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88" to 95" build - tools required?

Started by chris.m.j, October 26, 2018, 06:30:08 PM

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chris.m.j

I'm working with an indy shop on a 95" build for a '05 Wide Glide EFI. I would like to do the disassembly/assembly on my own and bring in the parts for him to machine then let him do the dyno later. He's cool with it. I've got the HD shop manual and reviewed the special tools. Just want to get some opinions on which are really necessary and any alternatives to save a few bucks. Also, if something is just better left for the shop to do (like everything, ha).

Here's a list from the manual:

Rocker cover wrench (HD-47258)
Rocker housing wrench (HD-47248)

Piston pin circlip (HD-42317)
Piston pin remover (HD-42320-A)

Cylinder assembly/removal:
Piston support plate (HD-42322)
Threaded cylinders (HD-95952-1)
Connecting rod clamping tool (HD-95952-33C)
Piston ring compressor (HD-96333-51C)
Ring compressor band (HD-96333-103)
Connecting rod bushing remover/installer (HD-95970-32D)
Connecting rod bushing reamer (HD-42318)
Connecting rod bushing socket (HD-43645)
Connecting rod bushing hone (HD-42569)

Rocker arm supper plate and rocker cover:
1/2" flank drive "dog bone" torque adapter (Snap-on FRDH161)
7/16" flank drive "dog bone" torque adapter (Snap-on FRDH141)

Cam chain tensioner unloader (HD-42313)
Cam chain sprocket locking tool (HD-42314)

Pirsch Fire Wagon

How will it be Ridden?

Are you doing the Cam's and/or heads?

How will it be Tuned? ECM, Piggy-Back, etc.?

Bolt-On Kit (i.e. HD or Other), or Piece Built (buying individual parts to create a Build)?

Otherwise, you don't "need" any of those tools.

With that being said, most of what you do need can be leased or borrowed from Automotive Supply Stores such as AutoZone and the like.

You will want is a Torque Wrench, Ring Compressor, Vernier Caliper, perhaps a Micrometer, and small steel Rule.

Now, as for the Connecting Rod Piston Bushings and a few others, the only way to really know you need some of the tools is during teardown. Measuring everything and comparing to the Suggested Tolerances.

The next thing you want is to decide exactly how you want to build it. Gaskets, Bands, Clearances, etc.

Doing Cams and/or head Work does require a few "Speciality" Tools. But, again, there are several places to lease rather than purchase. Personally, I have about $50k+ in Speciality Tools. But, I never know what I need until the Motorcycle is on the Lift. You on the other hand know exactly what you will be doing and maybe never need that tool again.

I do know some people here will loan tools for Shipping Costs.
Tom

koko3052

Yes Chris.... if you are giving a list of "must haves".....leave someone else do the job! :emoGroan:
Do the teardown with whatever tools that you have, but my suggestion is do not the assembly!

prodrag1320

besides normal hand tools (wrenches,sockets,allens,ect) the only special tools you will need is a ring compressor & tq wrench

rigidthumper

Quote from: chris.m.j on October 26, 2018, 06:30:08 PM
I'm working with an indy shop on a 95" build for a '05 Wide Glide EFI. I would like to do the disassembly/assembly on my own and bring in the parts for him to machine then let him do the dyno later. He's cool with it. I've got the HD shop manual and reviewed the special tools. Just want to get some opinions on which are really necessary and any alternatives to save a few bucks. Also, if something is just better left for the shop to do (like everything, ha).

Here's a list from the manual:

Rocker cover wrench (HD-47258)  :up:
Rocker housing wrench (HD-47248)

Piston pin circlip (HD-42317) :down:
Piston pin remover (HD-42320-A) :down:

Cylinder assembly/removal:
Piston support plate (HD-42322) :down:
Threaded cylinders (HD-95952-1) :up:
Connecting rod clamping tool (HD-95952-33C) :down:
Piston ring compressor (HD-96333-51C) :up:
Ring compressor band (HD-96333-103) :up:
Connecting rod bushing remover/installer (HD-95970-32D) :down:
Connecting rod bushing reamer (HD-42318) :down:
Connecting rod bushing socket (HD-43645) :down:
Connecting rod bushing hone (HD-42569) :down:

Rocker arm supper plate and rocker cover:
1/2" flank drive "dog bone" torque adapter (Snap-on FRDH161) :up:
7/16" flank drive "dog bone" torque adapter (Snap-on FRDH141) :up:

Cam chain tensioner unloader (HD-42313) :up:
Cam chain sprocket locking tool (HD-42314) :up:




:up: = good to have,  :down: = not necessary for a home shop.
Most of the pieces with  :up:  are available from Jims USA or Georges Garage or K-Star.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

Don D

Rigidthumper always a very good resource to listen to.  :wink: :up:

doctorevil

Have the machine shop gap and install the piston rings.



chris.m.j

Rigidthumper, thank you that's exactly what I was looking for.

And doctorevil, my biggest concern about DIY was the piston rings. I've done most of the other engine work at one point or another but have not played around with pistons. Videos and other instructions look simple enough but I'm sure it's a skill that needs practice. Any other opinions on DIY piston rings?

Pirsch, this is "piece built" where the shop has a recipe for 95". I sat down with him and he went over everything - cams, heads, pistons, lifters, push rods, exhaust, and dynojet upgrade. He said to bring in the heads and cylinders when I'm ready and we can go from there.

Thanks for the responses so far. Any other general comments on what I'll experience during the teardown/rebuild? This is my winter project and I'm in wisconsin so I've got plenty of time.

1FSTRK

Quote from: chris.m.j on October 27, 2018, 12:34:29 PM


Thanks for the responses so far. Any other general comments on what I'll experience during the teardown/rebuild? This is my winter project and I'm in wisconsin so I've got plenty of time.

First off welcome to HTT, you have come to the right place.
Asking questions and doing the research first will pay off in the end. I am sure with some help you will be successful.

Here is some reading that will give you more insight on doing first time builds with HTT help.
A little long but worth the read.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=86710.msg982732#msg982732
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

gregfxs

Even the ring compressor, I've used a large hose clamp that just fits over all the rings, worked well.
Well this just turned into a real monkey f*#k

PoorUB

Ring compressor, dog bone torque adapters is about all you need for top end work. The rest of it is unnecessary. If you are ding cams and cam bearings you will need a puller/driver, again you can borrow or rent one easily. I have done a few Twin Cam top ends and cam changes with basic hand tools and a ring compressor and torque adapters. If you feel the need to buy all that stuff I would just pay someone to do the job because unless you plan on really getting into doing Harley engine rebuilds you will use all these tools once and they will just collect dust and take up space in your tool box.

Rocker cover wrench (HD-47258)
Rocker housing wrench (HD-47248)

Piston pin circlip (HD-42317)
Piston pin remover (HD-42320-A)

Cylinder assembly/removal:
Piston support plate (HD-42322)
Threaded cylinders (HD-95952-1)
Connecting rod clamping tool (HD-95952-33C)

Piston ring compressor (HD-96333-51C)
Ring compressor band (HD-96333-103)
Connecting rod bushing remover/installer (HD-95970-32D)
Connecting rod bushing reamer (HD-42318)
Connecting rod bushing socket (HD-43645)
Connecting rod bushing hone (HD-42569)

Rocker arm supper plate and rocker cover:
1/2" flank drive "dog bone" torque adapter (Snap-on FRDH161)
7/16" flank drive "dog bone" torque adapter (Snap-on FRDH141)

Cam chain tensioner unloader (HD-42313)
Cam chain sprocket locking tool (HD-42314)
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

smoserx1

I did mine back in early 2015.  The only special tool I used were two 4 inch hose clamps and a homemade wrist pin puller.  here is a puller from motion pro:
https://www.amazon.com/Motion-Pro-08-0472-Deluxe-Harley-Davidson/dp/B007KPU0T4
You can make this for next to nothing with a piece of PVC pipe, some threaded rod and a few nuts and washers.  I got it all at home depot for about $10, and have since used the homemade tool to install shifter shaft bushings in my primary.  If you are concerned about scratching the pistons with the hose clamps you can make protective liners out of an old Clorox or 2 liter soft drink bottle.  Just cut you some circular strips the same width as the hose clamp.  Anyway, if you are boring your old cylinders get the new pistons first and take them to your machinist so he can bore the cylinders out to the exact diameter plus tolerance.   I did not change the rod bushings, they seemed OK.  Everything else I got by with ordinary tools including the circlips (small screwdriver and needle nose pliers work fine for me.

les

Inner cam bearing tool?
Outer cam bearing tool?
Tool to press the cams in the out cam bearings?

smoserx1

QuoteVideos and other instructions look simple enough but I'm sure it's a skill that needs practice. Any other opinions on DIY piston rings?
No expert but I have done 2 cars and 2 bikes including the one I am riding now.  All of them had instructions.  The oil ring was 3 pieces, a corrugated looking middle spacer and two thin rings called rails. 

Install the spacer and then install a rail on the bottom and install its gap an inch or so from the spacer's gap (right or left).  Install the other rail on the top but orient the rail's gap an inch or so in the other direction from the bottom rail.  The gap of the oil ring assembly will be considered the gap of the corrugated spacer, not the rails.

Install the middle compression ring.  It may be different than the top ring.  If it has a punch mark this will go up.  Orient its gap 120° from the oil ring spacer's gap

Install the top ring.  Again if it has a punch mark this will go on top.  Orient its gap 120° from the middle ring, but not in the same position as the oil ring spacer gap.

If you are afraid of scratching the pistons with the rings, use vertical strips of tape.  Remove the tape immediately after.  When you get ready to install the piston in the cylinder (or vice versa on a Harley), lubricate the rings and gaps with oil.  DO NOT USE ASSEMBLY LUBE on pistons or cylinder walls or rings, it can carbonize during break in and cause trouble.

chris.m.j

Sounds good, everyone. This should get me started.


farmall

Quote from: les on October 28, 2018, 03:00:43 PM
Inner cam bearing tool?
Outer cam bearing tool?
Tool to press the cams in the out cam bearings?
Don't try to get by with a generic expanding bearing puller, even a nice one. They can work many times...until they don't. Fortunately I found every roller and race fragment OUTSIDE the engine. It was a long and ugly search. I found tools and parts I forgot I had so it sort of worked out.                                                                                                       

Don't use an Evo cam bearing puller on a TC either.  My indy shop bro borrowed what was supposedly the correct tool from his indy shop bro. NOW the pullers are stored separately. That engine was roached from tensioner shoe crumbs and metal swarf so no extra work was required.

chris.m.j

Just an update:

So far so good. The engine is completely disassembled. The only specialty tools I used were:

- a sprocket locking tool for the cam sprockets
- a cam tensioner unloader
- bearing puller for the inner cam bearings

Someone on the site was kind enough to let me borrow their tools for the cost of shipping. Much appreciated.

The only thing I wish I would have had was a connecting rod busing remover. I struggled with that and ended up tapping it out with a soft mallet and socket. How terrible is that? Are the connecting rods/bushings/etc messed up now? I wasn't swinging for the fences but I really regret being impatient with that and not just making one like others have.

smoserx1

https://www.georges-garage.com/product-category/99-06-t-cam-engine/page/2/

Take a look at the tool on the left in the link.  I don't see why you couldn't make something.  When I did mine I did not change the bushings.  Wrist pins yes cause the new pistons included them.  Anyway I don't like the idea of tapping something like this out because it puts lateral force on the rods and this is not something they would seem to get in operation (might be wrong here).  When I did mine I tried to push the rods side to side (right to left) then up and down.  I felt no play either direction so I figured I was good.  I would suggest you do the same.  I would press your new bushings in even if you end up buying that tool, but I think if you take the bushing with you to Home Depot you can conjure up something to do it cheap.

I did not mention cam tools in my original reply because that is technically not part of an 88 to 95 inch conversion.

rigidthumper

Quote from: chris.m.j on January 28, 2019, 11:19:38 AM
Just an update:

The only thing I wish I would have had was a connecting rod busing remover. I struggled with that and ended up tapping it out with a soft mallet and socket. How terrible is that? Are the connecting rods/bushings/etc messed up now? I wasn't swinging for the fences but I really regret being impatient with that and not just making one like others have.
Unless you used the fixture to hold the rod at its lowest point, while banging away, there's a very good chance you bent the connecting rods. They are very strong up/down, but not so much when side pressure is being applied.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

Hilly13

Quote from: rigidthumper on January 28, 2019, 12:21:51 PM
Quote from: chris.m.j on January 28, 2019, 11:19:38 AM
Just an update:

The only thing I wish I would have had was a connecting rod busing remover. I struggled with that and ended up tapping it out with a soft mallet and socket. How terrible is that? Are the connecting rods/bushings/etc messed up now? I wasn't swinging for the fences but I really regret being impatient with that and not just making one like others have.
Unless you used the fixture to hold the rod at its lowest point, while banging away, there's a very good chance you bent the connecting rods. They are very strong up/down, but not so much when side pressure is being applied.
The bearing might not have appreciated it much either, no way of knowing just by looking.
Just because its said don't make it so

Boe Cole

A ring compressor is nice but I've always been able to get away with using my finger to push the rings together and allowing the jug to drop. 

I did not notice anyone mentioning feeler guages to measure ring separation but that is a must in my book.
We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public.

cheech

Out of curiosity why didn't you just leave the bushings alone? Unless very high mileage probably would of been OK? Or measured them first?
Did you mean rod bushing or wrist pin anyway?
And on the rings, can have the shop install pistons in bottom of cylinder up to wrist pin the just set on studs and insert wrist pin.
Eliminate need for ring compressor.

PoorUB

Quote from: chris.m.j on January 28, 2019, 11:19:38 AM
Just an update:

So far so good. The engine is completely disassembled. The only specialty tools I used were:

- a sprocket locking tool for the cam sprockets
- a cam tensioner unloader
- bearing puller for the inner cam bearings

Someone on the site was kind enough to let me borrow their tools for the cost of shipping. Much appreciated.

The only thing I wish I would have had was a connecting rod busing remover. I struggled with that and ended up tapping it out with a soft mallet and socket. How terrible is that? Are the connecting rods/bushings/etc messed up now? I wasn't swinging for the fences but I really regret being impatient with that and not just making one like others have.

Do you mean the wrist pin?

I hope like hell you didn't drive the bushings out of the top end of the connecting rods!
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

hbkeith

January 29, 2019, 01:21:23 AM #23 Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 01:26:40 AM by hbkeith
Quote from: PoorUB on January 28, 2019, 05:22:09 PM
Quote from: chris.m.j on January 28, 2019, 11:19:38 AM
Just an update:

So far so good. The engine is completely disassembled. The only specialty tools I used were:

- a sprocket locking tool for the cam sprockets
- a cam tensioner unloader
- bearing puller for the inner cam bearings

Someone on the site was kind enough to let me borrow their tools for the cost of shipping. Much appreciated.

The only thing I wish I would have had was a connecting rod busing remover. I struggled with that and ended up tapping it out with a soft mallet and socket. How terrible is that? Are the connecting rods/bushings/etc messed up now? I wasn't swinging for the fences but I really regret being impatient with that and not just making one like others have.

Do you mean the wrist pin?

I hope like hell you didn't drive the bushings out of the top end of the connecting rods!
I think I would have the bottom end checked , but you saved a few bucks

BVHOG

You already have a 1/2 dogbone adapter in your toolbox, it's called a 1/2 flat wrench
If you don't have a sense of humor you probably have no sense at all.

chris.m.j

January 29, 2019, 11:08:58 AM #25 Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 12:35:58 PM by chris.m.j
Quote from: PoorUB on January 28, 2019, 05:22:09 PM
Quote from: chris.m.j on January 28, 2019, 11:19:38 AM

The only thing I wish I would have had was a connecting rod busing remover. I struggled with that and ended up tapping it out with a soft mallet and socket. How terrible is that? Are the connecting rods/bushings/etc messed up now? I wasn't swinging for the fences but I really regret being impatient with that and not just making one like others have.

Do you mean the wrist pin?

I hope like hell you didn't drive the bushings out of the top end of the connecting rods!

I do mean the wrist pin, not the bushing. Did I make a big mistake not pressing those out? Do I need to repair the crank or check anything?

I sure feel dumb not being more patient with this. I didnt even need them out, it was the last step of disassembly.

(Edited: i misunderstood the previous reply.)

smoserx1

January 29, 2019, 12:58:59 PM #26 Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 01:03:02 PM by smoserx1
QuoteI do mean the wrist pin, not the bushing. Did I make a big mistake not pressing those out? Do I need to repair the crank or check anything?

I sure feel dumb not being more patient with this. I didnt even need them out, it was the last step of disassembly.

OK, the wrist pin HAS to come out to get the pistons off the connecting rod.  A bushing will remain in the connecting rod.  So did you remove both the wrist pin AND the bushing, or just the wrist pin?  In my one time experience the wrist pin was not a very tight fit.  I did press it out with a tool I made from PVC pipe, threaded rod and a few nuts and washers.  When I installed the new pistons (which included NEW wrist pins), I could do it with my fingers and did not need the tool.  In the first reply to you I showed you a link to a tool to remove/install the wrist pin.  In the second I showed you a tool to  remove and install the BUSHING.  If all you have removed so far is the wrist pin, chances you did not have to tap too hard to get it out (lets hope so).

Next step I would to is attempt to wiggle each rod laterally (side to side) and then up and down.  ANY discernible play likely means the rods  big end (the end that connects to the crankpin using a bearing) is compromised and that crank has to come out and be serviced or replaced.  It is not serviceable by a do-it-yourselfer at all.  However if you find no play, visually inspect the rods  for any signs of lateral bending from the tapping you did.  If the rod visually looks straight I would go ahead and assemble the top end.  I would surmise that if the rod(s) were  bent laterally the cylinders would NOT slide down easily over the studs and allow the piston to enter the bottom of the bore., But, I may be wrong on this assumption.  Keep your fingers crossed and hope for the best.

chris.m.j

January 29, 2019, 04:19:19 PM #27 Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 04:24:06 PM by chris.m.j
Just the wrist pin, not the bushing. Just tapping with a soft mallet. Nothing crazy but there was a little resistance.  I'll check the connecting rods to see what kind of play there is.