Conical valve springs - option for those afraid of beehives?

[dave brode]

All,

Here is a related thread, on a kinder valve spring for a CVO110 head.

Ray [no cents] was inquiring about the single conicals, and Hammer's success with the stiffer than most of us need [519 lbs/inch] conical was discussed. http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=94902.0

I've looked at the lighter spring in that group.
[url="http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CC&Product_Code=7228-16&Category_Code="]http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CC&Product_Code=7228-16&Category_Code=[/url]


It seems to me that is would be a good street spring for milder cams. 398# open if in at 1.800". 412# at .630".

Steel, or tool steel retainers can be had, or Ti.  Same top i.d as many popular beehives.

Apx $150 a setup from comp with seats, locks and tool steel retainers. Add $20 ish for ti. That's public pricing. You guys in the trade would do better, I assume. I'll assume that PAC and others have these too, but comp was easier to research.

Good thing?
Dave
p.s. - there are dual conicals from comp, but they are 600 lbs/inch

[Ohio HD]

Larry's Motorcycle and Machine can supply you with PAC dual springs. Here my 110+ heads he setup has them.

Larry does very nice work.


[attach=0,msg1277811]

[Don D]

All,

Here is a related thread, on a kinder valve spring for a CVO110 head.

Ray [no cents] was inquiring about the single conicals, and Hammer's success with the stiffer than most of us need [519 lbs/inch] conical was discussed. http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=94902.0

I've looked at the lighter spring in that group.
[url="http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CC&Product_Code=7228-16&Category_Code="]http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CC&Product_Code=7228-16&Category_Code=[/url]


It seems to me that is would be a good street spring for milder cams. 398# open if in at 1.800". 412# at .630".

Steel, or tool steel retainers can be had, or Ti.  Same top i.d as many popular beehives.

Apx $150 a setup from comp with seats, locks and tool steel retainers. Add $20 ish for ti. That's public pricing. You guys in the trade would do better, I assume. I'll assume that PAC and others have these too, but comp was easier to research.

Good thing?
Dave
p.s. - there are dual conicals from comp, but they are 600 lbs/inch

Sure set them in at 1.8 and move on, tool steel retainers

[dave brode]

Thanks for the input, Don. You know me, I have to look at all options, and then I still sometimes make the wrong decision. LOL. I'll assume that you used the same spring as Hammer on 2006FXDCI's intakes, and not the lighter one.

Btw, this:

"It seems to me that is would be a good street spring for milder cams. 398# open if in at 1.800". 412# at .630"."

Should have read "398# at .600", if in at 1.800", 412# at .630"......"

OhioHD,
Yours look to be straight doubles, but very nice. I will be looking at those too, before choosing. Do you know the diameter?

Fwiw, here are the killer dual conicals;
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/dyno-tested-dual-conical-valve-springs/

[Ohio HD]

The reason I went with dual springs is to keep things simple, yet an improved setup over a beehive. The springs OD is 1.325" and 0.950". I don't know if Larry keeps them in stock, he may. These have the titanium retainers.

[dave brode]

The reason I went with dual springs is to keep things simple, yet an improved setup over a beehive. The springs OD is 1.325" and 0.950". I don't know if Larry keeps them in stock, he may. These have the titanium retainers.

Thanks for the info. I like the idea of ti retainer, but some claim that they wear too quickly on the street. I wonder how many miles they are safe for?  [on a typical .600"-.650" lift, 370-400# open, 6200 rpm combo]

[Ohio HD]

I have only heard that as well. I can see where titanium valves are not practical, but I don't see the spring retainer being an issue. Just my opinion, and based on I have never seen or read of any issues from the retainers being titanium.

[Don D]

Is a few grams going to add value to this 6k rpm motor? Tool steel is fine. PAC makes some with 10deg locks.

[dave brode]

Is a few grams going to add value to this 6k rpm motor? Tool steel is fine. PAC makes some with 10deg locks.

Don,

Probably not, but as Ray expressed in the other thread, we will spend $100 for a little better part here and there. Why not here? We are talking $20 total difference vs tool steel. Probably only 2 gm different though, and I must admit that your side of the argument is valid. 

Comp has 10* tool steel too, but I'll look at PAC.

Edit:

On spring compressors, I bought the NUB Tool compressor [also sold through Goodson]. It works wonderfully. Didn't flinch at the 520#  open 120R springs. Works on Evo XL and BT, and TC. I could have made one, but I'm getting lazier as I age.   

As per my luck, 2 days later, a nice used one appeared on ebay with the hose, for $75+$20. I paid $108+$10 w/o hose. Grrr.

I don't know if ebay links are allowed here, so if anyone needs one: Search  Nub Tools Harley- Davidson valve spring compressor

[kd]

   The Nub Tool spring compressor is a great tool and works well doing valve spring and seal service work with the heads still on. Well worth the money even at top retail and pays for itself when used once on heads that remain installed.

[jsachs1]

If you over rev at times, and also your valve springs aren't set up properly, springs with dampeners, and ti retainers, the dampeners will have a tendency to eat into the ti. retainer.
John

[dave brode]

Mr. Sachs and Mr. Dorfman,

Thanks for the wisdom.

Dave

[Hillside Motorcycle]

We use Kibblewhite/Precision Machining, or AV&V .650" beehives here constantly.
Have never witnessed a failure with those.
Have witnessed beehive failures with OE HD springs.

[jsachs1]

We use Kibblewhite/Precision Machining, or AV&V .650" beehives here constantly.
Have never witnessed a failure with those.
Have witnessed beehive failures with OE HD springs.

Scott, I have seen a few of the above listed broken.
John

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Certainly not the norm.

[BVHOG]

Saw a few sets of broken AV&V a couple years back on the shelf when talking to the tech guys at Goodson, they said they thought it was an isolated issue at the time. Well I have used exactly one set of the 650 AV&V beehive and have had one fail on a 628 lift cam luckily on my own bike. So for me that's 100% failure rate, or 25% if you consider the other 3 were still in one piece. Have NEVER seen a single failure  of a stock spring even when used with upper 500 lift cams but I am sure like anything there are failures with those as well.

[remington007]

I have seen only one stock beehive fail and one break a upper collar. Both of these bikes had cams, a andrews 54 and 57. So for the shear number of bikes i see in a year that is a low percentage rate considering they have been in big twins since 2005. Conversely i sold 2 sets of AV&V 600 lift springs and 1 failed. I have not had a failure with there 650 lift spring.

[wfolarry]

I install hundreds of the AV&V .650 springs every year & don't see any problems.
Not ready to yell 'the sky is falling' yet.

[1FSTRK]

Usually we see the threads popping up about the problem before we get the threads selling the cure here on HTT

I just did this search on "broken beehive spring" only 11 threads came up.
One had a picture of a broken stock top retainer and the other 10 were discussions about what if.
No posts of broken beehives of any brand. Of Course this does not mean a beehive has never broken, all brands and designs of valve springs have had failures. It does seem to indicate there is a low enough rate of failure that they do not fall in the category of lifters, early 6 speed comps, early cam chain adjusters, oem inner cam bearing, plated cylinders, M-8 sumping and the rest.

In this area we all run beehives, everything built locally for well over 10 years and I have never seen one problem, on the other hand we also run a large percentage of stock like quiet Wood cams.

[Don D]

Usually we see the threads popping up about the problem before we get the threads selling the cure here on HTT

I just did this search on "broken beehive spring" only 11 threads came up.
One had a picture of a broken stock top retainer and the other 10 were discussions about what if.
No posts of broken beehives of any brand. Of Course this does not mean a beehive has never broken, all brands and designs of valve springs have had failures. It does seem to indicate there is a low enough rate of failure that they do not fall in the category of lifters, early 6 speed comps, early cam chain adjusters, oem inner cam bearing, plated cylinders, M-8 sumping and the rest.

In this area we all run beehives, everything built locally for well over 10 years and I have never seen one problem, on the other hand we also run a large percentage of stock like quiet Wood cams.

Not all the failures are reported. I like the conicals and duals better for other reasons as well.

[Barrett]

When I asked the guy who did my S&S heads about the springs he told me they were fine.
I was ready to buy new ones if needed but decided to go with his thoughts on it.

[HD/Wrench]

I posted up pics a few years ago AVV 650 retainer failure Mild cam set at just over 1.800 the retainer broke where they had machined it . Other than that I have not had one fail the comp bee hives I have seen many of those break .

manley after they went over sea yep maybe half a dozen all inner's that failed never an outer 

[jsachs1]

I'm NOT a gambler. When you do heads for wholesale and retail, I won't take the chance on using beehive springs.
I've seen enough broken ones, of all brands, for me not to use or recommend them. It's that simple.
John

[wfolarry]

Use what you're comfortable with.
I've seen just as many dual springs break. There was a big name selling springs along with his cams. I seen more broken ones than I can count. S&S had a problem years ago with their retainers breaking. Changed the design & solved the problem. Dual springs with a flat wire damper are an accident waiting to happen but I know guys that swear by them. Dual springs are fine but there's no guarantee. Everybody has a favorite. I'm sticking with the beehives.

[Hossamania]

I should pull my old receipt from '05 and 90,000 miles ago when I had my heads done to see which ones are in mine. Only running Andrews 55's, but they have turned full rpms for long runs many, many times, not to mention how many thousands of times they ran to redline running through the gears, and they are still holding together. Now you guys have me thinking. I'm sure they are probably due. Lifters too....

[Hillside Motorcycle]

I install hundreds of the AV&V .650 springs every year & don't see any problems.
Not ready to yell 'the sky is falling' yet.

I agree.

[Don D]

Here is one I just finished.

[IronMike113]

Here is one I just finished.

Those look Nice 👍

[No Cents]

Here is one I just finished.

   what lift are those set up for Don?
They do look nice!   

[Don D]

.630 @ .050 from coil bind

[dave brode]

Comp's site is flaky;
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-7228-1

398# at .600", ", 412# at .630", if in at 1.800".

https://www.vthunder.com/conical-valve-springs-136-at1-800-412-at1-170.html

https://www.vthunder.com/conical-valve-springs-145-at1-900-495-at1-225.html

https://www.vthunder.com/conical-valve-springs-160-at1-900-495-at1-210.html

Dual shown here too. [stiff]

https://www.vthunder.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=conical

[Hilly13]

Will the conicals become the norm do you think? As in replacing beehives and straights in our world? I know next to nothing about them but reading on here there seems to be a gathering momentum in that direction.

[Don D]

Marketing trends matter as do stock levels.

[build it]

Will the conicals become the norm do you think? As in replacing beehives and straights in our world? I know next to nothing about them but reading on here there seems to be a gathering momentum in that direction.

No, no, it isn't gather momentum, it's slowed.

[No Cents]

    I see S&S is now supplying conical springs in their bolt on 124 kits for the M8's...it looks like the momentum is picking up. 

[attach=0,msg1279896]  [attach=1,msg1279896]   

[Don D]

Those are beehives despite them being called conical. Marketing

[kd]

 

[No Cents]

   I had to make a call to S&S when I got that e-mail with the above posted pictures to ask if they were supplying beehives...or conical springs with their 124 bolt on kit. I said to him that the picture you sent me the springs look to be beehives. The response he gave me was the picture does show beehive springs...but we are going to supply conical springs with our 124 kit. 

[Hilly13]

Ha, yo Build-it, looks like momentum lol

[build it]

Ha, yo Build-it, looks like momentum lol

Not in top levels of racing, I know that for a fact. HD performance lags between 10-30 years on the open market, depending on subject matter.

[Hilly13]

Ha, yo Build-it, looks like momentum lol

Not in top levels of racing, I know that for a fact. HD performance lags between 10-30 years on the open market, depending on subject matter.

Just kidding about mate, only a bit of humour.

[build it]

Ha, yo Build-it, looks like momentum lol

Not in top levels of racing, I know that for a fact. HD performance lags between 10-30 years on the open market, depending on subject matter.

Just kidding about mate, only a bit of humour.

All good my man

[joe_lyons]

Has anyone saw or used the Manley 99270 conical kit?

[Hillside Motorcycle]

S&S has had AV&V beehive springs(and valves) in their heads, and has sold them in kit form for several years now.

[Don D]

Has anyone saw or used the Manley 99270 conical kit?

I have a few sets, they are beehives

[joe_lyons]

Has anyone saw or used the Manley 99270 conical kit?

I have a few sets, they are beehives

Sneaky wording.

[dave brode]

Are the Manleys in that list USA made?

[Deye76]

Never mind found what I was looking for.

[Don D]

Manleys box doesn't show country of origin

[TorQuePimp]

Are the Manleys in that list USA made?

Manley's springs are made both off shore(South America) and pac makes some

The 99270 are offshore.....I use a lot of them zero issues other than I can't get 300m retainers for them anymore