rubbermounted kick starter

[daniele_1983]

HI!! Does someone know anything about that?? it's a kick starter kit for 2007- up sportster (there is another kit available for 2004-06).

http://www.vtwinmfg.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/VTwinProd1_10101_10102_3388057_-1

I know this kit is not essential for my bike, in any case I like it. the problem is it needs to substitute the mainshaft and so to completely disassembly tranny.

So I have an idea: to machine the existing shaft with a lathe to create a screw for the kicker gear.

this are on-line photos, I didn't try it on my bike. the question is: could this be a way??


this is the 5ft by itself:



this is what we see from the motorcycle right side:



if I remove the protection cap I see the master cylinder and now I can try to machine it.



if I remove the fifth cap can I have oil leaks ??

Thanks

regards. Daniele

[farmall]

You need to extend the mainshaft so you need to pull the transmission no matter how you attack the problem (with the exception I mention below).

If pulling a tranmission bothers you it would be wise to leave the machine stock since a kicker is more for appearance on any HD including yours with a Denso starter which are highly reliable and can use pushbutton end covers if your relay or switch or wiring fail (or you want them gone for a chopper).

Explain your situation better. What year is your machine? If it's a rubber mount pulling the mainshaft is stupid because there's no trap door. If you want a kicker you could install all but the ratchet parts and have a kicker for looks, or mount a microswitch so your kicker powers the start relay.

A mainshaft extension would be better made as a cylinder with a male thead on each end for ease of machining (and in case you scrap the first one which beats scrapping a mainshaft). Don't just use a right and left hand thread stud with a bushing slid over it instead of a one-piece extension because that wouldn't be nearly as rigid.

You can see the shaft overall length differences and where the seal goes.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2bnomlBT8s

As an old mechanic who grew up kicking and still does when necessary (Nortons, Triumphs, my Ironhead) I wouldn't install an Evo Sporty kicker kit on my own Evo Sporty if it were free, It's trivially easy to keep the stock Denso starters working fine with a pushbutton solenoid cover as backup. Contact kits are cheap and a breeze to install.

Unless you cannot get a kit from Led Sled I'd avoid Taiwan kits because soft ratchet gears can hurt your knee when they strip.

If you are patient there's one way to do it with the shaft installed but it's a lot of work and full of potential pitfalls. You could remove the end cap, turn a guide bushing to snugly fit the end cap hole,  then use the bushing to center drill (no twist drills, they walk which you know as a machinist but other readers may not) the shaft then drill and tap for a shaft extension with two male ends. You'd need a guide bushing for each drill size you use. How you hold the tap to keep it straight is up to you.

The extension will provide standoff for the kicker gear from the main shaft and permit use a seal of your choice.

I'd turn a custom prick punch to fit the guide bushing then mark the shaft end then measure to ensure the punch mark is concentric to the shaft. Then I'd drill and ream to final size. Your shaft extension must be concentric to the shaft or it will do bad things to your seal.

[daniele_1983]

thank you very much for the answer! I need a little time to completely understand it cause I'm not an expert mechanic and not so skilled with technical english.

In any case I want a kicker cause every two years the battery looses its power and if electric falls in the middle of nothing there is no way to turn the motor on. (I think there isn't a way to turn the solenoid with a dead battery and a push-starter with no one helping You is a mess...)

After I've installed the kit I think I have to modify timing to make it working and avoid kick back, isn't it?

thank you again for helping

[Pete_Vit]

If you have a dead battery and think a kicker can help on a 2009 I think your SOL, (Out of luck), you still need some power for the electronic ignition and if you are FI you need power for the pump and control modules. I may be wrong, but unless you change it all over to a magneto ignition + carbed you can't do what you want... guys??? am I wrong?

[tmwmoose]

If you have a dead battery and think a kicker can help on a 2009 I think your SOL, (Out of luck), you still need some power for the electronic ignition and if you are FI you need power for the pump and control modules. I may be wrong, but unless you change it all over to a magneto ignition + carbed you can't do what you want... guys??? am I wrong?

If the battery is 100% dead yeah you need a mag, but it  can go down and not operate a starter but have enough for a ignition and some of the electronic ignition stuff can work with less than 12 volts as well. I have never heard of a efi motor with a kick start

[Pete_Vit]

If you have a dead battery and think a kicker can help on a 2009 I think your SOL, (Out of luck), you still need some power for the electronic ignition and if you are FI you need power for the pump and control modules. I may be wrong, but unless you change it all over to a magneto ignition + carbed you can't do what you want... guys??? am I wrong?

If the battery is 100% dead yeah you need a mag, but it  can go down and not operate a starter but have enough for a ignition and some of the electronic ignition stuff can work with less than 12 volts as well. I have never heard of a efi motor with a kick start

yeah I hate to assume it was EFI, but i'm not too familiar with newer Sporties, if they all started coming with EFI after a certain year. 

[daniele_1983]

No, I was EFI, but now I've converted to Mikuni HSR 42. I think a mag is quite  exagerate to me, cause a 2009 sportyu does have nothing under nosecone. I think a battery not cpmpletely dead but just weak can give power to the sparks if I have a kicker

[daniele_1983]

dear Farmall, I've seen the LedSLed video very carefully and I see the kicker mainshaft has exacltly the same lenght of ne original one. the only difference is the hole for the kicker gear.

my fear is that I sould remove the mainshaft cap, verify if it is possible to machine it, close the bike with his seal, buy the kit, re-open the mainshaft and machine it. but I don't know if I have oil leakage after removing the seal for the first time...

[PC_Hater]

The Led Sled Kicker Kit fits Sportsters up to 2003 only.
It will NOT fit your 2009 Sportster.

To work on the transmission on your bike you have to remove the engine from the frame and take it all apart.
If you are clever enough and have the machine tools to do it you could use the Led Sled Kit as the starting point and then make whatever special parts you need.
It won't be easy!

Does your ignition system fire the plugs immediately or does it need one complete revolution before it will fire the plugs? If so, you can forget about kickstarting. You can get modern ignition systems that work with kickstarts - try Daytona Twin-Tec.

[Hossamania]

Buy one of those little micro start units and put it in your saddle bag or pocket. It will jumpstart your bike no problem. A lot easier than custom installing a Kickstarter.

[Panzer]

Your right Pete, 07 and up are FI.

daniele_1983, I'd steer clear of doing this day dream you have.
You doing this yourself?  If so figure having the bike laid up for 6 months or more.
Having a shop do it?  Better have deep pockets.

Just my .02

[Xyzzy]

...and can use pushbutton end covers if your relay or switch or wiring fail (or you want them gone for a chopper).

What is this and how does it work?

[daniele_1983]

I think HD is the only bike you can customise bolt by bolt!!! And this to me is more satisfying than ride itself!!!

[Panzer]

...and can use pushbutton end covers if your relay or switch or wiring fail (or you want them gone for a chopper).

What is this and how does it work?

Xyzzy,
It's like......well, you install a push button switch to connect to the starter.
When you push the switch it connects the positive + on the starter and negative - to ground.
Your acting like the starter button.

[Hossamania]

...and can use pushbutton end covers if your relay or switch or wiring fail (or you want them gone for a chopper).

What is this and how does it work?

Xyzzy,
It's like......well, you install a push button switch to connect to the starter.
When you push the switch it connects the positive + on the starter and negative - to ground.
Your acting like the starter button.

It bolts directly on to the end of the starter, replacing the plate.

[DanThe Man]

...and can use pushbutton end covers if your relay or switch or wiring fail (or you want them gone for a chopper).

What is this and how does it work?

Xyzzy,
It's like......well, you install a push button switch to connect to the starter.
When you push the switch it connects the positive + on the starter and negative - to ground.
Your acting like the starter button.

It bolts directly on to the end of the starter, replacing the plate.

Yep, I had one on my pos 03 Ultra, it must have been built on a monday or a friday. It beat digging in the bag for a piece of wire  and pulling back the rubber boot to start it.

[daniele_1983]

Ok, there are lots of systems to charge batteries and start a dead motor, but I prefer to discuss about the kicker.
Does anyone know the OEM number of the cap at the end of the fifth gear I have in photos?? Is this rubber or metal? Can it be removed to main shaft ispection?

[hogpipes1]

ck with Ronnie's Harley  shop  on line  in PA, they  have  real good  micro films /part # and pic's of  many yrs worth of Harleys.

[daniele_1983]

thank you! my problem is to order the  plug at the end of the 5fth gear, but I cannot see a code!

[PC_Hater]

from the 2009 Sportster parts list at
http://partsfinder.onlinemicrofiche.com/ronnies/showmodel.asp?Type=13&make=%20TRANSMISSION%20GEARS

item 15: seal, part number:12030

possibly you need item 7: Bearing, Ball part number:8964
it consists of items 6, 14, and 17 which are sold as the single kit of parts item 7

[harley_cruiser]

Ok, correct me if I am wrong, but as PC said the rubber mounted transmission did away with the trap door so in order to remove the fifth gear main shaft the engine has to be split.

[PC_Hater]

Ok, correct me if I am wrong, but as PC said the rubber mounted transmission did away with the trap door so in order to remove the fifth gear main shaft the engine has to be split.

Yes. A big shock to traditional Sportster owners, but to those of us who took their T140V engine apart in the kitchen sink, well, what's the problem!
It's not like you do it everyday, once in 88,000 miles on my Bonneville, and that was only to fit go-faster cams.

[harley_cruiser]

Ok, correct me if I am wrong, but as PC said the rubber mounted transmission did away with the trap door so in order to remove the fifth gear main shaft the engine has to be split.

Yes. A big shock to traditional Sportster owners, but to those of us who took their T140V engine apart in the kitchen sink, well, what's the problem!
It's not like you do it everyday, once in 88,000 miles on my Bonneville, and that was only to fit go-faster cams.

Yea, I had a t120 that I bought with a thrown rod through the bottom of the case, I pulled it apart had the case welded, and we put it back together with used parts. Gees that was a life time ago.
Back on topic, I get the feeling that the OP does not know that the motor needs split, and he has said he is no expert mechanic so that is why I pointed it out.

[PC_Hater]

Ok, correct me if I am wrong, but as PC said the rubber mounted transmission did away with the trap door so in order to remove the fifth gear main shaft the engine has to be split.

Yes. A big shock to traditional Sportster owners, but to those of us who took their T140V engine apart in the kitchen sink, well, what's the problem!
It's not like you do it everyday, once in 88,000 miles on my Bonneville, and that was only to fit go-faster cams.

Yea, I had a t120 that I bought with a thrown rod through the bottom of the case, I pulled it apart had the case welded, and we put it back together with used parts. Gees that was a life time ago.
Back on topic, I get the feeling that the OP does not know that the motor needs split, and he has said he is no expert mechanic so that is why I pointed it out.

My written French is shocking so I can't help him as much as I would like... If he can convert an EFI Sportster to carb he can't be that bad. But it will be no mean feat if he does it!

[Hossamania]

His reason for wanting to do it is solid - because people modify Harley Davidson in ways that people think can't be done. Brilliant! I would love to see it happen.

[hogpipes1]

Ok, correct me if I am wrong, but as PC said the rubber mounted transmission did away with the trap door so in order to remove the fifth gear main shaft the engine has to be split.

Yep been that way sense 04. 1 st yr of rubber mount . If you want to hot rod up a sporty  For the st.  91-03 best yrs.   5 speed & belt  good start point.

[Xyzzy]

It wouldn't be popular and sell but:

I would buy a Sportster that was kick-start only.

Fit a small lithium battery to power the fuel pump. It probably could be the size of a pack of cigarettes.

I bet it would kick-start easily!

[daniele_1983]

thank you PC Hater. I wouldn't be able to find the code alone. what a pity Ronnie's doesn't send outside USA (is this part of the Trump policy?? 😁)
I know a 04 up sporty doesn't have the trap door and so to install this kit is a mess. I hope to avoid disassembly but it's an uphill road (I don't know if in English there is this eay of saying)
I know also that someone can buy a motorcycle and do just minor customisation but - first of all - I think harley davidsons have lost lots of their appeal with the EFI and then if I were rich enought I would have bought simply the motor, frame, fork, tranny, wheels ecc and created the motorcycle by myself. A real custom!! but I'm not rich and also in Europe this is quite illegal or very difficult to realize. So I have bought a relatively cheap sporty and then I play to be Harlen Ness 😎

[daniele_1983]

by the way: is the mainshaft hardened or tempered steel or is it normal carbon steel? this makes giant difference in remachining

[Backyard Mech]

Bump wrong post

[J.Kinkade]

If you got a kicker on a rubber sporty, you would see engine move on runner mounts when you kick, I would expect, but would be very hard to fire up, as the new ignitions fire every second s turn of motor, primary ratio not 2 to 1 so one kick would not spin motor over enough.
I was kick start only on an old stroker Shovel 98 cubic inch, fired every stroke. I loved it.
but I kick started an iron head sporty was harder to kick than the shovel as lower primary ration, the sporty kicked back too.
if you really want a kicker, go back to carb & points ignition.

[daniele_1983]

ok, there is an aftermarket ignition module, daytona Twintec TCFI4 that permit you to set the spark fire at the thirth, second or first motor turn. you can also set the advance to 0 to avoid kick back. the German Altmann P3 also does the same things. but I prefer Daytona cause it's easier to install and still maintain the map sensor.
In another forum, Chopcult, people discuss about re-open the nosecone, that in a 2004-up is plugged, and so you can install points or stand alone ignitions. but I don't know how can you time the bike, modern sportsters don't have the inspection hole and the timing marks...

[PC_Hater]

For setting the timing you would have to remove the primary cover and make some marks on the engine sprocket or the alternator rotor. Then make up a pointer that you can hold in place using the primary cover  screws.
I think that will be the easy part of your kickstart conversion!

[daniele_1983]

Well, to change from electronic to points I think I have the complete parts list:
- cam modification to accept rotor (as posted here. what a pity vulcan ignition is out of stock...
http://vulcanworks.net/Sportster-Cam-Cover-With-Ignition-Finned-2004-Up-p-17177.html
- 2003 cam cover
- timing rotor
- complete mechanical advance kit
- new coil is necessary?
- but without the timing hole I did not understand how to time the bike.
you speak about to operate from the left side, disassembling the primary cover before, but I think it is a bit difficult. any photos to show it better??

in any case an ignition module based from crank sensor is a good alternative to me...

[farmall]

Ask your machinist if he can drill a transmission shaft that long. I expect he'd chuck the shaft in a lathe and use a "gun drill" extended length bit. Solid carbide extended bits are available.  As it's an unusual job I'd expect to pay for the bit. Common "carbon" steel (1018 etc) isn't suited to transmission shafts (and is nasty to machine). Shaft is likely surface hardened. Carbide won't be bothered as it's suitable for drilling hardened steel.

In any case I want a kicker cause every two years the battery looses its power and if electric falls in the middle of nothing there is no way to turn the motor on.

Use a battery tender if the bike sits. Load test the battery if in doubt (auto stores usually have a load tester or you can buy one).  Batteries aren't immortal. If I store a bike long term I bring the battery indoors and leave it on a tender. Two years is about an average battery life.

If you have a battery with a shorted cell and manage to kick start, that battery can damage the rest of your charging system.

[Panzer]

Giving it more thought.................
Let's say that the battery is to low to start the bike, now we go to the kick starter.
As Daniele has said, there is still enough juice to fire the plugs and it fires up, all well and good at this point.
The problem is that the bike uses electric for the headlight, speedo and taillight, not to mention running lights once it's running.
Even though the bike started by the kicker, it will not stay running unless Daniele has a main switch to shut down all electrical use sources.   Even then I don't believe the bike will go far.

JMHO

[farmall]

I think OP really wants a kicker for the cool factor and rationalizes it using the flat battery argument. Dropping over two thousand bucks between the Vulcan cam cover, the Led Sled kit, custom machining, and tearing down the engine to put the mainshaft in a lathe doesn't compare favorably with buying batteries.

Here are some pics of the Led Sled kit for solid-mount Sportsters http://www.chopcult.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27170

They show why the shaft is best drilled and tapped in a lathe to ensure the new ratchet hole and threads are concentric with the shaft. On second thought a standard length carbide bit should be long enough. Carbide will cut through the surface hardening so tapping (which should also be done in the lathe) should be easy enough afterward.

[farmall]

Problem solved. OP can now buy a kit for his machine. I've no idea if these are any good, but if not he'll still have the cool factor.  Vendor below is an example. They are V-Twin kits and not made in USA. I would have the original mainshaft drilled and tapped on a lathe to match the replacement since V-Twin quality varies and the mainshaft is a precision part. If anything outside the trans malfunctions that's easy to replace.

https://www.steelthundercc.com/kickstart.html