March 28, 2024, 04:40:22 AM

News:

For advertising inquiries or help with registration or other issues, you may contact us by email at help@harleytechtalk.com


Lack of power

Started by Gsbuick65, January 20, 2019, 08:39:49 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Gsbuick65

January 20, 2019, 08:39:49 PM Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 12:11:08 AM by FSG
I've got a 2011 rg 103, sometimes when I get on it it has a big bog to it. Starting doing it at 45,000 miles, first I changed the fuel filter, then fuel pump. Took it to a Harley mech. He couldn't find anything so he suggested the power vision, loaded stock tune still does it, 60,000 miles I took it to another shop, he suggested chain tensioners, so new cams and tensioners, still did it. So I put a new ignition switch as it didn't seem to work right. Changed crank position sensor, map sensor and wires. Anybody got any ideas? When he's right it runs bad ass
2011 103 s&s 570s, powervision
Rinehart true duals, southaven Ms.

kd

You might want to re read your opening post.  It has a bid "what" to it.  :scratch:  It's still doing "it" (what).     :idunno:

Maybe include some other info such as RPM, sound, etc..


BTW,  welcome to the site.  :wink:

KD

Hillside Motorcycle

Not clear as to what you are saying.
Otto Knowbetter sez, "Even a fish wouldn't get caught if he kept his mouth shut"

Hossamania

I think "big" should read "bog".
Sounds like possible sumping.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Hillside Motorcycle

If sumping is creating the bog, then it'll also feel like the brakes are being applied upon releasing the throttle.
Otto Knowbetter sez, "Even a fish wouldn't get caught if he kept his mouth shut"

Gsbuick65

Quote from: Hossamania on January 21, 2019, 04:19:24 AM
I think "big" should read "bog".
Sounds like possible sumping.

yep thats bog (damn auto correct), it doesnt do it all the time, it didnt do it when he dynoed it, its more noticeable when in 6th gear. not throwing any codes
2011 103 s&s 570s, powervision
Rinehart true duals, southaven Ms.

Gsbuick65

Quote from: kd on January 20, 2019, 08:50:28 PM
You might want to re read your opening post.  It has a bid "what" to it.  :scratch:  It's still doing "it" (what).     :idunno:

Maybe include some other info such as RPM, sound, etc..


BTW,  welcome to the site.  :wink:
thanks, no certain rpm, but to me it sounds like a cylinder is off? flat? 
2011 103 s&s 570s, powervision
Rinehart true duals, southaven Ms.

fbn ent

RPM would definitely be helpful here. Are you twisting when you should be downshifting?
'02 FLTRI - 103" / '84 FLH - 88"<br />Hinton, Alberta

Gsbuick65

it does it at all rpms, for instance 80mph 3000 rpms, i open throttle wide open, sometimes it takes off like a bat outta hell, sometimes it just boooogs, it accelerates but it doesn't "take" off. just had s&s 570s put in. mech thought it was the tensioners throwing it off time   
2011 103 s&s 570s, powervision
Rinehart true duals, southaven Ms.

Shoreglide

In your first post, you stated new cams and tensioners. I seriously dounbt tensioners are the issue, especially since it sometimes runs well.
Need to confirm it's not sumping before throwing more parts at it.
Also, that stock tune is far from ideal.

Scotty

Quote from: Gsbuick65 on January 21, 2019, 12:04:13 PM
it does it at all rpms, for instance 80mph 3000 rpms, i open throttle wide open, sometimes it takes off like a bat outta hell, sometimes it just boooogs, it accelerates but it doesn't "take" off. just had s&s 570s put in. mech thought it was the tensioners throwing it off time

When it does this have you noticed the motor getting hotter as well? Seen something similar but his was caught on the dyno and he installed a S&S cam plate & oil pump and no longer does it.

Gsbuick65

Quote from: Scotty on January 21, 2019, 01:01:28 PM
Quote from: Gsbuick65 on January 21, 2019, 12:04:13 PM
it does it at all rpms, for instance 80mph 3000 rpms, i open throttle wide open, sometimes it takes off like a bat outta hell, sometimes it just boooogs, it accelerates but it doesn't "take" off. just had s&s 570s put in. mech thought it was the tensioners throwing it off time

When it does this have you noticed the motor getting hotter as well? Seen something similar but his was caught on the dyno and he installed a S&S cam plate & oil pump and no longer does it.
yea it wasnt tensioners, havent noticed it getting hotter, its done it with the bike cold, at first i thought it was bad gas, one time i put in some chevron fi cleaner. it ran fine til the next tank of gas. he put it on the dyno after the cams, put out 95 hp.
im gonna put a new coil on it, see if thats it
2011 103 s&s 570s, powervision
Rinehart true duals, southaven Ms.

Jamie Long

I've seen an assortment of bikes with these types of issues; connector issues at the throttle body, twist grip related issues, broken MAP sensor wires, faulty VSS, are just a few potential areas. Have you checked the stored DTC's?

Scotty

Quote from: Gsbuick65 on January 21, 2019, 12:04:13 PM
yea it wasnt tensioners, havent noticed it getting hotter, its done it with the bike cold, at first i thought it was bad gas, one time i put in some chevron fi cleaner. it ran fine til the next tank of gas. he put it on the dyno after the cams, put out 95 hp.
im gonna put a new coil on it, see if thats it

If it was sumping then the motor has to run extra hard to get the flywheels through the oil and generally the motor will get hot and quickly as it was doing on the dyno.
Stock oil pump & o-ring was changed and replaced more than a few times with no result that lasted more than a few km's
S&S oil pump and cam plate were a final decision or I think he was going to sell the bike :)
Maybe you need to look at the electrical side if you are sure it is not sumping.

PoorUB

Quote from: Gsbuick65 on January 21, 2019, 12:04:13 PM
it does it at all rpms, for instance 80mph 3000 rpms, i open throttle wide open, sometimes it takes off like a bat outta hell, sometimes it just boooogs, it accelerates but it doesn't "take" off. just had s&s 570s put in. mech thought it was the tensioners throwing it off time

:wtf: :hyst:

Time to find a different mechanic!

Has anyone pulled the crankcase pulg and checked to see how much oil comes out?
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Gsbuick65

Quote from: PoorUB on January 21, 2019, 05:51:50 PM
Quote from: Gsbuick65 on January 21, 2019, 12:04:13 PM
it does it at all rpms, for instance 80mph 3000 rpms, i open throttle wide open, sometimes it takes off like a bat outta hell, sometimes it just boooogs, it accelerates but it doesn't "take" off. just had s&s 570s put in. mech thought it was the tensioners throwing it off time

:wtf: :hyst:

Time to find a different mechanic!

Has anyone pulled the crankcase pulg and checked to see how much oil comes out?
I'll do that this weekend
2011 103 s&s 570s, powervision
Rinehart true duals, southaven Ms.

Gsbuick65

Quote from: Jamie Long on January 21, 2019, 02:34:36 PM
I've seen an assortment of bikes with these types of issues; connector issues at the throttle body, twist grip related issues, broken MAP sensor wires, faulty VSS, are just a few potential areas. Have you checked the stored DTC's?
I replaced the map and crank sensor, no stored codes other than brake abs code.
2011 103 s&s 570s, powervision
Rinehart true duals, southaven Ms.

1FSTRK

I would go to a good dyno shop and schedule a hour of diagnostic time, the tech should be able to reproduce the problem on the dyno and tell you the cause.

If you don't have, or don't want to go to a pro I would first perform a real sumping test just to rule it out but your description sounds more electrical/fuel related so next I would run data logs on the bike when riding until the problem appears and then go through the logs to see what was happening.

The dyno tech has the advantage of being able to control and monitor load, temperature, and speed while walking around the bike observing for things like vibrating parts as well as wiggle testing harnesses and connectors. The parts changing process can go o for ever and not find a bad wire in a harness, good diagnostics is really the best way to attack these problems.
Good luck and keep us posted.

"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Gsbuick65

Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 22, 2019, 04:49:09 AM
I would go to a good dyno shop and schedule a hour of diagnostic time, the tech should be able to reproduce the problem on the dyno and tell you the cause.

If you don't have, or don't want to go to a pro I would first perform a real sumping test just to rule it out but your description sounds more electrical/fuel related so next I would run data logs on the bike when riding until the problem appears and then go through the logs to see what was happening.

The dyno tech has the advantage of being able to control and monitor load, temperature, and speed while walking around the bike observing for things like vibrating parts as well as wiggle testing harnesses and connectors. The parts changing process can go o for ever and not find a bad wire in a harness, good diagnostics is really the best way to attack these problems.
Good luck and keep us posted.
yea the guy that put the cams in dynoed it, it was running fine at the time so he thought it was fixed, he told me to bring it back.  guess ill do that after check for sumping. i just hate to pay someone more money to throw parts at it when i can do that, lol
2011 103 s&s 570s, powervision
Rinehart true duals, southaven Ms.

1FSTRK

Quote from: Gsbuick65 on January 22, 2019, 07:26:40 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 22, 2019, 04:49:09 AM
I would go to a good dyno shop and schedule a hour of diagnostic time, the tech should be able to reproduce the problem on the dyno and tell you the cause.

If you don't have, or don't want to go to a pro I would first perform a real sumping test just to rule it out but your description sounds more electrical/fuel related so next I would run data logs on the bike when riding until the problem appears and then go through the logs to see what was happening.

The dyno tech has the advantage of being able to control and monitor load, temperature, and speed while walking around the bike observing for things like vibrating parts as well as wiggle testing harnesses and connectors. The parts changing process can go o for ever and not find a bad wire in a harness, good diagnostics is really the best way to attack these problems.
Good luck and keep us posted.
yea the guy that put the cams in dynoed it, it was running fine at the time so he thought it was fixed, he told me to bring it back.  guess ill do that after check for sumping. i just hate to pay someone more money to throw parts at it when i can do that, lol

Two different things, dyno tuning and dyno diagnostics. I would not advise to pay him to throw parts at it, have him diagnose it. Discuss it up front, if he does not know the difference you need to find a better dyno shop.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

motorplex88

Not sure what type of exhaust you have but I would also check for periodic blockage. If you end up back on the dyno you should be able to replicate and check flow.

Gsbuick65

Quote from: motorplex88 on January 22, 2019, 11:01:00 AM
Not sure what type of exhaust you have but I would also check for periodic blockage. If you end up back on the dyno you should be able to replicate and check flow.
rinehart true duals
2011 103 s&s 570s, powervision
Rinehart true duals, southaven Ms.

motorplex88

Ok. I'm probably in left field then. I have seen some that had the internals of the exhaust come apart and block flow to the point the engine wouldn't run past an idle.

Gsbuick65

Quote from: Gsbuick65 on January 21, 2019, 08:23:32 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on January 21, 2019, 05:51:50 PM
Quote from: Gsbuick65 on January 21, 2019, 12:04:13 PM
it does it at all rpms, for instance 80mph 3000 rpms, i open throttle wide open, sometimes it takes off like a bat outta hell, sometimes it just boooogs, it accelerates but it doesn't "take" off. just had s&s 570s put in. mech thought it was the tensioners throwing it off time

:wtf: :hyst:

Time to find a different mechanic!

Has anyone pulled the crankcase pulg and checked to see how much oil comes out?

ok i pulled the plug, got about 8.5 ozs out of it with all the air dumped out of air shocks
2011 103 s&s 570s, powervision
Rinehart true duals, southaven Ms.

fleetmechanic

Quote from: Jamie Long on January 21, 2019, 02:34:36 PM
I've seen an assortment of bikes with these types of issues; connector issues at the throttle body, twist grip related issues, broken MAP sensor wires, faulty VSS, are just a few potential areas. Have you checked the stored DTC's?
We have 3-2011 police bikes that are all stock but had some running issues and in all cases they were related to the first 3 wiring items mentioned here.

Gsbuick65

Quote from: fleetmechanic on January 22, 2019, 08:32:48 PM
Quote from: Jamie Long on January 21, 2019, 02:34:36 PM
I've seen an assortment of bikes with these types of issues; connector issues at the throttle body, twist grip related issues, broken MAP sensor wires, faulty VSS, are just a few potential areas. Have you checked the stored DTC's?
We have 3-2011 police bikes that are all stock but had some running issues and in all cases they were related to the first 3 wiring items mentioned here.
how did you go about finding the problem?
2011 103 s&s 570s, powervision
Rinehart true duals, southaven Ms.

fleetmechanic

January 30, 2019, 10:04:57 AM #26 Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 04:32:27 PM by fleetmechanic
Most of our problems were eventually found by continuity testing in the wiring.  Failing or broken wires at the MAP sensor plug on two of them and pinched throttle wires next to the frame neck on another one.  On the first one the dealer replaced the TCA connector pins thinking maybe fretting corrosion and then I replaced the throttle body before finding the failing wire problem at the MAP plug.

sfmichael

can't beat experience

fuelmoto / fleetmech   :up: :up:
Colorado Springs, CO.

Otter656

I had a cylinder head temp sensor go bad on my old Softail...I seem to remember it had intermittent bogging/loss of acceleration, but might have been more severe than what you are experiencing (can't trust me memory too much these days). I don't know if it threw any codes cuz I had an aftermarket speedo that didn't give that info. Anywho, its a relatively cheap and easy part to swap out. Hope you figure it out...

86fxwg

 No codes! Anyone Check fuel pressure?



86
86fxwg 06flhx 10flhx

Sycho01

My thoughts exactly. Faulty pump, fuel pressure regulator, plastic fuel pressure hose(pinhole) , faulty vacuum operated fuel peacock, bad electrical connection.
Does the engine bog with a full fuel tank or a partial fuel tank?
I have seen many new, dealer and non dealer parts defective right out of the box. Don't discount a new or rebuilt part being bad. I have learned that lesson the hard way more than once.
Good luck, hope you find the problem quickly.

fleetmechanic

Quote from: Sycho01 on February 03, 2019, 06:23:37 AM
My thoughts exactly. Faulty pump, fuel pressure regulator, plastic fuel pressure hose(pinhole) , faulty vacuum operated fuel peacock, bad electrical connection.
Does the engine bog with a full fuel tank or a partial fuel tank?
I have seen many new, dealer and non dealer parts defective right out of the box. Don't discount a new or rebuilt part being bad. I have learned that lesson the hard way more than once.
Good luck, hope you find the problem quickly.

On one of our first ones with the problem I saw the fuel regulator spraying fuel inside the tank which turned out to be normal, checked fuel pressure, hoses and went all around the world before finding a broken end making intermittent contact on the ground wire at the MAP sensor plug.  The electrical stuff can send you in many wrong directions.

Sycho01

Has the throttle body been cleaned? Dirty or sluggish Iac?

Gsbuick65

Quote from: 86fxwg on February 01, 2019, 01:03:02 PM
No codes! Anyone Check fuel pressure?



86
no codes other than abs
2011 103 s&s 570s, powervision
Rinehart true duals, southaven Ms.

Gsbuick65

Quote from: fleetmechanic on February 03, 2019, 09:42:46 AM
Quote from: Sycho01 on February 03, 2019, 06:23:37 AM
My thoughts exactly. Faulty pump, fuel pressure regulator, plastic fuel pressure hose(pinhole) , faulty vacuum operated fuel peacock, bad electrical connection.
Does the engine bog with a full fuel tank or a partial fuel tank?
I have seen many new, dealer and non dealer parts defective right out of the box. Don't discount a new or rebuilt part being bad. I have learned that lesson the hard way more than once.
Good luck, hope you find the problem quickly.

On one of our first ones with the problem I saw the fuel regulator spraying fuel inside the tank which turned out to be normal, checked fuel pressure, hoses and went all around the world before finding a broken end making intermittent contact on the ground wire at the MAP sensor plug.  The electrical stuff can send you in many wrong directions.
i replaced the pump thinking the same thing, put a new pump in still did it so i cut the fuel line and put a tee and ran an external gauge, pressure stays at 58-60 whole time.
2011 103 s&s 570s, powervision
Rinehart true duals, southaven Ms.

Gsbuick65

i just replaced the coil with comp fast coil and the temp sensor. it was warm enough Saturday to ride and its still doing it. to me it sounds like a cylinder is flat. the guy that put the cams in told me to bring it back, dont know if i should do that or take it to southern thunder Harley since they need to do the brake recall, i just hate to let so many different people work on it.
2011 103 s&s 570s, powervision
Rinehart true duals, southaven Ms.

Sycho01

I would still clean the throttle body simply to rule it out. It is cheap to do and does not take long to do. A dirty throttle body won't throw a code.
After that I would wiggle test every wire and plug on the bike .
If the bike has to go in for service at Harley at least they have the right gear to test for the problem. Discuss how they charge for diagnostics beforehand so you don't get hosed.
Good luck.

Gsbuick65

Quote from: Sycho01 on February 07, 2019, 01:38:11 PM
I would still clean the throttle body simply to rule it out. It is cheap to do and does not take long to do. A dirty throttle body won't throw a code.
After that I would wiggle test every wire and plug on the bike .
If the bike has to go in for service at Harley at least they have the right gear to test for the problem. Discuss how they charge for diagnostics beforehand so you don't get hosed.
Good luck.
ok I did that last saturday, went down 55s got bike to 80 nailed it-took 10 seconds to get to 100. so i took it back to the shop told him, hes gonna look at it, ill let yall know
2011 103 s&s 570s, powervision
Rinehart true duals, southaven Ms.

MikeL

ECU failing? Any way to swap it out with a known good one for a road test. It looks like you have done everything possible. Ask the Harley dealer they may do that.


                                                                                                      MIKE



Gsbuick65

Quote from: MIKEL on February 11, 2019, 01:46:19 PM
ECU failing? Any way to swap it out with a known good one for a road test. It looks like you have done everything possible. Ask the Harley dealer they may do that.


                                                                                                      MIKE
ill ask, he said something about trying another throttle body
2011 103 s&s 570s, powervision
Rinehart true duals, southaven Ms.

MikeL

 :dgust:???????Results :dgust:

                                                                                                     MIKE

Gsbuick65

Quote from: MIKEL on March 04, 2019, 07:19:19 AM
:dgust:???????Results :dgust:

                                                                                                     MIKE
nope, took it back to the shop, he couldn't find anything , Saturday they had a dyno shootout at southernthunder Harley, i entered since it was only $20 just to see what their dyno showed, put out 86 hp 95 tq, told him what it was doing and all ive done to it, he said start with a fuel pressure regulator so i got that with the money I won on the shootout  :smile: and another fuel filter
2011 103 s&s 570s, powervision
Rinehart true duals, southaven Ms.

Gsbuick65

Quote from: MIKEL on February 11, 2019, 01:46:19 PM
ECU failing? Any way to swap it out with a known good one for a road test. It looks like you have done everything possible. Ask the Harley dealer they may do that.

he was gonna try that then he realized he would have to buy another license for the tune since its licensed to my ecm 

                                                                                                     
2011 103 s&s 570s, powervision
Rinehart true duals, southaven Ms.

nutsandbolts5212

So, any word???

Ride safe!

Gsbuick65

Quote from: nutsandbolts5212 on March 14, 2019, 02:23:42 PM
So, any word???

Ride safe!

nope, i took it back to the guy that put the cams in, ran fine for him.  so far i havent been about to ride it enough to cause the problem.  I put it in the dyno shootout at southern thunder couple weeks ago, it put out 86 hp for him, i told him what is was doing and all i have replaced, he suggested fuel pressure regulator (letting it build pressure but not flow) since i replaced the pump and filter. but hey i won the dyno shootout so that paid for sum more parts, lol.
2011 103 s&s 570s, powervision
Rinehart true duals, southaven Ms.

Gsbuick65

ok I replaced the fuel pressure regulator and filter, still does it.  im thinking its some sorta vacuum leak but i cant find one.  cause when its not running right my power vision shows my fuel mileage is about 5 mpg lower, Im guessing it gets its signal from vacuum?
2011 103 s&s 570s, powervision
Rinehart true duals, southaven Ms.

PoorUB

Did you ever ohm out the wiring like Fleetmechanic mentioned?
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Gsbuick65

Quote from: PoorUB on May 09, 2019, 10:30:12 AM
Did you ever ohm out the wiring like Fleetmechanic mentioned?
nope, wouldnt that throw a code?
2011 103 s&s 570s, powervision
Rinehart true duals, southaven Ms.

JMHD

Quote from: Gsbuick65 on May 09, 2019, 11:50:55 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on May 09, 2019, 10:30:12 AM
Did you ever ohm out the wiring like Fleetmechanic mentioned?
nope, wouldnt that throw a code?
I have had a few of the map sensor wires broken inside the insulation as Jamie and fleet mechanic have mentioned that did not throw codes.

Gsbuick65

ok i checked the wiring from the map to the ecm, wiggled them around no lose of connection. so i checked the compression, 180 on from 135 on rear, put oil in rear 140, them i forgot to pull the exhaust fuse out, still 135. so is the compression release sticking?
2011 103 s&s 570s, powervision
Rinehart true duals, southaven Ms.

PoorUB

Quote from: Gsbuick65 on May 23, 2019, 03:54:03 PM
ok i checked the wiring from the map to the ecm, wiggled them around no lose of connection. so i checked the compression, 180 on from 135 on rear, put oil in rear 140, them i forgot to pull the exhaust fuse out, still 135. so is the compression release sticking?

Hard to say.
You could try get a spark plug adapter and hook up an air hose and listen for where the air comes out.  Choices are intake, exhaust, crankcase or compression release. Some will come out the crankcase, but very little. No air should come out the other three places. You will need to get the cylinder on TDC compression and hold it there, tough to do, you might need a helper. Put in in 6th gear and hold the brake.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

dsvracer

if you only have 135 psi in the rear hole i would address this issue first and then move on.  i would think a motor with that low of compression would make the motor run a little lazy. dsv

rigidthumper

Unplug the ACRs  from the harness and re-test the CCP with the throttle open.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

hogmandon

I had a similar problem when I started with EFI on a build I did. Found accelerator pump option on the PC V and turned it on. Problem fixed. If your tuner has an accelerator pump option. Make sure it is  turned on. Gives a little extra squirt when you snap it open like the old carburetor days.

Gsbuick65

Quote from: rigidthumper on May 24, 2019, 07:50:34 AM
Unplug the ACRs  from the harness and re-test the CCP with the throttle open.
ok, did that but didnt block throttle open and had 180psi, it seams to be cranking ok, im gonna put in a new solenoid since its only $40
2011 103 s&s 570s, powervision
Rinehart true duals, southaven Ms.

chaos901

Seeing where you live, I don't know about the Southern Thunder dyno guys, but Bumpus Memphis is good.  Just saying.  Wish I remembered the techs name, but getting old.
"There are only two truly infinite things, the universe and stupidity." AE

rigidthumper

Quote from: Gsbuick65 on May 29, 2019, 09:40:34 AM
Quote from: rigidthumper on May 24, 2019, 07:50:34 AM
Unplug the ACRs  from the harness and re-test the CCP with the throttle open.
ok, did that but didnt block throttle open and had 180psi, it seams to be cranking ok, im gonna put in a new solenoid since its only $40

180# with stock head 103 w/flat tops and S&S 570s is right on the $.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?