Advice on 2015 RGS 103HO stage 1 with 48k on the clock

[PoorUB]

If you have the heads off I would CC the heads and see where they end up. If they are 85CC the .030" head gasket will give you a nice bump and with a decent tune.

[Durwood]

Having already "been there done that" I would not remove the heads for the sole purpose of switching head gaskets to bump compression.

The work involved far outweighs the few % of power gained with the small compression increase. JMO

[Shadowbennie]

Having already "been there done that" I would not remove the heads for the sole purpose of switching head gaskets to bump compression.

The work involved far outweighs the few % of power gained with the small compression increase. JMO

Yeah, I totally get what you're saying, certainly a lot of work for a minimal gain. Unfortunately though, I had to pull the heads as my front cylinder had 70% loss on the compression leakdown test performed last weekend, air was rushing through the throttle body, so I pulled em both to at the very least do a valve job & freshen them up where necessary. Still deciding if I'm going to have them ported, but that's definitely more $$ than I had planned on spending 

I'm chalking it up to a chunk of carbon stuck my intake valve open when I cut the pushrods to install the cams, but I don't know this for sure, so why I'm looking at the very least, a refresh of seals & lapping the valves. I'm thinking it was just a hunk of carbon sticking it open though, as there were some pretty damn big chunks on top of the piston when I removed the front head and the bike was running well last fall when I shut 'er down for the winter -

Upon visual inspection, the valves look good in their seats and I've checked for large & obvious leaks by shining a small bore light into the intake port while covering the chamber to block ambient light, and also have poured some WD-40 in the chamber over the valve - not one drop made it through, so these two tests indicate that the valve isn't really out of whack...I'm sure that doesn't tell the whole story as 100psi of air is different than just letting a liquid sit on top of the valve, but I'd think at a 70% loss, either of my two tests would've revealed something.

All moot points I guess since they're off, thus why I'm even considering the .030 gasket. Otherwise, if both cylinders would've tested good (6% loss on the rear) I would've already had it back together and not bothered with anything else.

[PoorUB]

Like I said, if the heads are off use the .030" head gasket. I would not even hesitate.

[rigidthumper]

70% leakdown could very well have been a result of measuring with the piston at TDC overlap instead of TDC compression. If you have the heads off, prop them upright/level so you can fill the chambers with fluid- if it doesn't immediately leak into the ports, then the 70% leak down isn't accurate.


I like the additional benefits of running a tighter quench with the .030" head gaskets.

[Shadowbennie]

Like I said, if the heads are off use the .030" head gasket. I would not even hesitate.

Duly noted! It was the direction I was leaning - just making sure the numbers I was seeing on the calculator weren't putting the engine under un-due stress.

I spoke with Bean at BigBoyz and he was recommending keeping CCP at 175-180 for most street applications, but seems I've been reading closer to 200 is ideal?

[Durwood]

If the heads are off, then by all means use the .030" head gasket.

70% leakdown could very well have been a result of measuring with the piston at TDC overlap instead of TDC compression. If you have the heads off, prop them upright/level so you can fill the chambers with fluid- if it doesn't immediately leak into the ports, then the 70% leak down isn't accurate.


I like the additional benefits of running a tighter quench with the .030" head gaskets.

Agreed. Leak down testing can be tricky with the push rods installed. I put them on TDC and use my crank locking tool in the CPS hole. Works great.

[Shadowbennie]

70% leakdown could very well have been a result of measuring with the piston at TDC overlap instead of TDC compression. If you have the heads off, prop them upright/level so you can fill the chambers with fluid- if it doesn't immediately leak into the ports, then the 70% leak down isn't accurate.


I like the additional benefits of running a tighter quench with the .030" head gaskets.

It couldn't have been an issue of where it was at TDC, the pushrods were cut and out, so all valves were completely closed (supposedly). When removing the pushrods, I made sure that the rear was on overlap, i.e. able to easily spin the front two with my fingers, and cut the front two, then followed the same procedure for the rears, putting the front cam on overlap.

When we tested the front, visually confirmed the piston was at TD and locked up the comp with a block of wood to keep the air from forcing the piston down - that's why the amount of loss is such a strange reading given no pushrods to potentially have the TDC at overlap vs. compression and knowing the bike ran fine last fall. If I were getting 70% loss at all late last year during riding season, I don't think the bike would've run at all, agreed?

[sfmichael]

agree - might have dislodged a piece of carbon or something weird

don't overthink it - I always recommend freshening up the heads as I doubt the valve job from the factory is optimum even when new

not bitching, just the results of mass production

several very talented machinists on the forum that can help you if needed

best to use a guy that well-versed in HD but any talented machinist can do what you need

[Shadowbennie]

agree - might have dislodged a piece of carbon or something weird

don't overthink it - I always recommend freshening up the heads as I doubt the valve job from the factory is optimum even when new

not bitching, just the results of mass production

several very talented machinists on the forum that can help you if needed

best to use a guy that well-versed in HD but any talented machinist can do what you need

Right on, I'm calling it an anomaly at this point, but it's probably better that I took the heads off to confirm - bad things could've happened if there were actually something like a bent valve, etc. and I just slapped it together and fired it up.

I'll just re-fresh parts as necessary since they're off, run a .030 gasket, & hopefully button this up in the next couple of weeks. I freakin love this forum, so much knowledge to save the bacon of us novice's - I'm learning valuable stuff tho!

I can't wait to fire it up for the first time after all of this - I expect that my garbage will starting taking itself out, my girl will suddenly resemble Jessica Biel, and my dog will crap only in the neighbor's yard - or am I expecting too much from just a cam & head gasket swap? 

[PoorUB]

My buddy and I have identical 2016 Limiteds. I put in the CR570-2 cams and decatted my head pipe. A month later we were out west in the mountains. We rode up a grade at 60 mph in 6th gear. His completely stock bike would barely pull the grade, pretty sure he was slowly losing speed. I could rollup on him, drop the throttle to get some space between us and roll up on him again.

If you don't feel the difference you need to get your butt dyno tuned up!

[sfmichael]

agree - might have dislodged a piece of carbon or something weird

don't overthink it - I always recommend freshening up the heads as I doubt the valve job from the factory is optimum even when new

not bitching, just the results of mass production

several very talented machinists on the forum that can help you if needed

best to use a guy that well-versed in HD but any talented machinist can do what you need

Right on, I'm calling it an anomaly at this point, but it's probably better that I took the heads off to confirm - bad things could've happened if there were actually something like a bent valve, etc. and I just slapped it together and fired it up.

I'll just re-fresh parts as necessary since they're off, run a .030 gasket, & hopefully button this up in the next couple of weeks. I freakin love this forum, so much knowledge to save the bacon of us novice's - I'm learning valuable stuff tho!

I can't wait to fire it up for the first time after all of this - I expect that my garbage will starting taking itself out, my girl will suddenly resemble Jessica Biel, and my dog will crap only in the neighbor's yard - or am I expecting too much from just a cam & head gasket swap?

no you're not - with the right dyno tune it'll do all that and more 

you're in for some fun 

[1workinman]

At 48K, you had better do some diagnostic work before you start spending money.  Sometimes they need so much work that a crate motor become the economical fix.  Or the wallet dictates an regular budget overhaul to buy some miles and time while you build up the war chest.  At the very least, you should replace the tappets at that mileage.  The tensioners wouldn't worry me, as they tend to wear down to the rollers and then stay like that indefinitely.

Compression and leakage tests.
Bore scope it and read the piston domes.
I'd bet money on the rear jug being more than 007 out of round.  And you need to check the piston skirts at tear down.  More than a few of them show embedded metal particles, which is usually a crank pin or rod surface brinelling.   

Then you need to check the run out on the crank, both ends.  As well as see what the rod fit is like.

Adding power to a 50K twin cam can bring to light a lot of issues that really were very noticeable when it was stock.

After that you pretty much have it covered as far as the cams and valve system.  You should check the rocker shaft fit in the supports.  They tend to wear loose over time.

There is a lot of truth here , I bought a used and checked out perfect 12 Street Glide with around those miles and with in less that 1 miles on a trip to the dragon the pos went to knocking rod out . From a Harley Dealer ok .   I think the guy that traded it in was smart and the guy who bought it got a education , I had several on Harleys trust me here . Me I would just drive it , the lifters and cam bearing a good idea . I not a fan of crate motors either , or the one I bought . My built engine that I have now yea it does what I want . First off if you pull the engine down to install say a 107 or a 110 kit most shops will rotate the crank assembly several time , If the rods stick up then time to go into the bottom end . Probably a SS crank shaft or who ever . Me I rather have a engine built the way I want it or just drive what you have and replace the lifters and cam bearings maybe a good used 255 and tune it . Power duals or what ever call it good . If the motor give it up me I have one built

[Shadowbennie]

  It's alive! Fired it up late Friday night, what a relief. The lifters were a bit noisy even after a couple of minutes of run time, but it was pretty cold at that time so maybe the oil needed more time to warm up & find its way through. But I need to look into that to make sure the pushrods are adjusted properly, but it could be something I overlooked, was thinking it could be the S&S timesaver Ross are tapping the pushrod covers, or possibly that these woods lifters just need a little more time to pump up, going to run it for more time on a warmer day.

Update: slapped the rest of the body parts on this morning, couldn't wait till it was warmer - started it and it quieted down nicely. I suspected it, but I found that a good deal of the noise I was hearing was coming through the throttle body since I don't have my air cleaner on yet. I think I'm good to go!

Next step, get it tuned!

Thanks to everyone who offered technical advice and especially to those who talked me off the ledge during this cam, bearings, lifter swap process!

[Don D]

 
Change the cam, inner bearings, lifters, check the runout and oil pump and move on with a good pipe and tune. After that just service.

[Shadowbennie]

My buddy and I have identical 2016 Limiteds. I put in the CR570-2 cams and decatted my head pipe. A month later we were out west in the mountains. We rode up a grade at 60 mph in 6th gear. His completely stock bike would barely pull the grade, pretty sure he was slowly losing speed. I could rollup on him, drop the throttle to get some space between us and roll up on him again.

If you don't feel the difference you need to get your butt dyno tuned up!

Took a quick spin around town & a little highway to twist it a bit, hot damn! There is a noticeable improvement & I was even running my power vision in tuning mode. I swear it's louder & sounds more ballsy too.

Gonna try to run a few more tuning runs and then run it like that until I can get it to a tuner, hopefully within the month. I'm really intrigued with how this thing is gonna run with a spot on tune!

[sfmichael]

My buddy and I have identical 2016 Limiteds. I put in the CR570-2 cams and decatted my head pipe. A month later we were out west in the mountains. We rode up a grade at 60 mph in 6th gear. His completely stock bike would barely pull the grade, pretty sure he was slowly losing speed. I could rollup on him, drop the throttle to get some space between us and roll up on him again.

If you don't feel the difference you need to get your butt dyno tuned up!

Took a quick spin around town & a little highway to twist it a bit, hot damn! There is a noticeable improvement & I was even running my power vision in tuning mode. I swear it's louder & sounds more ballsy too.

Gonna try to run a few more tuning runs and then run it like that until I can get it to a tuner, hopefully within the month. I'm really intrigued with how this thing is gonna run with a spot on tune!

   

[Shadowbennie]

Update - I've been running my new setup for a little over a month now, and it continues to impress. Had a bit of an oil weep at one of the front pushrod o-rings at the head, so switched them out, all good - then found a small oil weep at the rear cylinder at the lower rocker box gasket - dove in to perform some minor surgery on that and got it sorted out - all dry now and running great.

Still need to get it to a tuner, but work & weekend schedules have prevented me from doing so - well, along with our shitty MN weather this year.

BUT, I think I'm getting some clutch slip when I really romp on it. What's the general rule of thumb of what the the stock clutch spring can handle?

I can't imagine I'm over, or even pushing, ~115 ft/lbs of torque.....but I'm pretty sure she's slipping.

Thoughts on getting an AIM VPC?

[PoorUB]

What was your final choice of parts? Cams, head gasket, exhaust, AC?

[Shadowbennie]

What was your final choice of parts? Cams, head gasket, exhaust, AC?

I went with the CR-570-II, stayed with the exhaust I already had, which is Dragos Dragula 2 w/2.5” baffle. Thru the process (long story which involves my boneheaded decision to try to clean up carbon with the wrong tool) I ended up having the heads decked .009” to fix my mess-up during cleaning & to true them up, and put in new stock valves, new stock springs & seals. Tried to keep the costs low, so no port or valve job at this time. Also new woods alpha lifters, Koyo ICB’s & S&S time saver adjustable pushrods.

At the recommendation of the guy who did the headwork, and to try keep the CCP around 190-ish (assumed calc based on stock CC, minus the .009”), I did a .040” HG. Probably could’ve gone with a .030 HG, but then I would’ve been pushing 195+ CCP (calculated) & I wasn’t sure I wanted to push the CCP that high at this point. Maybe later on during the next upgrade, if I end up taking the next step.

AC is a Fuel Moto billet AC I was running before the cam upgrade.

And Poor, you were right about these CR’s , the power available in 6th with a roll on is dramatic. There’s passing power in that gear now, whereas with stock, it would just groan and sloooowly climb up in speed. These cams really shine if you kick it down a gear, she’ll throw ya back in the seat!

[Chippitt68]

Update - I've been running my new setup for a little over a month now, and it continues to impress. Had a bit of an oil weep at one of the front pushrod o-rings at the head, so switched them out, all good - then found a small oil weep at the rear cylinder at the lower rocker box gasket - dove in to perform some minor surgery on that and got it sorted out - all dry now and running great.

Still need to get it to a tuner, but work & weekend schedules have prevented me from doing so - well, along with our shitty MN weather this year.

BUT, I think I'm getting some clutch slip when I really romp on it. What's the general rule of thumb of what the the stock clutch spring can handle?

I can't imagine I'm over, or even pushing, ~115 ft/lbs of torque.....but I'm pretty sure she's slipping.

Thoughts on getting an AIM VPC?

I'm at 115tq and stock clutch with se spring doesn't slip

[Hossamania]

As far as the clutch goes, you might want to pull it apart and inspect the steels and fibers, they may need replacement if original, those plus the SE spring will probably be fine, you probably won't need the vpc.

[Shadowbennie]

As far as the clutch goes, you might want to pull it apart and inspect the steels and fibers, they may need replacement if original, those plus the SE spring will probably be fine, you probably won't need the vpc.

Hey Hoss (and all) - yeah, I'm guessing the steels and/or fibers might be due for replacement. I took my ride to BVHOG last friday to have it tuned, he noted he thought the clutch was slipping just a little in the final roll-ons, but the engine stayed together (whew!) and is running like a top! I will admit that I did get a little anxious before Bob did the final set of redline roll-ons, there's no better test to the job you've done, and I was gonna find out!

Bob did an excellent job, and it was fun to watch him work. I'm going to try to milk the clutch until this winter, i'll tear it down and replace with new fibers & steels & upgrade the spring at that point.

I did switch out the Schaeffer's syn primary back to formula + before the tune, think I'm gonna stick with formula + from here on out, especially if I decide to go with carbonite fiber plates as I believe you're not supposed to run syn primary with those.

Ended up at 118-120 torque/~97 HP - with a power band as flat as a table top! A nice solid outing and I'm real happy! The throttle response is smooth as butter all the way through the RPM range now, no dips, hesitation, or punchyness unless I want it!

[klammer76]

As far as the clutch goes, you might want to pull it apart and inspect the steels and fibers, they may need replacement if original, those plus the SE spring will probably be fine, you probably won't need the vpc.

Hey Hoss (and all) - yeah, I'm guessing the steels and/or fibers might be due for replacement. I took my ride to BVHOG last friday to have it tuned, he noted he thought the clutch was slipping just a little in the final roll-ons, but the engine stayed together (whew!) and is running like a top! I will admit that I did get a little anxious before Bob did the final set of redline roll-ons, there's no better test to the job you've done, and I was gonna find out!

Bob did an excellent job, and it was fun to watch him work. I'm going to try to milk the clutch until this winter, i'll tear it down and replace with new fibers & steels & upgrade the spring at that point.

I did switch out the Schaeffer's syn primary back to formula + before the tune, think I'm gonna stick with formula + from here on out, especially if I decide to go with carbonite fiber plates as I believe you're not supposed to run syn primary with those.

Ended up at 118-120 torque/~97 HP - with a power band as flat as a table top! A nice solid outing and I'm real happy! The throttle response is smooth as butter all the way through the RPM range now, no dips, hesitation, or punchyness unless I want it!

Nice job!

[1workinman]

At 48K, you had better do some diagnostic work before you start spending money.  Sometimes they need so much work that a crate motor become the economical fix.  Or the wallet dictates an regular budget overhaul to buy some miles and time while you build up the war chest.  At the very least, you should replace the tappets at that mileage.  The tensioners wouldn't worry me, as they tend to wear down to the rollers and then stay like that indefinitely.

Compression and leakage tests.
Bore scope it and read the piston domes.
I'd bet money on the rear jug being more than 007 out of round.  And you need to check the piston skirts at tear down.  More than a few of them show embedded metal particles, which is usually a crank pin or rod surface brinelling.   

Then you need to check the run out on the crank, both ends.  As well as see what the rod fit is like.

Adding power to a 50K twin cam can bring to light a lot of issues that really were very noticeable when it was stock.

After that you pretty much have it covered as far as the cams and valve system.  You should check the rocker shaft fit in the supports.  They tend to wear loose over time.

Words of wisdom here . I bought a used 12 Street Glide , that had some where in that range checked out and ready to go at the Harley dealer . Crank went out in less than a 1k miles . I like the guys at the dealer it was not personal but stock Harley motors I have little faith in them . If I had a stock Harley that lasted that long I would install a set of new SS or who ever not Harley lifters ,  cam bearings and buy a good used cam . 255 or what ever and tune it . I the last person to give advice on saving a dollar or two on Harleys .