Re-torque heads

[a_disalvo]

Is there a standard practice of when to re-torque a set of heads after changing head gaskets? Miles vs time??? Thanks, Frank

[Mule]

http://knuckleheadtheology.blogspot.com/2007/01/shovel-head-gasket-tip.html

[76shuvlinoff]

For me it was 50-250ish-500ish. I haven't touched them again in almost 30,000 miles.  This is with Cometic MLS gaskets.

Nice share Mule 

[HotRodShovel]

Heat cycles for me.  Perhaps 3 after a new assembly then when I take my torque wrench to the head bolts and they need no adjustment, I leave them alone until one day, an unscientific method whereby I just have an urge, when I go around the ol' paint mixer and check the integrity of ALL fasteners.  I'm never surprised to find a few, at least, of varying size, that need tightening even removal, thread cleaning, new thread lock and re-torque or tighten.

Agree with Shuvlinoff, Mule, I've had that site bookmarked for a while since I stumbled upon it.  Handy for sure.

[a_disalvo]

Thanks for the info, I caiied S&S and they said no need, just torque to 65# and go, but I'm not comfortable with that. Frank

[JW113]

What kind of head gasket? I have found that the new Multi-Layer-Steel aka MLS do not need to be re-torqued. Technology moves on, and these new gaskets do not compress like the old school composite ones do. I mean, stamped sheet metal. What's to compress?

-JW

[Mule]

Nitrile rubber coating may compress a bit but not much, but what is the big deal about re checking the torque on the head bolts?  I mean it doesn't take much to check and re torque if necessary... Unless you re surface your gasket surfaces, MLS gaskets are probably not the best choice for an old shovel.

[HotRodShovel]

Absolutely agree Mule    about checking the torque, easy peasy, however, as much as I advocate Cometic MLS head gaskets, you may have a point about surface condition ruling gasket type.  But if anyone is doing the job correctly why drop the ball and not machine the mating surfaces if suspect?  With all due respect putting soft material gasket on surfaces that are questionable, well, its kinda like a band-aid on a bullet hole,  its not something I personally would do but I get what you say.

[crock]

Still check em every annual service (plugs,points oil push-rods etc) AND the base bolts!

[Hossamania]

I've worked on a couple Shovels, and grew up with many friends that rode them, and it seemed to me a good idea to touch and tighten every fastener at least once a year, most of them once a month, some every time it is ridden.

[76shuvlinoff]

After the retorques I have left both the base and heads alone. All were Cometic. 

I have this nagging fear that if I checked the heads and base on a regular basis one of those times I am going to feel that sickening gut drop when a thread pulls.  Unlikely, but you know what I mean.

[Hossamania]

I can understand that.

[HotRodShovel]

Not like its never happened before, Mark!!

[JW113]

I have this nagging fear that if I checked the heads and base on a regular basis one of those times I am going to feel that sickening gut drop when a thread pulls.  Unlikely, but you know what I mean.

Bingo! My thoughts exactly. Not to mention, if the thing wants it's head/cyl bolts tightened, it will let you know.

-JW

[Mule]

Checking torque is not about ham fisting fasteners and stripped threads. It is checking to make sure the torque spec has remained, if your threads let go when checking torque on a bolt , it was already compromised before hand. Of course the thing will let you know when , like sucking oil on the oil returns or burning your gasket surfaces etc.

[turboprop]

Rode shovels for years, didnt own a torque wrench, did many tope end rebuilds. The technique then and now is to use a wrench and a hammer, the tone when the bolts are tight will change in a very obvious way.

As for all this retorqueing, lubing threads, lubing the underside of deadbolts, etc. How are these headbolts supposed to be be 'retorqued' with any sort of repeatability after they have been initially torqued? I mean, do the bolts get removed and then relubed? Nope.

Real curious to see what sort of working solutions this page comes up with.

[Mule]

Simple dog bone on your torque wrench, set to the same spec as your initial setting and check... Yeah back in the day we never used a torque wrench and if a head gasket blew you just replaced it. I still have the old wrench handle I used, from back then.

[turboprop]

Simple dog bone on your torque wrench, set to the same spec as your initial setting and check... Yeah back in the day we never used a torque wrench and if a head gasket blew you just replaced it. I still have the old wrench handle I used, from back then.

What about that bit about lubing the threads and under the heads, that is just waved for the re-torque, not important? I assume that whatever lube was used during the install, that its long gone for the re-torque. So if the bolt does break free during the re-torque then it certainly isn't going to come close to the same torque as the initial install. There is no correct answer.

[Mule]

You maybe right, But some say no lube on the threads for proper torque, just chased and cleaned.The reading on the wrench only tells you how much twisting force is being applied on each bolt.Torque values are for dry bolts, lubricant will change your actual torque value in most cases.

[rbabos]

Worked on my neighbors shovel last year and had the heads off. Had to make the weirdest adapters to be able to actually torque the bolts. On thing I noticed is late model bikes use stretch studs which move with heat expansion and retract with cooling so the hg sees very little cycles of compression and releasing between cold and hot. The bolts used in the Shovel may not provide this stretch effect so over time this repeated extra compression on a hot engine might over time compress the gasket and the original torque is lower , which could lead to gasket failure. The originals and copper could be the worst.  Personally I cannot see this yield happening with MLS gaskets but in the case of most shovels by now the surfaces are not the best for MLS use. They need to be near perfect. Anyway, he supplied the blue James, I believe and that's what's in it now.
Ron

[76shuvlinoff]

Didn't mean to rattle anyone's cage over whether or not to recheck head and base bolts as regular pm. If it makes you feel good by all means do it. I simply choose not to touch those at 30,000 miles in. Other stuff, yes. I may indeed have to go through the procedure again anyhow as I am tempted to install compression releases.

Simple dog bone on your torque wrench, set to the same spec as your initial setting and check... Yeah back in the day we never used a torque wrench and if a head gasket blew you just replaced it. I still have the old wrench handle I used, from back then.

The assortment I came up with to do the head bolts on my 76.

[Hogman]

Didn't mean to rattle anyone's cage over whether or not to recheck head and base bolts as regular pm. If it makes you feel good by all means do it. I simply choose not to touch those at 30,000 miles in. Other stuff, yes. I may indeed have to go through the procedure again anyhow as I am tempted to install compression releases.

Simple dog bone on your torque wrench, set to the same spec as your initial setting and check... Yeah back in the day we never used a torque wrench and if a head gasket blew you just replaced it. I still have the old wrench handle I used, from back then.

The assortment I came up with to do the head bolts on my 76.

The Same as I've been Using Since the Early 80's. I Use the Long Bent shape one (Which Also Works Great on Some Automotive Starter Motors!) to Break the Bolts Free, and as a Snugger, if You will, but Use The Torque Wrench alone Where Possible, and the Snappy Ext. Everywhere else. Yet to Run in to ANY Issue(s) doing it This Way. Even Did a Popped H/G on my Way to Sturgis back in the Early 90's Using These! Parking lot of a Visitor Center, or whatever They're called. Po Po Came up ONCE, I Explained What I was Doing, and That IF there was ANY Mess, I'd Clean it up No Problem. He Stuck around for about 20 - 30 minutes Yacking, and when some Azz-Hat went Flying by, He Excused himself, and went & Earned Some Revenue! LOOLOLOL






ME

[dusty1]

Depends if i do a complete top end or just heads off.If i just had heads off ride 150-250 miles and re-torque.With a fresh top end,i usually check them after first 50 miles as they've already had several heat cycles.Re check again around 250 miles. I used to  always used a long box wrench and dead blow hammer to torque for many years,due to a lack of good tools.Now days i use  a  dogbone with a torque wrench.

The only head gasket i have ever used on stock or aftermarket heads is the blue teflon ones. Headbolts and inserts clean with brakleen. Liberal amount of anti-seize on bolts.Have never blown a head gasket,popped a bolt, or pulled an insert     

[a_disalvo]

UPDATE, yesterday I had to replace the pushrod tubes and gaskets because of leaks. It was the perfect time to check the torque on the head bolts, since I had put about 200 miles on the new S&S heads. I found 2 on the rear jug that were slightly off (low) not by a lot, and all is good for a while. I might add that I used the copper 0.030 gaskets supplied by S&S with a light coating of Indian Head gasket sealer. Regards and thanks for a great thread, Frank

[HotRodShovel]

   nice..

[bobrk1]

Never  did  on  my  shovel , but  used blue  Teflon  on  the  sporty and  would  put  on  about  10  miles  then re-torque  them or I  would  blow one  of  them

[david lee]

years go when i had my top end apart and reinstalled the hd mec at the time said what torque, just tight.never been touched since,still running like a clock 30 yrs later

[HotRodShovel]

This is all very interesting as I've always had to re-torque. Keep in mind I've always used the Cometic MLS head gaskets so maybe thats the odd ball in the equation. But Cometic says re-torque is not necessary.....Who knows?

[a_disalvo]

S&S also claims retorque is not needed, but I did find 2 bolts on the rear head out of spec by a few FT./ lbs.Frank