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Electronic Advance

Started by rbabos, July 26, 2018, 03:29:18 PM

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rbabos

On this shovel I'm playing with the Indy took off the Mikuni electronic ignition and went with Dyna S and mechanical weights for advance. How doe the Mikuni advance the timing with no weights being used? Currious.
Ron

76shuvlinoff

RPM? 

Dunno, actually asking.
Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place, then come down and shoot the survivors.
 - Ernest Hemingway

Ohio HD

I've never seen a Mikuni electronic ignition. 

76shuvlinoff

Fair enough. What about an older Dyna 2000i, how do they know when to advance? RPM?
Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place, then come down and shoot the survivors.
 - Ernest Hemingway

xlfan

Didn't even know that Mikuni made electronic ignitions, but usually electronic ignitions adjust according to a preset ignition curve at sensed rpm.

Ohio HD

Yes, RPM, some units have multiple curves to program. Some also use the VOES.

Ajayrk

July 26, 2018, 05:34:29 PM #6 Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 05:42:51 PM by Ajayrk
On a shovel an after market electronic ignition will have a purple and white wire that is connected to the VOES.  I use a softail VOES added to my 1982 shovel.

You can ground the purple and white wire and always have the ignition advanced.  Works much better when a VOES is added.


STATIC TIMING THE MOTOR
Remove the timing inspection plug. With the bike in high gear turn the rear wheel to get the crankshaft to top dead

DYNAMIC TIMING
To set the 2000i timing dynamically (with the engine running), use the following procedure:
-
Set all switches to off and ground the VOES wire. This will cause the ignition to advance 35 degrees by 1500
rpm. Connect a timing light to the front cylinder plug wire.
-     Rev the engine above 1500 rpm. The full advance mark should come into view. This will verify the ignition is set
properly. Now reset the DIP switches for the mode you want to run.
Note
! - when the switch settings are changed, the power to the module must be turned off and back on for the new
settings to take effect.

https://www.wwag.com/step/pdf/123271.pdf
AJ

rbabos

Quote from: xlfan on July 26, 2018, 05:21:58 PM
Didn't even know that Mikuni made electronic ignitions, but usually electronic ignitions adjust according to a preset ignition curve at sensed rpm.
Almost positive it was Mikuni because I did a double take on it, being familiar with their carbs. This bike has had Compufire, Mikuni?? and now Dyna S with the mechanical weights.
I had a hunch it was rpm based on the curve program.
Ron

rbabos

Quote from: Ohio HD on July 26, 2018, 05:16:08 PM
I've never seen a Mikuni electronic ignition.
I'll take a pic next time I see it .
Ron

rbabos

Quote from: Ohio HD on July 26, 2018, 05:28:21 PM
Yes, RPM, some units have multiple curves to program. Some also use the VOES.
I see the Compufire electronic that was taken off had several curves but used VOES  to do it. This bike has no VOES so I take it it had a default curve to run on? Last week I didn't know or care WTF VOES was. Now I'm seeing this as a good thing. Who'd a thunk it?
Ron

rbabos

Quote from: Ajayrk on July 26, 2018, 05:34:29 PM
On a shovel an after market electronic ignition will have a purple and white wire that is connected to the VOES.  I use a softail VOES added to my 1982 shovel.

You can ground the purple and white wire and always have the ignition advanced.  Works much better when a VOES is added.


STATIC TIMING THE MOTOR
Remove the timing inspection plug. With the bike in high gear turn the rear wheel to get the crankshaft to top dead

DYNAMIC TIMING
To set the 2000i timing dynamically (with the engine running), use the following procedure:
-
Set all switches to off and ground the VOES wire. This will cause the ignition to advance 35 degrees by 1500
rpm. Connect a timing light to the front cylinder plug wire.
-     Rev the engine above 1500 rpm. The full advance mark should come into view. This will verify the ignition is set
properly. Now reset the DIP switches for the mode you want to run.
Note
! - when the switch settings are changed, the power to the module must be turned off and back on for the new
settings to take effect.

https://www.wwag.com/step/pdf/123271.pdf
Thanks, with the DynaS and the heavier springs on the weights full advance is hit at 2k range. Then as usual my quest for knowledge kicked in on the electronic advances used on some. Just now learning about VOES and benifits on a system that can make use of it. I take it the softail voes has a more aggressive advance lean in due to the softail being a lighter bike? Less retard under load?
Ron

76shuvlinoff

I run a 03 or 04 Dyna 2ki on my S&S 93"er. I tried to install a VOES years ago. I can't remember the finer details now but I never got it sorted out correctly so I removed it.

Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place, then come down and shoot the survivors.
 - Ernest Hemingway

rbabos

Quote from: Ohio HD on July 26, 2018, 05:16:08 PM
I've never seen a Mikuni electronic ignition.
Well, you can no longer say that. :teeth:
Ron

turboprop

The VOES switch and weather or not to run them has been discussed on this page many times. Sort of like an oil thread, same questions, same answers, no real consensus. If the VOES is a simple open/close switch, the MAP sensor used on carburated twin cams is a a variable switch and the idea of not running it would be enough to send the TC crowd into convulsions. Not sure why the VOES is not more widely accepted.

That being said, I have always ran a VOES on my evo bikes, and have run them on a couple of shovels as well. If anyone remembers the blue FLH shovel I gave to my buddy Johhny Bo, it ran a Daytona Twin Tech with a VOES. The only thing I had to do was to drill the manifold and press in the nipple (available from S&S) for the vacuum line. The system worked very well on that 93" shovel. No flyweights or springs to rust ( I know about the stainless units as well), no points to tinker with, single fire, multi spark mode, etc. Bo kicked that bike over usually on the first kick (after a couple of kicks to prime the cylinders). Was really as close to a maintenance free ride as a trouble head could be. Engine ran strong, got great mileage, easy to start, etc. Could not ever imagine going back to fly weights and a crude Dyna S or points. There is simply so much better available now.
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

Ohio HD

Quote from: rbabos on July 27, 2018, 07:16:09 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 26, 2018, 05:16:08 PM
I've never seen a Mikuni electronic ignition.
Well, you can no longer say that. :teeth:
Ron
Well, as I live and breathe.....   

Burnout

Quote from: turboprop on July 27, 2018, 07:45:50 AM
The VOES switch and weather or not to run them has been discussed on this page many times. Sort of like an oil thread, same questions, same answers, no real consensus. If the VOES is a simple open/close switch, the MAP sensor used on carburated twin cams is a a variable switch and the idea of not running it would be enough to send the TC crowd into convulsions. Not sure why the VOES is not more widely accepted.

That being said, I have always ran a VOES on my evo bikes, and have run them on a couple of shovels as well. If anyone remembers the blue FLH shovel I gave to my buddy Johhny Bo, it ran a Daytona Twin Tech with a VOES. The only thing I had to do was to drill the manifold and press in the nipple (available from S&S) for the vacuum line. The system worked very well on that 93" shovel. No flyweights or springs to rust ( I know about the stainless units as well), no points to tinker with, single fire, multi spark mode, etc. Bo kicked that bike over usually on the first kick (after a couple of kicks to prime the cylinders). Was really as close to a maintenance free ride as a trouble head could be. Engine ran strong, got great mileage, easy to start, etc. Could not ever imagine going back to fly weights and a crude Dyna S or points. There is simply so much better available now.

VOES is not widely accepted because guys don't understand them, these are the same guys that time their bikes by "ear".

I won't install an EI without one, especially big motors. I have repeatedly cured starting trouble on big motors with no compression releases and stock starters by employing a VOES.
I too cannot bang the anti-Dyna-S drum loud enough, crude is an understatement. I'd run points before I would use a Dyna-S!



They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

rbabos

Quote from: Ohio HD on July 27, 2018, 08:07:27 AM
Quote from: rbabos on July 27, 2018, 07:16:09 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 26, 2018, 05:16:08 PM
I've never seen a Mikuni electronic ignition.
Well, you can no longer say that. :teeth:
Ron
Well, as I live and breathe.....
It is made by Compufire, so you don't feel too bad about it.
Ron

rbabos

Quote from: Burnout on July 27, 2018, 08:43:16 AM
Quote from: turboprop on July 27, 2018, 07:45:50 AM
The VOES switch and weather or not to run them has been discussed on this page many times. Sort of like an oil thread, same questions, same answers, no real consensus. If the VOES is a simple open/close switch, the MAP sensor used on carburated twin cams is a a variable switch and the idea of not running it would be enough to send the TC crowd into convulsions. Not sure why the VOES is not more widely accepted.

That being said, I have always ran a VOES on my evo bikes, and have run them on a couple of shovels as well. If anyone remembers the blue FLH shovel I gave to my buddy Johhny Bo, it ran a Daytona Twin Tech with a VOES. The only thing I had to do was to drill the manifold and press in the nipple (available from S&S) for the vacuum line. The system worked very well on that 93" shovel. No flyweights or springs to rust ( I know about the stainless units as well), no points to tinker with, single fire, multi spark mode, etc. Bo kicked that bike over usually on the first kick (after a couple of kicks to prime the cylinders). Was really as close to a maintenance free ride as a trouble head could be. Engine ran strong, got great mileage, easy to start, etc. Could not ever imagine going back to fly weights and a crude Dyna S or points. There is simply so much better available now.

VOES is not widely accepted because guys don't understand them, these are the same guys that time their bikes by "ear".

I won't install an EI without one, especially big motors. I have repeatedly cured starting trouble on big motors with no compression releases and stock starters by employing a VOES.
I too cannot bang the anti-Dyna-S drum loud enough, crude is an understatement. I'd run points before I would use a Dyna-S!


The more I learn the more I agree the DYNA S with mechanical is new meets old school for the total result being n the "Potty mouth" end of the spectrum . Everything is pointing to me installing a voes switch and going back to the  Mikuni or the actual Compufire with adjustable VOES  knobs. Now the Indy did not like the Compufire for some reason but there is no voes on this bike. He said it was doggy but the owner says it's doggier now then before rebuild. Maybe voes is the missing ingredient for best possible worlds?  I just don't want to end up looking like a tool with all the recommendations and extra money and end up in the same spot where the idle is too low and then up it a tad to where the advance starts kicking in and overshooting the set idle rpm and slow to return to set idle of 800-1000. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how voes will help with that.
Ron

turboprop

Quote from: rbabos on July 27, 2018, 10:50:01 AM
Quote from: Burnout on July 27, 2018, 08:43:16 AM
Quote from: turboprop on July 27, 2018, 07:45:50 AM
The VOES switch and weather or not to run them has been discussed on this page many times. Sort of like an oil thread, same questions, same answers, no real consensus. If the VOES is a simple open/close switch, the MAP sensor used on carburated twin cams is a a variable switch and the idea of not running it would be enough to send the TC crowd into convulsions. Not sure why the VOES is not more widely accepted.

That being said, I have always ran a VOES on my evo bikes, and have run them on a couple of shovels as well. If anyone remembers the blue FLH shovel I gave to my buddy Johhny Bo, it ran a Daytona Twin Tech with a VOES. The only thing I had to do was to drill the manifold and press in the nipple (available from S&S) for the vacuum line. The system worked very well on that 93" shovel. No flyweights or springs to rust ( I know about the stainless units as well), no points to tinker with, single fire, multi spark mode, etc. Bo kicked that bike over usually on the first kick (after a couple of kicks to prime the cylinders). Was really as close to a maintenance free ride as a trouble head could be. Engine ran strong, got great mileage, easy to start, etc. Could not ever imagine going back to fly weights and a crude Dyna S or points. There is simply so much better available now.

VOES is not widely accepted because guys don't understand them, these are the same guys that time their bikes by "ear".

I won't install an EI without one, especially big motors. I have repeatedly cured starting trouble on big motors with no compression releases and stock starters by employing a VOES.
I too cannot bang the anti-Dyna-S drum loud enough, crude is an understatement. I'd run points before I would use a Dyna-S!


The more I learn the more I agree the DYNA S with mechanical is new meets old school for the total result being n the "Potty mouth" end of the spectrum . Everything is pointing to me installing a voes switch and going back to the  Mikuni or the actual Compufire with adjustable VOES  knobs. Now the Indy did not like the Compufire for some reason but there is no voes on this bike. He said it was doggy but the owner says it's doggier now then before rebuild. Maybe voes is the missing ingredient for best possible worlds?  I just don't want to end up looking like a tool with all the recommendations and extra money and end up in the same spot where the idle is too low and then up it a tad to where the advance starts kicking in and overshooting the set idle rpm and slow to return to set idle of 800-1000. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how voes will help with that.
Ron

I have a complete Daytona Twin Tech single fire, in the nose cone ignition system (Module, coil, cup, VOES). You are welcome to borrow it before buying a new system. This is the system that came off the 106" Evo Taj-Mah-Motor that was in my red FXR (now an end table).
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

rbabos

Thanks for the offer but I'm sure my two options for electric advance should work.
Ron

FSG

I put a PAT Kit on my '90 FLHTUC many years ago, the main feature of the kit was the Cam and Carb, I don't recall an Ignition Assy but there it is in their destructions.

http://www.mikuni.com/pdf/pat_instructions.pdf

A younger brother has that bike these days, I'll as him to check the Ign Assy to see what's there.

Wicked

Quote from: rbabos on July 27, 2018, 07:16:09 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 26, 2018, 05:16:08 PM
I've never seen a Mikuni electronic ignition.
Well, you can no longer say that. :teeth:
Ron
Yup - a Compufire without the knobs! Maybe early design to compete with the dyna S's? I do like Compufire systems. User friendly and only had one out of maybe 50 go bad.... the owner shorted out a couple wires!  Don't know about present, but earlier Compufires had no tach output, for those that care.

dirtymike

Cant figure out whats so hard about points.

crock

Crock

Ohio HD

Points are so 1970's. Here's the scoop, a Harley has a loose fitting cam that opens and closes the points. The front point gap on the lobe is generally different than the rear gap, just because all of that fits together loose as a goose. So that means that the timing to one cylinder isn't optimum. Stock sluggy motor, doesn't matter so much. You start going performance it matters. Also as the rubbing block wears on the points, the dwell angles changes, and so does the timing. A lot? No. But again when we go performance, or want optimal running, it matters.

Magnetic pickups only need to pass by an open windows to break the circuit, or past a magnetic pickup. Doesn't matter if it's slightly off one bike to the next. Timing stays where you put it, nothing is wearing out as it runs like points systems do.
You would buy a brand new car or truck with a points ignition, nor would I.

rageglide

Quote from: FSG on July 27, 2018, 03:02:15 PM
I put a PAT Kit on my '90 FLHTUC many years ago, the main feature of the kit was the Cam and Carb, I don't recall an Ignition Assy but there it is in their destructions.

http://www.mikuni.com/pdf/pat_instructions.pdf

A younger brother has that bike these days, I'll as him to check the Ign Assy to see what's there.

Darn that FSG dude... beat me to it    I was just going to post, "Pass a truck" kit!   I remember when they were pushing that pretty hard back in the 90's.

dirtymike

yes i would buy i brand car with points ignition.

Hossamania

Quote from: dirtymike on July 28, 2018, 07:10:43 PM
yes i would buy i brand car with points ignition.

I'm sure your just kidding, there is no way it would work with efi, turbos, variable valve timing, etc.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

crock

July 29, 2018, 03:53:49 PM #28 Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 12:46:56 AM by FSG
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 28, 2018, 05:30:07 PM
Points are so 1970's. Here's the scoop, a Harley has a loose fitting cam that opens and closes the points. The front point gap on the lobe is generally different than the rear gap, just because all of that fits together loose as a goose. So that means that the timing to one cylinder isn't optimum. Stock sluggy motor, doesn't matter so much. You start going performance it matters. Also as the rubbing block wears on the points, the dwell angles changes, and so does the timing. A lot? No. But again when we go performance, or want optimal running, it matters.

Magnetic pickups only need to pass by an open windows to break the circuit, or past a magnetic pickup. Doesn't matter if it's slightly off one bike to the next. Timing stays where you put it, nothing is wearing out as it runs like points systems do.
You would buy a brand new car or truck with a points ignition, nor would I.

I like to think the reason I ride these shovels isn't because they need precision timing and precise fuel delivery, it's the simplicity of it. If I wanted the I would be riding a twin cam! My shovel is far from stock at 98 inches but it has a carb and it has points and it is duel fire and it has solid lifters and yes I have to "maintain" it but.... it's no longer a hobbie it's a passion. And there is nothing more satisfying than pulling away from a red light and seeing the look of the guy next to you on his Street Glide of his Deuce when he can't run away from "That old bike"
Crock

Ohio HD

Quote from: crock on July 29, 2018, 03:53:49 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 28, 2018, 05:30:07 PM
Points are so 1970's. Here's the scoop, a Harley has a loose fitting cam that opens and closes the points. The front point gap on the lobe is generally different than the rear gap, just because all of that fits together loose as a goose. So that means that the timing to one cylinder isn't optimum. Stock sluggy motor, doesn't matter so much. You start going performance it matters. Also as the rubbing block wears on the points, the dwell angles changes, and so does the timing. A lot? No. But again when we go performance, or want optimal running, it matters.

Magnetic pickups only need to pass by an open windows to break the circuit, or past a magnetic pickup. Doesn't matter if it's slightly off one bike to the next. Timing stays where you put it, nothing is wearing out as it runs like points systems do.
You would buy a brand new car or truck with a points ignition, nor would I.

I like to think the reason I ride these shovels isn't because they need precision timing and precise fuel delivery, it's the simplicity of it. If I wanted the I would be riding a twin cam! My shovel is far from stock at 98 inches but it has a carb and it has points and it is duel fire and it has solid lifters and yes I have to "maintain" it but.... it's no longer a hobbie it's a passion. And there is nothing more satisfying than pulling away from a red light and seeing the look of the guy next to you on his Street Glide of his Deuce when he can't run away from "That old bike"
I'm not against old iron, I've just been there and done that too. My first was a '52 Shovel / Pan, I bought in boxes in 1978. Once I started going faster, I wanted as much new technology I could get, to make the bike run better, and require less maintenance. Electronic ignition, Velva-Touch lifters, etc.



dirtymike

don't wont efi, turbos, variable valve timing, etc. Just AC

crock

Quote from: dirtymike on July 30, 2018, 12:28:59 PM
don't wont efi, turbos, variable valve timing, etc. Just AC
:bike:
Crock

Burnout

I hugged my Air Conditioner today. 
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"