My 2000 Softail Deuce wont start

[Dagrein]

Hi
I recently bought a 2000 Softail Deuce with some minor damages. The damages is of no problems. The problem is that it won't start..

- It cranks easily without any mechanical noise from the engine.
- I took that carb apart and cleaned it well and the accelerator pump is pumping gas when I twist the throttle.
- There is spark on both sparkplugs. I even replaced the coil with one I had from another bike just to be sure.
- I have replaced the Crank position sensor with a new original one from Harley.
- All wires seem to be ok when I test them with a ohmmeter.
- When I turn on the ignition, the engine lamp turns of after 4 seconds just as it should. And It doesn't come on again when I crank the engine.

I attached a wire across terminal 1 and terminal 2 on data link connector (91A) With this done I was able to read fault code 42 and 44. These two codes were the only ones.

Code 44 is bank angle sensor. (On 1999-2000 models this sensor is separate from the TSM module and not integrated in the TSM module like it is from bikes newer than 2001)
I removed the sensor from the bike and when I tilted the sensor I could clearly hear a ball moving inside it. When I used a ohmmeter between terminal 1 and 3 (134A) I got no readings no matter which way I held the sensor, so I suspect this sensor is broken, as the fault code indicate. To eliminate this sensor I bypassed it with a wire between terminal 1 and 3 on the bank angle connector (134B). I checked that I got 12V on terminal 10 on the black connector(10B) on the ignition module. This didn't help at all. Still no sign of willingness to start.

Code 42 is the cam position sensor. I get 5 Volts on terminal 1 on connector 14B. Terminal 2 is ground. On terminal 3 the voltmeter varies between 0,6 Volts and 0,7 Volts when I crank the engine. I now plan to place the bike on a stand with the rear wheel of the ground and remove the spark plugs. With the bike in 5th gear I will rotate the rear wheel until the magnetic point on the camshaft is aligned with the sensor. In my opinion the reading on terminal 3 should then be 5 volts if the sensor is working. If broken no reading if I am correct? 

When looking at different forums on internet I get different view's on the importance of the cam position sensor. Some say it will start with a broken sensor and even with the sensor detached, while some says it is needed for the starting procedure. I don't know what's true in this?

Is there someone out there who may be willing to help with some good advises please
   

[Scotty]

Damaged/faulty cam position sensor can make the bike hard to start as code 42 only comes up when bike is running, however bike should still start all things being equal.
When cranking the pin 3 should be between 2-4vdc and should be less than 1 volt or between 6-10 volts when not cranking.
2001 up ignition modules did not require the cam sensor so if you have access to a 2001 - 2003 module that would be a good test.
Remove the cam sensor and crank the motor and see if the gear with raised edge for cam sensor timing is turning.
Has anyone been in the cam chest?

[Dagrein]

Thanks a lot for your advices Scotty.
I have tried with a ignition module from a 2002 Deuce, but still no hints of willingness to start. Cranks easily but completely dead...
I will try tomorrow to turn the engine so the flange on the camshaft is aligned with the cam sensor and then do a new measuring of voltage on pin 3.

I opened the timing cover today and the gear with the flange on is rotating when I turn the engine. I was actually surprised how long this flange was. I expected it to be like 1/4 of an inch only.

It doesn't seem like anyone has been in the cam chest, but this I don't know for sure. What did you have in mind regarding this? 

Thanks

[Scotty]

I was thinking if the bike had the cams updated and the wrong gear put on with no raised lip but yours has it.
If you have access to a running bike try swapping the coil and/or the crank position sensor on the front of the motor especially since the 2002 module did not work.

[Hossamania]

Have you checked compression?

[Dagrein]

Thanks Scotty
I have already tried the coil from my 2002 Deuce. Lots of spark on both plugs from both coils. New plugs too.
The crank position sensor is all new. I got it from my Harley dealer two weeks ago, so this should not be the problem.

Thanks Hossamania
I will do a leak down test today to check if the compression is ok.

[smoserx1]

When looking at different forums on internet I get different view's on the importance of the cam position sensor. Some say it will start with a broken sensor and even with the sensor detached, while some says it is needed for the starting procedure. I don't know what's true in this?

I have also heard conflicting information.  Some say it will start 50% of the time w/o the cam sensor and others say it will start but the ECM will default to the old "wasted spark" method.  In any event if you replace the ignition module with a superseded one this sensor is not used anymore.  I had to replace my original ignition nodule.  The replacement has the same PN followed by an "a", and it does not use the cam sensor.  mine is 100% disconnected and has been so for years.  Anyway my SM says for the three wires going to it one is 5 volts, one is ground and one returns 2-3 volts back to the ECM, so what scotty said is right on.  And like Hoss said the cam sprockets used with cam pos sensors have a raised ridge in them, about 180° worth.  Good luck.  Since you can't get the bike to crank at all it sounds like something else.

[chaos901]

You indicated you were getting lots of spark and that the fuel is being delivered.  The compression test will let you know if the valves are working and not hung.


My question is the spark being deliverd at the right time; as in plug wires on the wrong plugs or plugged into the coil in reverse.   

[Dagrein]

Thanks Smoserx1
I also have a 2002 Deuce. The ignition module on this bike has the "A" in the PN. I tried it on my 2000 Deuce, but there wasn't any difference with this module. When I removed the cam sensor, I could clearly see this raised ridge going going about 180 degrees.


Thanks chaos901
I didn't get time to do the compression test today. I will use a leakdown tester, which measure the cylinder leakage by comparing the added air pressure with the pressure the cylinder can hold .

[Scotty]

Make sure lower spark plug wire on coil is short one to rear cylinder and long one goes to upper and to front cylinder. Wires are crossed over on a twin cam.

[Dagrein]

Thanks Scotty
I will check the cables.

[Scotty]

Not much left to check if cam chest has not been touched and you have fuel and spark and the plug wires running to the correct pole on the coil then you have enough for combustion to take place if the valves are working. Fuel, oxygen, compression and the spark at the right time is what make the motor run 

[Dagrein]

Thanks Scotty
On both my Deuce's, the upper cable goes to rear cylinder. One of my bikes is running fine and the other one won't start. I haven't had the plug wires removed from the coil on any of my bikes, so to me it seems like this is how it's supposed to be?

[FSG]

my 03 Fatty

[chaos901]

Shoot, now more curious about the compression test that HOSS suggested earlier. 

[Scotty]

Thanks Scotty
On both my Deuce's, the upper cable goes to rear cylinder. One of my bikes is running fine and the other one won't start. I haven't had the plug wires removed from the coil on any of my bikes, so to me it seems like this is how it's supposed to be?

My mistake I was looking at an EVO when I said that and they don't care which one they are plugged into.
Note to self to put glasses on when looking at bikes and see what motor they have. 

[barny7655]

the old KISS  spark, fuel, air,make sure the run button is where it should be ,make sure there is fuel flowing when cranking through the hose to bowl,make sure choke isnt stuck or fowled up ,throttle working properly , a squirt of start you bastard in the inlet will help out as to spark, the fault will be simple , if the mechanics are there,[compresson]  cheers

[Dagrein]

Hello guys
Today I finally got the time to do a compression test and a cylinder leak down test.

The result of the compression test shows 100 psi on both cylinders. Keep in mind that I had to do the test on cold engine. According to the manual the test is supposed to be done on warm engine.

The leak down test result is 5% leakage on front cylinder and 2,5% on rear cylinder. According to the manual, a racing engine has 5% or better, so since this is far from a racing engine, I would say that 2,5/ 5,0 % is excellent.

[rredneckn2]

Did you test with throttle wide open? 100 psi is low in my opinion. I would expect 150/160 on a stock 88

[Dagrein]

Thanks rredneckn2
No the trottle wasn't open. You mean that an open trottle would maybe allow for more air to be compressed?

[jrgreene1968]

Thanks rredneckn2
No the trottle wasn't open. You mean that an open trottle would maybe allow for more air to be compressed?

Yep.. can't compress it if it don't get in there

[rredneckn2]

JRGreene1968 answered your question. Make sure battery is fully charged. Pull both plugs hook both to wires then ground to cylinders or heads to prevent coil damage. Open throttle completely and spin it over.

[Dagrein]

Hello guys
Good news, especially for me..today I got the bike started up

First I took a new compression test with trottle fully open. This time I got 145 psi on front cylinder and 147 psi on rear cylinder with cold engine. I also replaced the O-rings on the compression tester.

While I had the plugs out, I added some gas directly into the cylinders and then put the plugs back in and pushed the start button. The bike fired right away but would not run. I tried using a syringe to squirt gas right into the intake. the biked fired this time too. After several tries with the same result I took the carb of and disassembled it. It shows that the slow jet wasn't open, even though I had it apart once before and made sure all jets were open. Maybe I have overlooked the slow jet the first time, I don't know. But now everything seems to be ok :-)

[Ajayrk]

 

[rredneckn2]

Good Deal