The scoop on 9 digit VIN numbers.

[krhnh]

This may have been covered before but I just went through working out what the story is with 9 digit VINs on the shovel for one of my bikes so figured I'd pass along what I found for the sake of reference. I called the MoCo and verified the below to be the case.

The first and last two digits are a combination of letter and number. The prefix represents the model, the suffix the model year. There's an explanation of this at http://www.terry-zone.com/tech/vin.php with a table to decode the numbers.

The middle five numbers represent the sequential order in which the bike rolled off the assembly line. This is not for one particular model but the total produced up to that point across all models that year. Presumably there is a 00001 sequential number out there in the first VIN issued for every year from 1970 to 1980 and the highest sequential number will be the total number of bikes they built that year. If you need to verify your 9 digit VIN then you could probably search up the total number of bikes produced by H-D in your model year and if the middle five numbers of your VIN are less than or equal to that number, it should be a valid VIN for that year. Can't speak to the accuracy of the numbers but below I included the production numbers published in Donny Peterson's technical guide (Volume V) to give a clue what's realistic. Doesn't prove whether the number belongs on your bike either way but at least it should be a valid number to begin with. I was a little confused because one of Donny Peterson's books gave the impression that 1980 VIN sequential numbers should be greater than 60000. According to the MoCo rep I spoke to this would not be the case. It should be as described above.

In addition (and I'm not sure what years this applies to) there may be a star before and after your VIN. Harley used a "posiedent" VIN stamp theft deterrent scheme with a three prong stamp (like posiedon's mythical spear) which put the stars in line with the VIN itself. The correct star stamp would be harder to get than plain number stamps, making it tougher on thieves. If stars are present then it would have been harder for a thief to just evenly grind off the whole number and re-stamp it without leaving a divot between the stars so that's a tad more reassurance if the stars are present and the whole surface where the numbers are stamped is flat and even.

Anyway, if the topic of 9 digit Harley VIN numbers happens to come up during a family barbecue or something, you have some ammunition here to dazzle with.

------
Production numbers from Peterson's technical guide, Volume V:
1970 = 16,670
1971 = 22,700
1972 = 34,750
1973 = 37,500
1974 = 40,400
1975 = 34,300
1976 = 47,700
1977 = 44,250
1978 = 46,850
1979 = 49,600
1980 = 48,200

[Burnout]

Woah! I'm going to have to increase my hat size.   :^)

[RKorBUST]

Interesting
     I've been researching the VIN puzzle concerning a 79 FXEF. Terry Zome also references the issue with frames and motors with non matching VINs in 79. Can't find any other source to verify this. I really need to figure this out. A deal is pending for the bike so any help would be appreciated. I also can't get a clear answer form the DMV about non matching VINs and a Texas title. I'm in Texas so you think they could answer this. The HD dealer is no help. They said they do not commit on bikes from the AMF years due to limited documentation. What a load of crap. Either way I'm up a creek till I can figure this out.

[FSG]

The infamous 1979 Exception

https://oldironheads.com/harley-vin-number-decoder

[RKorBUST]

FSG, thank you very much. I'll add this to my collection of paper work and head of to the DMV.

[Burnout]

A 79 does not have a VIN on the motor, the VIN is on the frame.
The motor number is on the motor, and the motor number need not match.
This has to do with federal laws implemented to control and make numbering uniform, this is where the term VIN came from.

The motor number (after 1970) has little bearing on titling although some states may record it.
Prior to 1970 vehicle ID's were chaotic, different locals had different requirements.
EG: My 54 Studebaker had a body serial number but was registered in Oregon by the motor number, and of course had no motor in it when I bought it.

"Numbers Matching" is a silliness observed by collectors and nitwits. Important for only "Brownie Points", Bragging, and other status flexing.
Someone insisting on "numbers matching" in years where the numbers did not match in production is not a serious collector and earns bonus nitwit points if they insist on such.
The nitwit will probably not believe the article quoted if it applies to the situation.
Thanks for posting that article.

Don't count on DMV clerks for accurate information, they also will not accept any responsibility for distributing inaccurate info.
They also will not be held responsible for an illegal title, they will claim the vehicle was fraudulently registered.
This was proven by the gent who rode his titled HD for a couple of years before it was seized by LEO's as stolen.

[RKorBUST]

Ok so I have a 9 digit sequence of numbers on the frame and motor the first 2 and last 2 digits on each set of 9 are the same. The middle 5 numbers are different.
I went to the registration office again today to try my luck. Lady behind the counter said the frame and the title have to match. She does not care about the motor number. But the inspection station might. I then when to the inspection station and asked. They said they have never looked at motor numbers. Different days different statements. People never fail to baffle me. Thanks for everyone's help.

[FSG]

People never fail to baffle me.

me neither, it's the same the world over   

[Speeding Big Twin]

RKorBUST, H-D Service Letter ML-110 dated March 2, 1979 addresses the 1979 exception mentioned on oldironheads.com and terry-zone.

However, the situation you describe is different. It sounds like the last two characters on the frame and engine are H9, right? First two characters on the frame and engine are the same as each other but what are they?

Can you post partial photos of both sets of characters please: first two, last two, and maybe first two of the five sequence characters. And what is the crankcase production number under the left case? Photo? 

Is the frame consistent with 1979? Photos? 
Eric 

[david lee]

according to the id number scale my 80 lowrider is a flh. the compliance says flh but nothing on my rider even resembles flh.when i bought it in 1984 from the first owner and was told it is a lowrider.all numbers match.my question is did the flh have weld on tabs for running boards as mine has mid controls and no tabs.also the engine was painted black and to my knowledge flh was not. to me its not a flh only the numbers say it is. thanks all

[Speeding Big Twin]

David, my 1971–84 H-D FX models catalog says 7G indicates FXS-80. An FXS-1200 has 2F.

What model designator is on your frame and engine?
Eric

[david lee]

mine says 3g the last two say jo.thanks if you look at 113 or 127 in the evo section that bike is similar to mine exept forward controls and evo engine.thanks

[Speeding Big Twin]

Cheers David. Your model designator doesn't indicate a Low Rider. As I mentioned above, my 71–84 H-D FX models catalog says 7G indicates FXS-80 and 2F indicates FXS-1200. FXS is a Low Rider.

You have 3G and my 41–84 FL models catalog mentions two possibilities but one of them is a 1979 Classic. Therefore because your model year is 1980 (J0) it seems your 3G indicates FLH-80 which is obviously consistent with your compliance.
   
Regarding the black engine, are you certain the paint is original?

Concerning footboard tabs, my 41–84 FL catalog lists a change to the rear brake control for late-79 and later. The foot lever bracket is larger than the previous type so I'm wondering if both ends of the footboard were attached to the new bracket?

No tab on the left side of your frame? FLs/FLHs had the rear of the left footboard attached to the aluminium outer primary beginning with 1965 models so no tab required on the frame like 64-earlier. Is there provision on your outer primary for the rear of a footboard? If not the cover may have been changed? 

Some other things to look into:
1. Do your crankcase production numbers begin with 1480?
2. What type of instrument panel do you have? And do you know if it is original to the bike?
3. Near the front engine mount is there a thin plate welded between the downtubes to accommodate an ignition module?
4. About halfway down your left front downtube is there a tab welded on? (I wouldn't expect it on a frame with VIN 3G.)

And just out of curiosity, on the lower rear forgings what suffix do the numbers have: -73 or -73A?
Eric

[david lee]

Cheers David. Your model designator doesn't indicate a Low Rider. As I mentioned above, my 71–84 H-D FX models catalog says 7G indicates FXS-80 and 2F indicates FXS-1200. FXS is a Low Rider.

You have 3G and my 41–84 FL models catalog mentions two possibilities but one of them is a 1979 Classic. Therefore because your model year is 1980 (J0) it seems your 3G indicates FLH-80 which is obviously consistent with your compliance.
   
Regarding the black engine, are you certain the paint is original?

Concerning footboard tabs, my 41–84 FL catalog lists a change to the rear brake control for late-79 and later. The foot lever bracket is larger than the previous type so I'm wondering if both ends of the footboard were attached to the new bracket?

No tab on the left side of your frame? FLs/FLHs had the rear of the left footboard attached to the aluminium outer primary beginning with 1965 models so no tab required on the frame like 64-earlier. Is there provision on your outer primary for the rear of a footboard? If not the cover may have been changed? 

Some other things to look into:
1. Do your crankcase production numbers begin with 1480?
2. What type of instrument panel do you have? And do you know if it is original to the bike?
3. Near the front engine mount is there a thin plate welded between the downtubes to accommodate an ignition module?
4. About halfway down your left front downtube is there a tab welded on? (I wouldn't expect it on a frame with VIN 3G.)

And just out of curiosity, on the lower rear forgings what suffix do the numbers have: -73 or -73A?
Eric

the only number on the crankcase is the engine number and begins with 93--.is a thin plate that holds the voltage reg.no tab welded on front down tube. narrow glide front.there is 73 stamped on the rear downtube.no tab welded on primary.dash is fx and positive engine black was original even the inner primary was black.what i do know is if i had a flh i would never change it to a fx.makes no sense and would de value the bike.thanks

[Speeding Big Twin]

No numbers on the crankcase except the engine number? That is unusual. Normally under the left case I'd expect a crankcase production number. For example, this one has 1480 +++ +++.



What about the back of the cases as per the next picture? Both these have Z7++. Anything on your cases? If there is, the letter won't necessarily be Z.



You have a thin plate that holds the voltage regulator? But is it welded on or bolted on? The plate I'm looking for is welded between the downtubes as shown below. The bracket is for an ignition module as I mentioned earlier.



Also notice the frame has a tab about halfway down the left front downtube as I'd expect for a Low Rider. The tab accommodates the horn. But your frame has no tab and that makes your frame consistent with FLH. Any sign on your frame that a tab was removed?   

What is the date code on your frame? It may be stamped on the left side of the frame top engine mount near the bolt hole. It may even be partly obscured by the engine mounting bracket. 

Any ID stamped on the outside of the R-H fork stop on your lower triple clamp? If not, what about on top of the padlock plate?

What's the casting number under the trans case?
Any ID stamped on the front of the trans case, R-H side just below where the lid attaches? If nothing there, look on the back of the trans. It may be near the bottom and not far above the trans mounting plate. If still nothing, look on top of the rear ear that attaches to the inner primary. 

Where did the first owner get the bike from? What paperwork did you receive from him?

Your engine number is 3G93+++J0? And your frame has the same number? Can you post photos of both those numbers please. Thanks.
Eric

[david lee]

i will have a closer look but it does have the tab for the horn.mine has 3-half gal tanks.did flh-s have 5.and superglides all had a single tank .could it be possible the factory fitted the wrong compliance plate or wrongly stamped flh-80.the thin plate is welded.the only paperwork i got was the current rego certificate.i actually bought it of the owners mate as the original owner was a looser.his mate said he bought it new.where in australia.thanks

[Speeding Big Twin]

On an FLH I would expect 5-gallon tanks but obviously things like that can be easily changed by anyone.

I think the thin plate across the front downtubes first appeared for 1980 models. The presence of this plate, when combined with a nine-character VIN, suggests the frame is 1980. Knowing the frame date code would help.
     
If the engine, frame and compliance all say 3G then originally the bike should have been outfitted as an FLH-80. Sometimes a VIN was lined-out at the factory and a new VIN was stamped near it. But for obvious reasons the original VIN remained in place; it was not removed at the factory.

If you post photos of 3G93+++J0, and of both sides of the bike, they may help us figure out what's going on.

You could also contact the factory and ask for production records to be checked. But along with your VIN, H-D may require the crankcase production number, the additional ID stamped on the trans case and the lower tree, and the ID stamped at the back of the cases. All these things may be on file at H-D. 
Eric

[RKorBUST]

Speeding big Twin
    Ok so the first 2 digits on the frame and motor show it to be an FXEF 1200. Last 2 digits are H9. Title checked out clear, called in a favor to run the numbers on the motor. The 5 digits in between on the frame do not match the numbers for miss matched factory frame and motor combos. So if the motor comes back clean looks like I'll be a Shovelhead guy now. Really bored and disappointed in the hole TC era. So this is playing out nicely.

[crock]

Speeding big Twin
    Ok so the first 2 digits on the frame and motor show it to be an FXEF 1200. Last 2 digits are H9. Title checked out clear, called in a favor to run the numbers on the motor. The 5 digits in between on the frame do not match the numbers for miss matched factory frame and motor combos. So if the motor comes back clean looks like I'll be a Shovelhead guy now. Really bored and disappointed in the hole TC era. So this is playing out nicely.

A hope you make it to the club! SHOVELS FOREVER