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AFR help please with stock 114 M8

Started by Adam76, November 13, 2018, 10:18:27 PM

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Adam76

Hi, not sure exactly where to post this,  but would love to get a straight answer from some of the tuning guys.

Firstly -- my 2 dealerships say the M8 runs significantly richer out of the crate than the twin cam 103 ever did.... Is this true?  *** I have seen many dyno charts of stock 114s ***  but none with the AFR showing??

Second -- I have a new (old stock)  2018 114 Heritage Softail bone stock and dealer says i can put a FULL true dual freedom exhaust system on without it running too lean..... They say there ids NO  need for a tuner or even a download of any sort when adding full exhaust system only  (no a/c change from the factory ventilator air cleaner)...

Thanks for anyone who has any AFR data on these scenarios to clear this up.

Apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere,  I could not find any info.

Thanks

KE5RBD

Guy here put a short 2 in 1 on his 18 114 softail and it runs fine with no tuner. 
2019 FLHTK Hammock Seat S&S MK 45 Slip ons Street Tuner.

1FSTRK

Quote from: Adam76 on November 13, 2018, 10:18:27 PM
Firstly -- my 2 dealerships say the M8 runs significantly richer out of the crate than the twin cam 103 ever did.... Is this true?  *** I have seen many dyno charts of stock 114s ***  but none with the AFR showing??

The AFR numbers are set by the government Emissions standards. Ask them how a twin cam and M-8 can both meet the same standard with one of them running richer than the other.


Quote from: Adam76 on November 13, 2018, 10:18:27 PM
-- I have a new (old stock)  2018 114 Heritage Softail bone stock and dealer says i can put a FULL true dual freedom exhaust system on without it running too lean..... They say there ids NO  need for a tuner or even a download of any sort when adding full exhaust system only  (no a/c change from the factory ventilator air cleaner)...

Thanks for anyone who has any AFR data on these scenarios to clear this up.

Apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere,  I could not find any info.

Thanks

Once again the 107 and 114 have to meet the same standard.
Here is what happened with a dealer installed kit step by step.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=100984.msg1185116#msg1185116

I assure you fuel was added not taken away.
The thing to remember is No bike leaves the factory tuned for the best performance or even the best engine life, They get a tune that will pass government regulations and not hurt the engine so bad that it won't make it out of the warranty period. There are examples of totally stock bikes that after being tuned pick up power, run cooler and run much smoother.

If you are asking can someone run a bike with an exhaust change and no tuning change the answer is yes, people do it every day but they are either ignorant or indifferent of the effects. If you are asking if it will hurt the over all performance and life of the engine over time the answer is also yes. 
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

HD/Wrench

Runs fine  Well OK being this is a tech forum I tune for a living . so to me Fine is not what we are looking for .

I think many would be shocked at what " fine" is   the HD engine will run and not really give you issues if the AFR is in the 12.5- 16.5 range  Now it the EX is a loud it may ping you may  not hear it ECM grabs the timing pulls it back .  Now heat or washing cylinders down is a entirely different discussion.


Take two 107 engines same ex and tune both of them . I have sen 10-15% changes in that tune alone .


Runs yes it will , runs efficiently not a chance  .


Bike should be tuned when you make changes like that . Good luck

Adam76

Thanks guys,  I have to seriously wonder how a salesmen of 30 years experience with HD, somebody I would consider honest and have bought multiple bikes com over the years would look me square in the eye and tell me how these new M8s run richer from the factory,  and even if you put a full exhaust system on it won't run lean like the twin cams!!!  Unbelievable  🤤

1FSTRK

Quote from: Adam76 on November 15, 2018, 02:47:49 PM
Thanks guys,  I have to seriously wonder how a salesmen of 30 years experience with HD, somebody I would consider honest and have bought multiple bikes com over the years would look me square in the eye and tell me how these new M8s run richer from the factory,  and even if you put a full exhaust system on it won't run lean like the twin cams!!!  Unbelievable  🤤

He is a salesman, he is factory trained to sell and believes what they tell him. Just like most young factory trained mechanics, not dishonest just misled and true believers that never think to question.
Sometimes they just misinterpret what they are told. The newer ECM strategies do have a wider range of adjustment compared to the early bikes but they still adjust to the same target number and that is just to lean for anything but meeting the emissions numbers. The ignition timing is as big a concern as AFR and over looked by most. 
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Adam76

Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 15, 2018, 03:07:46 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on November 15, 2018, 02:47:49 PM
Thanks guys,  I have to seriously wonder how a salesmen of 30 years experience with HD, somebody I would consider honest and have bought multiple bikes com over the years would look me square in the eye and tell me how these new M8s run richer from the factory,  and even if you put a full exhaust system on it won't run lean like the twin cams!!!  Unbelievable  🤤

He is a salesman, he is factory trained to sell and believes what they tell him. Just like most young factory trained mechanics, not dishonest just misled and true believers that never think to question.
Sometimes they just misinterpret what they are told. The newer ECM strategies do have a wider range of adjustment compared to the early bikes but they still adjust to the same target number and that is just to lean for anything but meeting the emissions numbers. The ignition timing is as big a concern as AFR and over looked by most.
👍👍 thanks,  I will get the TTS with the bike and at least download / reflash to start with. 

sandrooney

I know they all can benefit from a good tune. I have a Heritage 114 and am at this point anyway leaving it stock. Is the stock tune on the 114 good enough as to not harm the engine?
Patience is such a waste of time .

1FSTRK

Quote from: sandrooney on November 18, 2018, 09:18:43 AM
I know they all can benefit from a good tune. I have a Heritage 114 and am at this point anyway leaving it stock. Is the stock tune on the 114 good enough as to not harm the engine?

It will definitely make the end of the warranty as far as tune related failure.
I tend to put a lot of miles on and good enough is a relative term. High heat and detonation is not good for any engine and that is what you get with a epa tune. Remember neither Ion sensing nor knock sensors cause the ecm to retard timing until after the detonation has occurred. That means the entire time you are riding those things are happening over and over. Now add a muffler change and no tuner or a make believe tuner and you can imagine what that engine has to endure mile after mile. Better yet run an hour with a data logger on it and see it in real time.

If you get a new bike every couple years the long term damage you do is someone else's problem but don't kid yourself it is happening. It is up to each one of us to decide what is good enough as long as we don't make that decision out of ignorance or from being misled.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Hossamania

Quote from: sandrooney on November 18, 2018, 09:18:43 AM
I know they all can benefit from a good tune. I have a Heritage 114 and am at this point anyway leaving it stock. Is the stock tune on the 114 good enough as to not harm the engine?

See the link in reply #2.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

rbabos

Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 18, 2018, 09:38:10 AM
Quote from: sandrooney on November 18, 2018, 09:18:43 AM
I know they all can benefit from a good tune. I have a Heritage 114 and am at this point anyway leaving it stock. Is the stock tune on the 114 good enough as to not harm the engine?

It will definitely make the end of the warranty as far as tune related failure.
I tend to put a lot of miles on and good enough is a relative term. High heat and detonation is not good for any engine and that is what you get with a epa tune. Remember neither Ion sensing nor knock sensors cause the ecm to retard timing until after the detonation has occurred. That means the entire time you are riding those things are happening over and over. Now add a muffler change and no tuner or a make believe tuner and you can imagine what that engine has to endure mile after mile. Better yet run an hour with a data logger on it and see it in real time.

If you get a new bike every couple years the long term damage you do is someone else's problem but don't kid yourself it is happening. It is up to each one of us to decide what is good enough as long as we don't make that decision out of ignorance or from being misled.
While on the most part I agree however some tunes I've seen contribute to oil dilution and shorten the life span that way. Too damn far the other way. They do run cooler though. :hyst: Key words are good tune and we know that isn't the norm.
Ron

1FSTRK

November 18, 2018, 12:09:24 PM #11 Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 12:31:28 PM by 1FSTRK
Quote from: rbabos on November 18, 2018, 11:52:04 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 18, 2018, 09:38:10 AM
Quote from: sandrooney on November 18, 2018, 09:18:43 AM
I know they all can benefit from a good tune. I have a Heritage 114 and am at this point anyway leaving it stock. Is the stock tune on the 114 good enough as to not harm the engine?

It will definitely make the end of the warranty as far as tune related failure.
I tend to put a lot of miles on and good enough is a relative term. High heat and detonation is not good for any engine and that is what you get with a epa tune. Remember neither Ion sensing nor knock sensors cause the ecm to retard timing until after the detonation has occurred. That means the entire time you are riding those things are happening over and over. Now add a muffler change and no tuner or a make believe tuner and you can imagine what that engine has to endure mile after mile. Better yet run an hour with a data logger on it and see it in real time.

If you get a new bike every couple years the long term damage you do is someone else's problem but don't kid yourself it is happening. It is up to each one of us to decide what is good enough as long as we don't make that decision out of ignorance or from being misled.
While on the most part I agree however some tunes I've seen contribute to oil dilution and shorten the life span that way. Too damn far the other way. They do run cooler though. :hyst: Key words are good tune and we know that isn't the norm.
Ron

So you offer a third alternative, the bad tune. Not sure why anyone would consider that an option.
I would lump that in with all the snake oil, ad-on canned tune or fueler products which for me are no option either.

With the three options now being EPA cals, quality professional tune, and your option the bad tune,

I will still go with the Quality professional tune every time.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

sandrooney

Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 18, 2018, 09:38:10 AM
Quote from: sandrooney on November 18, 2018, 09:18:43 AM
I know they all can benefit from a good tune. I have a Heritage 114 and am at this point anyway leaving it stock. Is the stock tune on the 114 good enough as to not harm the engine?

It will definitely make the end of the warranty as far as tune related failure.
I tend to put a lot of miles on and good enough is a relative term. High heat and detonation is not good for any engine and that is what you get with a epa tune. Remember neither Ion sensing nor knock sensors cause the ecm to retard timing until after the detonation has occurred. That means the entire time you are riding those things are happening over and over. Now add a muffler change and no tuner or a make believe tuner and you can imagine what that engine has to endure mile after mile. Better yet run an hour with a data logger on it and see it in real time.

If you get a new bike every couple years the long term damage you do is someone else's problem but don't kid yourself it is happening. It is up to each one of us to decide what is good enough as long as we don't make that decision out of ignorance or from being misled.

So you are saying that even with an SE tuner which only tunes within EPA parameters, damage will still occur?
Patience is such a waste of time .

rbabos

Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 18, 2018, 12:09:24 PM
Quote from: rbabos on November 18, 2018, 11:52:04 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 18, 2018, 09:38:10 AM
Quote from: sandrooney on November 18, 2018, 09:18:43 AM
I know they all can benefit from a good tune. I have a Heritage 114 and am at this point anyway leaving it stock. Is the stock tune on the 114 good enough as to not harm the engine?

It will definitely make the end of the warranty as far as tune related failure.
I tend to put a lot of miles on and good enough is a relative term. High heat and detonation is not good for any engine and that is what you get with a epa tune. Remember neither Ion sensing nor knock sensors cause the ecm to retard timing until after the detonation has occurred. That means the entire time you are riding those things are happening over and over. Now add a muffler change and no tuner or a make believe tuner and you can imagine what that engine has to endure mile after mile. Better yet run an hour with a data logger on it and see it in real time.

If you get a new bike every couple years the long term damage you do is someone else's problem but don't kid yourself it is happening. It is up to each one of us to decide what is good enough as long as we don't make that decision out of ignorance or from being misled.
While on the most part I agree however some tunes I've seen contribute to oil dilution and shorten the life span that way. Too damn far the other way. They do run cooler though. :hyst: Key words are good tune and we know that isn't the norm.
Ron

So you offer a third alternative, the bad tune. Not sure why anyone would consider that an option.
I would lump that in with all the snake oil, ad-on canned tune or fueler products which for me are no option either.

With the three options now being EPA cals, quality professional tune, and your option the bad tune,

I will still go with the Quality professional tune every time.
I wasn't offering it as an option but it happens. Not all tunes are good so the word quality is somewhat vague.  I've talked to several v rod guys who paid for a good pro dyno tune from a full time tuner, ending up being crap and then redone by another pro with great running after. Same software, just one knows wtf he's doing , the other going through the motions and taking the money. This was with either stock cams or the SE cams, which one them claimed the ill running as result of the cams. That one, I actually helped the guy to get it running better since the original tuner didn't want to touch it. A couple, I sent to a well known tuner on this forum. They ended up being happy.
Ron