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steering damper

Started by david lee, January 05, 2018, 07:39:25 PM

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david lee

January 05, 2018, 07:39:25 PM Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 05:45:08 PM by FSG
with 1 end of a steering damper mounted to the left side of frame should the other end be mounted to the right fork brace to work correctly thanks



Edit: added pic

kd

The way I see it, the ability to dampen will be directly related to the angle the dampener rod is set on the radius of the turn of the forks (ie. 90* to the center of the travel) and the strength of the dampening is related to the distance the dampener is attached from the axis of the front end steering radius (ie. neck brg. spindle). More simply put, the physics of the Law of Levers.
KD

Breeze

All that I have seen are pretty straight. Works like a shock absorber, fit like a shock absorber.
I'm starting to believe my body is gonna outlast my mind.

76shuvlinoff

Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place, then come down and shoot the survivors.
 - Ernest Hemingway

Burnout

No steering damper needed if the steering geometry is right.

I thought that it was inspected and approved safe?

They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

david lee

will investergate.maybe something with the rake

HotRodShovel

Glad you started this thread. Since I put a new triple tree on my Shovel, its 2" stretch, 37* rake, with 21" front wheel. its a little floppy.  Kinda loose.  Checked everything is tight to specs. Never had this with FL triple tree & 16" wheel.  Was thinking of a dampener.   

David Lee, what dampener did you use?
Sometimes life is like trying to share a sandwich with Rosie O'Donnell. 
John

dirtymike

Good thread, going to watch this one. I have used them but never on a Harley. Rake and trail are your friends on a rigid trike. As Burnout stated "Geometry" is the key. If you have ever had a high speed wobble you can relate. When the downward force overcomes the upward resistance your screwed. Nice trike. Dirty

JW113

Hotrod John, is your set up similar to Wide Glide front end? I've only been on a couple, but I thought they do indeed feel a little "floppy" until you get moving, then quite stable. My iron chopper, with 21" and 6" over was also really floppy until rolling.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

david lee

you could say its a similar wide glide setup.the damper was on it when i bought it.maybe its the wrong one or mounted wrong.the front end is all tight eg bearing adjustment.thanks

Hossamania

Disconnect the damper, jack up the front end, and check your bearings for wear, looseness, tightness, notching, etc. Then hook up the damper and check for binding or it being over tight.
Check to make sure your triple trees are square as well. Might have to loosen the pinch bolts and fender, bounce the front end a few times, and re tighten. Again, without the dampener connected.
Make sure your fork tubes are not bent.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Hossamania

I see you have a fork brace too, that will need to be loosened as well to "square" the triple trees. When done with all this and it back on the ground, check your steering tightness with and without the dampener connected.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

JW113

I always wrote off steering dampers as a band aid for bad chassis set up. They look cool and all, especially on those old Brit bikes, but see the first sentence. That said, I've never been on a trike in my life, so perhaps there is something about them that begs for a steering damper. After all, no leaning into a turn. More of a front wheel scrub, which might want to fight the handlebars?
:nix:

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

hbkeith

Quote from: JW113 on January 07, 2018, 06:35:55 PM
I always wrote off steering dampers as a band aid for bad chassis set up. They look cool and all, especially on those old Brit bikes, but see the first sentence. That said, I've never been on a trike in my life, so perhaps there is something about them that begs for a steering damper. After all, no leaning into a turn. More of a front wheel scrub, which might want to fight the handlebars?
:nix:

-JW
:up: some people think ya just sit there and ride it  :wink:

david lee

Quote from: hbkeith on January 08, 2018, 01:52:36 AM
Quote from: JW113 on January 07, 2018, 06:35:55 PM
I always wrote off steering dampers as a band aid for bad chassis set up. They look cool and all, especially on those old Brit bikes, but see the first sentence. That said, I've never been on a trike in my life, so perhaps there is something about them that begs for a steering damper. After all, no leaning into a turn. More of a front wheel scrub, which might want to fight the handlebars?
:nix:

-JW
:up: some people think ya just sit there and ride it  :wink:
that does make sense

HotRodShovel

JW113, sorry forgot to mention my forks are FLH with 6" over tubes. It pretty much leveled out the rake & stretch.  I put Progressive springs in a few years back and changed the oil of course when I did that.  Always very stable.
Truth be told I only took it out for a short local jaunt before I put it back on the lift.   So I'm not sure about highway speeds yet.   

Ive got a nasty crank shaft leak that I will be addressing here with photos.  I'm trying something new for me  as a fix before I have to split cases and look at bushings.  I'll do this in the coming weeks as well as some top end work.

You guys will get the whole story, photos and all.   Hopefully you are right but of course I'm concerned about tank slap and that dreaded death wobble.  I'd like to address it right away if it looks like its going there.
Sometimes life is like trying to share a sandwich with Rosie O'Donnell. 
John

david lee

Quote from: Hossamania on January 07, 2018, 02:47:17 PM
Disconnect the damper, jack up the front end, and check your bearings for wear, looseness, tightness, notching, etc. Then hook up the damper and check for binding or it being over tight.
Check to make sure your triple trees are square as well. Might have to loosen the pinch bolts and fender, bounce the front end a few times, and re tighten. Again, without the dampener connected.
Make sure your fork tubes are not bent.
i did notice it was set fully clockwise at the adjuster which to me is for highway use not city

JW113

Dave, what I think a few of us are suggesting is to investigate why the previous owner put a damper on it in the first place. It is for looks, or for function? Maybe ask the guy if it was having steering stability issues? I saw a brand new trike on the showroom floor last week, and no damper on it. So I'm not so sure trikes are inherently prone to head shake.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Burnout

Head shake because the trail geometry is too big.

Just like a shopping cart if you push it too fast.
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

hbkeith

Quote from: JW113 on January 11, 2018, 08:31:29 AM
Dave, what I think a few of us are suggesting is to investigate why the previous owner put a damper on it in the first place. It is for looks, or for function? Maybe ask the guy if it was having steering stability issues? I saw a brand new trike on the showroom floor last week, and no damper on it. So I'm not so sure trikes are inherently prone to head shake.

-JW
My ol Servicar had a Springer , it had some good head shake on a rough road . get some head shake going and that ridged ass bouncing hitting pot holes in the country while getting it !!! , keep it twisted ! :baby:

harley_cruiser

Trikes steer differently than bikes simply because they do not lean. The longer the trail the more stable the bike/trike is and the more the bike wants to keep going the direction that it is going. The shorter the trail the easier it is to turn and the less stable the bike is at speed.
On a bike you can overcome the long tail simply because you can lean the bike and force it to follow into the curve. On a trike you cant do this so on a trike that has a lot of trail it is very hard to make it turn, so trike builders will shorten the trail and add a steering damper on them to make them more stable. You can do the same thing with the steering head bearings by tightening them up and adding a dampening affect, as a mater of fact a lot of the old side car bikes had a big knob on the steering head to tighten/loosen up the head depending on the circumstances.

friday

January 11, 2018, 10:25:55 AM #21 Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 05:25:25 PM by friday
stock servicar steering angle is 23 degrees . there is pics on net of drummer buddy miles on his servicar chopper with long forks but it would be no where near hp of evo and probably never saw Hwy speed


model T era had 2 halved housing diff maybe theres a later ford parcel delivery vehicle of some sort with the same style diff ?
air port vehicle ?
air plane stair ladder vehicle ?



** it supposed to have ford diff .

https://selvedgeyard.com/2010/03/25/buddy-miles-the-band-of-gypsys-funky-badass-mother-drummer/

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=buddy+miles+star+spangled+chopper+image&qpvt=buddy+miles+star+spangled+chopper+image&FORM=IGRE


harley_cruiser

Quote from: david lee on January 05, 2018, 07:39:25 PM
with 1 end of a steering damper mounted to the left side of frame should the other end be mounted to the right fork brace to work correctly thanks



Edit: added pic
Does that bike have raked trees on it?

david lee

Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on January 11, 2018, 10:31:05 AM
Quote from: david lee on January 05, 2018, 07:39:25 PM
with 1 end of a steering damper mounted to the left side of frame should the other end be mounted to the right fork brace to work correctly thanks



Edit: added pic
Does that bike have raked trees on it?
i believe no

david lee

Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on January 11, 2018, 10:24:03 AM
Trikes steer differently than bikes simply because they do not lean. The longer the trail the more stable the bike/trike is and the more the bike wants to keep going the direction that it is going. The shorter the trail the easier it is to turn and the less stable the bike is at speed.
On a bike you can overcome the long tail simply because you can lean the bike and force it to follow into the curve. On a trike you cant do this so on a trike that has a lot of trail it is very hard to make it turn, so trike builders will shorten the trail and add a steering damper on them to make them more stable. You can do the same thing with the steering head bearings by tightening them up and adding a dampening affect, as a mater of fact a lot of the old side car bikes had a big knob on the steering head to tighten/loosen up the head depending on the circumstances.
makes perfect sense

Hossamania

Quote from: david lee on January 11, 2018, 02:18:41 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on January 11, 2018, 10:24:03 AM
Trikes steer differently than bikes simply because they do not lean. The longer the trail the more stable the bike/trike is and the more the bike wants to keep going the direction that it is going. The shorter the trail the easier it is to turn and the less stable the bike is at speed.
On a bike you can overcome the long tail simply because you can lean the bike and force it to follow into the curve. On a trike you cant do this so on a trike that has a lot of trail it is very hard to make it turn, so trike builders will shorten the trail and add a steering damper on them to make them more stable. You can do the same thing with the steering head bearings by tightening them up and adding a dampening affect, as a mater of fact a lot of the old side car bikes had a big knob on the steering head to tighten/loosen up the head depending on the circumstances.
makes perfect sense

My friend's 1947 Indian has an adjustment knob on the steering head, probably because those bikes were set up to be used with or without a sidecar.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

david lee

Quote from: Hossamania on January 11, 2018, 07:31:52 PM
Quote from: david lee on January 11, 2018, 02:18:41 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on January 11, 2018, 10:24:03 AM
Trikes steer differently than bikes simply because they do not lean. The longer the trail the more stable the bike/trike is and the more the bike wants to keep going the direction that it is going. The shorter the trail the easier it is to turn and the less stable the bike is at speed.
On a bike you can overcome the long tail simply because you can lean the bike and force it to follow into the curve. On a trike you cant do this so on a trike that has a lot of trail it is very hard to make it turn, so trike builders will shorten the trail and add a steering damper on them to make them more stable. You can do the same thing with the steering head bearings by tightening them up and adding a dampening affect, as a mater of fact a lot of the old side car bikes had a big knob on the steering head to tighten/loosen up the head depending on the circumstances.
makes perfect sense
sidecars pull the bike sideways

My friend's 1947 Indian has an adjustment knob on the steering head, probably because those bikes were set up to be used with or without a sidecar.

JW113

Steering dampers were an option on the Indian, I've seen a few bikes with them. I agree, I think this is more of a sidecar option.

Not that I know first hand, but know a guy who builds and installs sidecars says if the rig is set up correct, it will not pull to the side. With a sidecar mounted, the bike is tilted outward (away from sidecar) to compensate so you have a neutral steering, no pull to either side. He is also a big advocate to mount car tires on all three wheels for a sidecar set up.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Julio

Quote from: JW113 on January 12, 2018, 09:19:15 AM
Steering dampers were an option on the Indian, I've seen a few bikes with them. I agree, I think this is more of a sidecar option.

Not that I know first hand, but know a guy who builds and installs sidecars says if the rig is set up correct, it will not pull to the side. With a sidecar mounted, the bike is tilted outward (away from sidecar) to compensate so you have a neutral steering, no pull to either side. He is also a big advocate to mount car tires on all three wheels for a sidecar set up.

-JW

Even a well adjusted rig with the proper lean out, toe-in, wheel lead and level frame will need a dampner. I can run 90 mph on mine with no drift or head shake, but cross a set of railroad tracks at 20 mph, and the front end would go crazy. A VW dampner calmed everything down and is pretty standard equipment on all rigs.
As far as going dark side, tugging a tub is pretty hard on the rear tire. I never got more than 4k miles out of mine. I spun up an adapter for a 15x4 car wheel and now get a ton of miles out of the rear.


david lee

got the trike back from my hd mech who said the front was bent,one fork had different internals and was bottoming out on bumps and the damper was too short and at the wrong angle.he couldnt believe it rode it after his atempted test ride thanks all

76shuvlinoff

Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place, then come down and shoot the survivors.
 - Ernest Hemingway

Burnout

https://www.ebay.com/itm/41-mm-Panhead-adjustable-rake-tripple-tree-with-tube-adjusters-chrome/253595911746

This is what I used on my three wheeler.

Any head shake will dramatically reduce the time between welding up cracks in the frame.

After installing the trees shown above the frame has not needed any crack repair in 15 years.
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

david lee

Quote from: Burnout on May 02, 2018, 08:58:24 AM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/41-mm-Panhead-adjustable-rake-tripple-tree-with-tube-adjusters-chrome/253595911746

This is what I used on my three wheeler.

Any head shake will dramatically reduce the time between welding up cracks in the frame.

After installing the trees shown above the frame has not needed any crack repair in 15 years.
never seen that those parts before.my mechanic said it will steer straight now with the front alighned thank you burnout

david lee

August 10, 2018, 04:16:12 AM #33 Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 04:22:51 AM by david lee
Quote from: harley_cruiser on January 11, 2018, 10:24:03 AM
Trikes steer differently than bikes simply because they do not lean. The longer the trail the more stable the bike/trike is and the more the bike wants to keep going the direction that it is going. The shorter the trail the easier it is to turn and the less stable the bike is at speed.
On a bike you can overcome the long tail simply because you can lean the bike and force it to follow into the curve. On a trike you cant do this so on a trike that has a lot of trail it is very hard to make it turn, so trike builders will shorten the trail and add a steering damper on them to make them more stable. You can do the same thing with the steering head bearings by tightening them up and adding a dampening affect, as a mater of fact a lot of the old side car bikes had a big knob on the steering head to tighten/loosen up the head depending on the circumstances.
i talked to a well known side car racer today and said a vw beetle steering damper is the answer . bike ones are not that strong in damping.i bought one today and now have to figure out how to fit it (mounting points)thanks

Burnout

Trikes work way different than a bike, what makes a bike stable, makes a trike unstable.

I am using a set of panhead side car trees on mine with standard rake and have no headshake or stability issues, no need for a damper.

Before, when it had a sportster front end on it, it shook so bad the frame had to be welded up once a month.

However Daves frame appears to be raked (generously).
His may not shake but just have the floppy wheel thing and obviously too much trail.

For this I would special order a Springer from Paughco and make some Sugar Bear Rockers rather than trying to make a hydraulic fork work.
This will put the steering forces at the contact patch instead of up high and off axis.
You need to accurately measure rake and calculate the trail before spec'ing the springer.
And it should not be a light weight unit.

Mounting anything but a stem type damper presents challenges and engineering compromises.
Ignoring that a damper is a bandaid for a symptom and doesn't "fix" anything.

They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

Julio

Quote from: david lee on August 10, 2018, 04:16:12 AM
i talked to a well known side car racer today and said a vw beetle steering damper is the answer . bike ones are not that strong in damping.i bought one today and now have to figure out how to fit it (mounting points)thanks

Headshake on a trike or hack is a weight distribution problem, not a rake problem. That's why Triglides and Freewheelers come from the factory with steering dampners. It's cheaper and easier to install a dampner than to reposition the motor and tranny forward to weigh the front end down and increasing the rake won't solve the headshake problem.
The VW dampner will solve your problem on the cheap. Certainly less than buying and installing a heavier front end. Your sidecar racing buddy should be able to help you on the install. For my hack, I used a 2 piece shaft collar and welded a tab for the front fork anchor. You'll have to figure out where to anchor in the rear to give it full movement.


david lee

im looking at buying this one as i already have the mounting points, one being a threaded hole on the tripple trees where you have welded a bracket. where as the vw one would have to have brackets made and welded at both ends on trike.to me the vw one is very stiff damping and would make steering to hard.thanks

HotRodShovel

david, who's dampener is that?  Where did you find it?  Some info please?
Sometimes life is like trying to share a sandwich with Rosie O'Donnell. 
John

david lee

its item number 113046484242 on ebay.my mate whos a mc mechanic and a wizard in metal fabrication said the vw one will work perfect and will design brackets to fit and checked the damper tension and said is what is needed.i like to look for alternatives.thank you

kd

Have you looked at the Harley dampThey were used on the late model sidecars. Both of my 98 anniversary RK and Ultra have them and I can actually run the Ultra on the 4 lane no hands with cruise on.
KD

HotRodShovel

Thanks David, I appreciate the info.  The new rebirth of my FrankenShovel will be off the lift soon and I'm anticipating the need for one.  I could be wrong and the road test will tell, but if I do Want to have my ducks in a row and get what I need.
These VW dampeners are new to me. 
thanks
Sometimes life is like trying to share a sandwich with Rosie O'Donnell. 
John

david lee

Quote from: david lee on August 11, 2018, 11:41:47 PM
im looking at buying this one as i already have the mounting points, one being a threaded hole on the tripple trees where you have welded a bracket. where as the vw one would have to have brackets made and welded at both ends on trike.to me the vw one is very stiff damping and would make steering to hard.thanks
my mate is coming down today to make brackets for the vw damper. the conventional one in the photo 330mm long wont fit due to the rake lenght and restricts turning circle. a 400mm might work but still might be to short.i will update on the vw fit.i just hope its not a ugly look.thanks

HotRodShovel

sometimes ugly is good.  interested to know how it all comes together. keep us filled in
Sometimes life is like trying to share a sandwich with Rosie O'Donnell. 
John