from the gasket. Allow the gasket to dry before installing. We also make and install restrictors that we fit under the piston oilers to limit the oil flow. Last but not least is the Oil pickup area in the case. They are an "as cast" area and there is issues with it allowing too much air to enter the suction side of the oil pump. We re-machine that area and weld an extension tube in that makes the passageway between the pump and the pickup location longer. This keeps the lower pressure from sucking the oil backwards out of the oil pump. This idea is nothing new, as the TwinCam engine had this same issue during development and it delayed its release about 2 years. Extending the pickup length is what solved it then and is what we have followed for the M8. What I can tell you is we have taken 5 engines that were sumping, rebuilt them with these modifications and not one of them has sumpped again. It to early to say this is "the fix" but it sure looks promising."

This is what i enjoy reading , a real world fix.  Joe 6 pack isn't going to tear down his new bike  to do all this while under warranty. The co . should pick up on this fix and send steve a big fat $$$ck.

[klammer76]

Steve Cole, of TTS, posted this on another forum today, in response to a guy asking what causes sumping and how can he avoid it...... Since Steve posted it on a public forum, I don't think he'd mind me reposting here...

"The truth is no one knows the cause for sure. What I can tell is is what we have found and how we have addressed it. Yes, the sloppy workmanship is part of it. Badly bored cylinders is something that has to be checked. Next would be the piston oilers. HD used a self tapping 8-32 screw that IMHO is too small for the job. Then there is the Oiler gasket, they use two side sticky tape to hold it in place. The tape is the issue as the glue dissolves when in contact with hot oil and then your left with a thin film of clear plastic between the gasket and the Oiler that leaks. To fix it, the best you can is to tap the holes in the case deeper so that the screws tighten properly and remove the tape from the gasket, prior to trying to use them by soaking the gasket in Lacquer thinner first and removing the tape from the gasket. Allow the gasket to dry before installing. We also make and install restrictors that we fit under the piston oilers to limit the oil flow. Last but not least is the Oil pickup area in the case. They are an "as cast" area and there is issues with it allowing too much air to enter the suction side of the oil pump. We re-machine that area and weld an extension tube in that makes the passageway between the pump and the pickup location longer. This keeps the lower pressure from sucking the oil backwards out of the oil pump. This idea is nothing new, as the TwinCam engine had this same issue during development and it delayed its release about 2 years. Extending the pickup length is what solved it then and is what we have followed for the M8. What I can tell you is we have taken 5 engines that were sumping, rebuilt them with these modifications and not one of them has sumpped again. It to early to say this is "the fix" but it sure looks promising."

This is what i enjoy reading , a real world fix.  Joe 6 pack isn't going to tear down his new bike  to do all this while under warranty. The co . should pick up on this fix and send steve a big fat $$$ck.

Exactly this! So a guy goes out and buys a new M8, then has to spend a ton more money to get it the way it should be from the factory. It has gotten past crazy. I don't know squat about how things are done but I assume Harley doesn't want to try the things that Steve has come up with as the engine would have to be re-certified by the EPA and that would take time and money? So the moco soldiers on playing the percent game, X amount of units sold and only X amount sump, not worth a redesign fix. The majority of HD riders I assume put on very few miles a year (family, work, limited season etc), lets say 5,000 miles (if that). After the warranty runs out they do a factory stage kit etc and now sumping starts to show up. Worst case the motor is fryed and now it's on them or they just ride the stock bike for X years, get some miles on it (that many here do in a year or two) and the bike starts to sump, worst case motor shot. No support then. It's crazy. Many say time to go bigger, lot of $$$ involved with that and having the required fixes applied to the cases if in fact this turns out to be the fix. This is not what the majority of the customers sign up for when buying their dream Harley at a point in time in their life when they finally can. The moco and their response to the issues may be the start of their demise in the end. They are in decline now with the loyalists aging out and/or getting disgusted, younger kids not interested or can"t afford the product. I see it in the posts here. For what ever reason, the moco seems blind to this.

[IronButt70]

So a guy goes out and buys a new M8, then has to spend a ton more money to get it the way it should be from the factory. It has gotten past crazy. I don't know squat about how things are done but I assume Harley doesn't want to try the things that Steve has come up with as the engine would have to be re-certified by the EPA and that would take time and money? So the moco soldiers on playing the percent game, X amount of units sold and only X amount sump, not worth a redesign fix. The majority of HD riders I assume put on very few miles a year (family, work, limited season etc), lets say 5,000 miles (if that). After the warranty runs out they do a factory stage kit etc and now sumping starts to show up. Worst case the motor is fryed and now it's on them or they just ride the stock bike for X years, get some miles on it (that many here do in a year or two) and the bike starts to sump, worst case motor shot. No support then. It's crazy. Many say time to go bigger, lot of $$$ involved with that and having the required fixes applied to the cases if in fact this turns out to be the fix. This is not what the majority of the customers sign up for when buying their dream Harley at a point in time in their life when they finally can. The moco and their response to the issues may be the start of their demise in the end. They are in decline now with the loyalists aging out and/or getting disgusted, younger kids not interested or can"t afford the product. I see it in the posts here. For what ever reason, the moco seems blind to this.

BINGO!!!!!!!  We have a winner

[Reddog74usa]

I wonder how many units they are moving now compared to how many they would sell if they stepped up and fixed the M8 issues. I see a lot of riders on here wanting a new bike but are waiting to see how this turns out before writing the check, myself included. I also hear others off the forums saying there waiting to see so who knows if there losing or making money as a result of the way there dealing with these issues. One thing for sure, there rep is in bad shape and with Indian eatin there lunch at the track they've got a big hill to climb to get back on track. If they continue in the direction there going it won't be long before some big changes come down and they aren't going to be good.

[Scottr]

The bridge with me has been burnt trampled and not going to be built again . Looking at alternatives now. Probably my last bike.

Well then why are you on this forum !

[Thermodyne]

It seems to me, that by sealing off the back of the pump to the case, they just eliminated any case to chest breathing that was taking place through the bearing.  Changing the dynamics of how the crank case and cam chest breath.  Sealing that flow through the main bearing would increase the pressure differential between the two areas as the pistons alter the volume of the crankcase.  And that would probably help push the oil back into the pump.  Re-priming the pump.  But that also changes how the bearing is lubed.  I would assume that there is enough oil pumped out the rear of the pump to keep the bearing lubed.   

With a single scavenge rotor pulling on both areas of the case, it should be able to remove the oil from both, unless it sucks one dry and looses efficiency because its moving a high volume of air.  Or partially air locked.  The extra push on the oil in the crankcase would in theory push it into the pump, freeing up the air lock.

The MoCo had similar issues with the early TC, and with some outside help, corrected it by redesigning the passages and rotor volume in the pump.  I assume that this is what they were attempting with the upgraded pumps for the M8.  It was never completely addressed in the TC.  But it was also much less noticeable for the average rider, not having much effect until higher rpms.

I really think the correct fix is a three stage pump.  But that is prolly way more than the MoCo would like to spend on it.  Seeing as down the road they could be looking at a lot of warranty retrofits.   

[cbumdumb]

The bridge with me has been burnt trampled and not going to be built again . Looking at alternatives now. Probably my last bike.

Well then why are you on this forum !

Because you oh so intelligent one I still own one of these slumping beast and last I checked still a free country okay cup cake

[rbabos]

It seems to me, that by sealing off the back of the pump to the case, they just eliminated any case to chest breathing that was taking place through the bearing.  Changing the dynamics of how the crank case and cam chest breath.  Sealing that flow through the main bearing would increase the pressure differential between the two areas as the pistons alter the volume of the crankcase.  And that would probably help push the oil back into the pump.  Re-priming the pump.  But that also changes how the bearing is lubed.  I would assume that there is enough oil pumped out the rear of the pump to keep the bearing lubed.   

With a single scavenge rotor pulling on both areas of the case, it should be able to remove the oil from both, unless it sucks one dry and looses efficiency because its moving a high volume of air.  Or partially air locked.  The extra push on the oil in the crankcase would in theory push it into the pump, freeing up the air lock.

The MoCo had similar issues with the early TC, and with some outside help, corrected it by redesigning the passages and rotor volume in the pump.  I assume that this is what they were attempting with the upgraded pumps for the M8.  It was never completely addressed in the TC.  But it was also much less noticeable for the average rider, not having much effect until higher rpms.

I really think the correct fix is a three stage pump.  But that is prolly way more than the MoCo would like to spend on it.  Seeing as down the road they could be looking at a lot of warranty retrofits.   

All too common. Not until they are made to look like fools from someone else, will they will sneak it into production. A long period for retrofits on warranty expired bikes is also $$$$$ in their pocket.
Ron

[r0de_runr]

My 18 Softail Heritage 114 sumped.

[sandrooney]

Sorry to hear. Don't hear of too many softails sumping I think this is only the 3rd one I have read about. What did they do to fix it?

[Timber0472]

Out of curiosity how much oil out of CP sensor is "acceptable"? I pulled roughly 8oz out of mine one time and once 10oz. The bike runs good and pulls hard. I was having an issue with vibrations but I think that was a primary issue and has been resolved.

[sandrooney]

Harley's spec is 6oz. Are you letting it idle upright for a couple minutes before checking the oil?

[Timber0472]

Harley's spec is 6oz. Are you letting it idle upright for a couple minutes before checking the oil?

No. should I? I just rode to work and back. Then shut it off and pulled it. About a 15/20 min ride. I'm not really concerned about warranty at this point. I put a FM 117 kit in it so that is already long gone. I was having a whining issue and I think its coming from the damn comp, but not sure at the moment, so I was thinking if I'm in the shop for comp to be checked I may just ask about oil pump fix. Bought the bike only 6 months ago. Was built in June of 2018 according to VIN so it should have the latest oil pump, but there is no seal on the pump.

[sandrooney]

I believe the SB1450 says to let it idle up right for a minute or two then pull the sensor right away.