Normal noise from primary after upgrades?

[Mick0311]

Since I'm snowed in from riding the bike, I decided to upgrade the primary components.
Bandit Clutch, Vulcan compensator eliminator and their manual chain adjuster.
Bandit recommends only using 14 ozs of Spectro Gold 80 vs Harleys rec of 34 ozs.

Is the noise coming from the primary indicative of going to a sold sprocket? It's quite noticeable over the stock compensator.
Does the fluid level have anything to do with it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb_l_Pxx8ow&feature=youtu.be

[koko3052]

WOW!.... way too noisy! 
1- 20 oz. difference in lube is way too much difference. Keep the lube at a level so the chain can pick it up.....or to the bottom of the teeth viewing from the cover.
2- did you mean "solid" sprocket over "sold"???
Yes that will make a difference also.
Sounds like the chain is hitting the case....you will be able to see that if you tear it down enough.

[Mick0311]

Solid, not sold. 

I sent an email off to Bandit just to clarify what they recommend for fluid amount.
I figured I'd be tearing the cover off again to see what's going on.
I had 5/8" freeplay in the chain for final adjustment.

[Ohio HD]

Did you check the front to rear sprocket alignment?

[itsafatboy]

you can add a little more fluid , I run bandit and add to bottom of chain ,

[Mick0311]

Alignment was good.
I'm going to pop off the cover tonight and see if there are any witness marks where there shouldn't be just to be safe.

[PoorUB]

Rotate the engins and check for tight or loose spots in the chain while you have it open.

All new components can be a bit noisy at first.

[IronMike113]

Wow that's really is noisy,Like posted earlier,The cover removal is inevitable,,,,,,,,,,

[peckerwood]

i have big noise also   coming from my comp. sprocket , i replaced it but still noisy , whats the diff. if i just fun a solid sprocket , what can i expect? 

[rageglide]

It's the Bandit clutch.  I had the exact same racket when I went to a Bandit.  I am using the latest SE compensator sprocket.  Initially I put in ATF and it was pretty horrendous.  Drained that and added a full qt of Belray Gearsaver 75W and it's back to normal and quiet.   

[peckerwood]

i'm running a T.P.P. Variable Pressure Clutch, everything fine except that knocking noise, does bigger   horse power  motors increase that  problem

[Mick0311]

Popped off the cover and saw no witness marks anywhere that the chain or anything else is rubbing.
Went through and readjusted the chain. Waiting on Amazon to deliver another qt of the spectro gold 80 tomorrow.
I'll add more than the recommended 14 ozs and see what happens.

I did notice that the oil I drained was pretty dark with a silver tint to it. Quite a bit of metal glitter in the oil too.
No big chunks so I'm chalking it up to just new metal on metal wearing in.

[sfmichael]

14oz sounds too low but I'm no expert

I usually run a qt although I've known some techs that leaned towards less (+/- 24oz)

[kd]

Is there any contact with the inside of the primary at the clutch area or derby screws?  Try running it without the primary cover on while you wait for the oil.

[smoserx1]

 
Exactly what I would do.

[Mick0311]

Is there any contact with the inside of the primary at the clutch area or derby screws?  Try running it without the primary cover on while you wait for the oil.

Funny you ask that. I was thinking about this waiting to fall asleep and decided to remove the clutch and just double check what's behind there. I also want to just double check the clutch basket/ shell too.

[Mick0311]

Found the noise.
Not sure why it's rubbing in there. I'm thinking it has to do with the stack height of the shell/ hub.

[TAD]

Inner primary bearing race has moved inward

[smoserx1]

Inner primary bearing race has moved inward

Isn't the clutch hub supposed to quit moving when the nut is fully tightened?  I thought the shoulder where the threads on the mainshaft end and the splines began  controlled how far inward it could go.  Could be wrong, but I had a race walk way inward and the clutch did not go with it.

[Coyote]

The race doesn't effect the stack up.

[Mick0311]

The race is a different animal that I need to fix now. Don't see where it affects stack height.

[Mick0311]

Since the inner race is a separate piece from the ipb, does anyone have a picture of how it normally sits on the input shaft?
What is the tolerance for too far in or out?

[Ohio HD]

Are you sure you have the right year parts in there?


http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=71015.msg772746#msg772746

[Mick0311]

Are you sure you have the right year parts in there?


http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=71015.msg772746#msg772746

37906-11 is the new bearing I put in per the SM.

[Coyote]

Push the race on until there is just enough room left to get the removal tool behind it. 1/8" or so I'd guess but I just use the removal tool as a guide when I press them on. It's not real critical though.

[Mick0311]

At this point, I don't think the race is an issue.
I was able to press the hub a little more into the shell. That should give me the clearance now.
That brings up the issue (if there is one) of the gap between the bearing and the snap ring.   

[Coyote]

At this point, I don't think the race is an issue.

Nope. 

[JMHD]

Is it possible that the inner clutch hub is a 2011 and earlier? they changed the inner hub bearing to a thinner one in 2011 1/2 as well as the inner hub. it sounds like the hub is an early style. I have had to get a new cir-clip groove machined in this case before to make the different styles work. My problem was a 2011 and earlier outer (thick bearing) with a 2011 later inner hub ( thin bearing) , yours might be the other way around. I will try and attach a picture, it shows no groove exposed , yours ( cir-clip groove) would be above the bearing if i am thinking correctly. Hope this helps.

[JMHD]

Just realized Ohio HD posted a link to the same idea on page 1.

[Mick0311]

It's the hub that Bandit supplies with their clutches.

[Mick0311]

Here is a side by side of the hub. Bandit on the left and stock on the right.
Big difference in where the ring groove is.

Also, there isn't room in the shell for a thicker bearing (referenced earlier) unless you were to cut a new ring groove.

[JMHD]

You could either get a new earlier style outer hub and earlier thicker bearing or get another snap ring groove cut in the bandit inner hub that you have. Getting the new groove cut would be the cheapest option.

[Mick0311]

I guess I had hoped that Bandit would have taken into consideration where the ring groove needs to be. 
I do have an email out to them.

[jamminhd2000]

Push the race on until there is just enough room left to get the removal tool behind it. 1/8" or so I'd guess but I just use the removal tool as a guide when I press them on. It's not real critical though.

I think the spec is .100...Jimmy

[kd]

Call Bandit.  They offer a non HD bearing for the 2011 that you can buy at a jobber instead of the MOCO.  You need the hub to matchup.  You may have the wrong parts combination.

[kd]

After thinking back, I believe it was the EVO Industries parts that I had with the bearing upgrade. Bandit may however be using their parts (I think Barnett does too).  Either way, confirming from Bandit what you purchased will answer that question.  They are very helpful.

[Mick0311]

John from Bandit replied back. He said there should be 2 ring grooves on the hub. One for the newer bearing and one for the older wider one.

Brought the clutch to work today and used a "real" press. Sure enough, found the 2nd groove. 

[kd]

    He da man. 

[Ohio HD]

That would do it!

So will the two sprockets now be out of alignment?

[JMHD]

 

[Mick0311]

That would do it!

So will the two sprockets now be out of alignment?

 
Everything should line up as stock. I'll know for sure when I get home and install this.

[Ohio HD]

That would do it!

So will the two sprockets now be out of alignment?

 
Everything should line up as stock. I'll know for sure when I get home and install this.

I ask because you said they were aligned when I asked before. So now you moved the hub on the bearing.  sooo...       

[Mick0311]

That would do it!

So will the two sprockets now be out of alignment?

 
Everything should line up as stock. I'll know for sure when I get home and install this.

I ask because you said they were aligned when I asked before. So now you moved the hub on the bearing.  sooo...       

I ended up pushing the hub in just the thickness of the second ring groove.

[Ohio HD]

That would do it!

So will the two sprockets now be out of alignment?

 
Everything should line up as stock. I'll know for sure when I get home and install this.

I ask because you said they were aligned when I asked before. So now you moved the hub on the bearing.  sooo...       

I ended up pushing the hub in just the thickness of the second ring groove.

That's about 0.060" ? I'd check the sprocket alignment.

[Mick0311]

After getting a ride in finally, I'm happy with the results overall for the short time I've rifdden.

Pros: No more clunky shifts into first gear, easier start when cold

Cons: Whirring noise from primary, clutch engagement moved out towards the ends of the throw

[koko3052]

I'd say the whirring is from different sprocket/chain/adjuster alignment.....0.060"...
I'm presuming that you readjusted the clutch after moving the bearing?

[Mick0311]

I had to readjust the clutch since it was taken apart. Bandit calls out for no more than .010 runout on the pressure plate.

[hogpipes1]

Good that it is running great.What amt of pri oil did you use?

[Mick0311]

Good that it is running great.What amt of pri oil did you use?

Picked 20 ounces to go in the primary.

[Mick0311]

Had time today to dig back into the primary. Double checked the sprocket alignment and it's square.
But what I did learn is there are timing marks that need to be matched up on the hub and pressure plate.
Just another critical instruction among others left off their work instructions.   

In the process of reinstalling the pressure plate I managed to break off a 1/4-20 socket head.
Now I have to dig the remnants out.

[Ohio HD]

It's in my instructions.


[attach=0]

[319fatboy]

 [attach=1,msg1283786] The instructions I got with mine did not mention the timing marks. Wonder if I got lucky and got mine lined up? Guess I will have to take it apart and see? [attach=0,msg1283786] 

[Mick0311]

It's in my instructions.


[attach=0,msg1283779]

You're also missing the correct disc stack height for hydraulic clutches.
You almost have to print out all their instructions and then combine to correctly install one of their clutches.

[Ohio HD]

It's in my instructions.


[attach=0,msg1283779]

You're also missing the correct disc stack height for hydraulic clutches.
You almost have to print out all their instructions and then combine to correctly install one of their clutches.

I'm not missing it. Mine isn't hydraulic.

[04rkryder]

You guys have 2 different instructions:

Ohio has "http://www.banditmachineworks.com/techinfo_instr2.htm"

Mick has "http://www.banditmachineworks.com/techinfo_instr3.htm"

The instr3 is the one you get using the current Tech Info tab

[Mick0311]

Instr3 covers both hydraulic and cable which is what came with my clutch.
Yet it's missing a couple key instructions such as timing marks and reusing the release plate for hydraulic clutches.

[jmorton10]

The Phase 3 Competitor Clutch I ran for years (which looked/worked exactly the same as my Bandit clutch) had the dots on the pressure plate/clutch hub to be aligned.

My Bandit clutch has no such marks however.  Either Bandit forgot to mark them, or it doesn't matter anymore.

~John

[Mick0311]

Finally had time tonight to remove the broken fastener from the hub.
Put it all back together matching the marks and it's a lot quieter.
Stuck with 20 ozs of the Spectro Gold.

[Mick0311]

Since the new car I haven't ridden the scoot much so I wanted to do an update on the whirring noise. OCD kicks in because I don't "think" I should be having this noise. I'm not happy having the bike sound like a Jetsons spaceship.

I took off the primary and started to remove the clutch. As I start removing the springs from the hub I'm noticing they are dry. No oil dripping off them. I start removing a couple discs and see they are bone dry other than the oil I soaked them in prior to installing.

It appears that the clutch is not getting an oil bath that I'm used to seeing the clutch have. Now I'm wondering if this is the cause of the whirring noise. I am not seeing any scorching on the couple discs that I removed. According to Bandit's instructions they say the chain will pick up the fluid to lubricate the clutch. I'm not seeing that happen.


I'll send an email to Bandit and also see what they have to say.

[Hossamania]

Are you putting in enough oil to touch the bottom of the clutch basket?

[Mick0311]

According to Bandit, 14 oz is all that is required.
I think I found the culprit. Popped the hub out from the basket and found this. No bueno.

[rigidthumper]

That'll cause a noise!

[jmorton10]

I am running 14 ounces of Redline Primary oil in mine ever since I installed a Bandit Sportsman clutch.

Since clutch plates don't need oil (they work just fine in an open primary belt drive setup), the only thing that would worry me about that small an amount of oil is what it might do to the compensator. I am not running a compensator so that's not a worry for me.

~John

[Mick0311]

I am running 14 ounces of Redline Primary oil in mine ever since I installed a Bandit Sportsman clutch.

Since clutch plates don't need oil (they work just fine in an open primary belt drive setup), the only thing that would worry me about that small an amount of oil is what it might do to the compensator. I am not running a compensator so that's not a worry for me.

~John

No compensator in mine either. My concern is the bearings. Are they getting enough oil to them?