tensioner project finished

[chas]

Hi- I finished installing cam chain tensioners last week, and when I started it up it was making a clacking metal noise. It was running rough and stalled out. I figured the push rods were loose and readjusted was pretty sure they were where they should be. Started it again and was the same. Any thoughts?

[Tacocaster]

Have to make LOTS of assumptions here where limited detail was provided but I'll go ahead regardless....did you roll it over a few times (using top gear and spinning rear tire method prior to lighting it up? Did you have oil pressure? If no, how long did you run it before closing it down? Are you running EZ-Start Cams? Did you encounter anything difficult to do in your replacement process?

I'm sure the really smart people will chime-in here shortly with better assistance but we can at least give them some meat to chew on with your response to these simple questions.

[les]

As mentioned, it could be several things.  Which do you think it might be:

- Cam timing off
- Oil pump guts assembled in the wrong order
- Lifter alignment pins not installed
- Improper pushrod adjustment
- Chain adjuster snap rings came off

[Hossamania]

Is the oil pressure light on?

[chaos901]

Did you give time for the lifters to bleed down when you were doing the adjustment on the pushrods?

[chas]

I did have the bike in 5th gear to move to tdc to adjust the pushrods. I didn't have it in 5th gear to turn it over before starting. I didnt touch the lifters or the oil pump. Oil pressure was good, I ran bike for maybe 3 mins, it made clacking noise and just stopped. The first time I tried to start it, it would not start so i thought i had to re adjust push rods. After adjustment it started but didnt sound right, so i adjusted again and it sounded the same and thats when it just stalled. Am I missing something about the push rod adjustment?

[codyshop]

I agree with the earlier post that your cam timing is off.  Outside of forgetting parts, the cams being off one tooth results in what you describe.   

[chas]

would that be the timing between the 2 cams or the timing between the crank and the cams?

[Hossamania]

would that be the timing between the 2 cams or the timing between the crank and the cams?

Could be either or both.
Asked earlier, when adjusting pushrods, did you wait for them to bleed down and the rods able to spin with your fingers before rotating the motor to adjust the other set?

[jrgreene1968]

You might want to check compression. If you rolled it before lifters bled down, or got the cam timing off, could have bent a valve

[les]

You might want to check compression. If you rolled it before lifters bled down, or got the cam timing off, could have bent a valve

I agree.  A compression leak down test is something I typically do as a first step, just to eliminate any distraction that something is abnormal with the valves.

[smoserx1]

A simple way to check your cam timing is as follows:  With the cam cover off rotate the engine till the two dots (one on rear cam sprocket and the other on crank sprocket) align with the mark on the cam plate (on 99-06 models you may need to remove the bolt from the crank sprocket to see its dot).  The two dots should be exactly opposite each other.  If you can't get them lined up timing is off, and is most likely the outer chain.  If this test passes, while the dots are still aligned look at the dot on the front cam (stock cams might have a faint line instead of a dot).  It should be at the 9:00 o'clock position.  If not, the timing is off (inner chain).  Correct as necessary.  Now adjust the pushrods while the cam cover is still off.  With the timing as described above, adjust the rear cylinder pushrods.  Wait for bleed-down.  Next rotate the engine clockwise till the dot on the rear cam sprocket is at the 12:00 o'clock position and adjust the front cylinder pushrods.  Don't forget to reinstall the crank sprocket bolt if you removed it earlier to see the dot.  Reinstall the cam cover.  I  don't know why this method of finding the base circles is not covered in the service manual but it works and takes all the guesswork out.

[chas]

Thanks Smoserx1 your instruction on the timing makes sense! I did think the service manual was vaque on the timing method. It seems nothing tells you better about tdc than the crank and everything relative to it.

[Don D]

I get the same emails and calls. Damage may already be done

I did have the bike in 5th gear to move to tdc to adjust the pushrods.

OK so which TDC, Compression or Overlap?
Roll the motor over with the pushrod clips off. rear intake at max lift, front intake, can you move it up and down? If so the bike engine was not on TDC compression. For the guys that have not done these a lot it is easier to leave the cam cover off and adjust the rear cylinder with the marks lined up and turn the motor over clockwise and when the top mark is at 1:00 adjust the front.

[chas]

Someone says move motor clockwise until 12:00 to adjust front cyl, and someone says 1:00! Which is it 12 or 1?

[No Cents]

   with back tire off the ground, the tranny in high gear, and spark plugs out. Have someone rotate the rear tire (clockwise) while you hold your finger over a plug hole. When it's on the compression stroke you will feel it building pressure and it will want to blow your finger off the plug hole. To find exact TDC take a straw and place it in the plug hole on top the piston and have your helper slowly roll the tire until the straw has been lifted to it's highest point. You now have your TDC. If you go too far...just roll the tire backwards a little bit and try again. Both lifters for that cylinder should be at their lowest point and the cams will be on their base circle. You can adjust both of those lifters. Once you have adjusted them...let them bleed down until you can spin them in your fingers. Once you can spin them...you can roll the engine over and repeat the process to find TDC on the other cylinder.

[jrgreene1968]

   with back tire off the ground, the tranny in high gear, and spark plugs out. Have someone rotate the rear tire (clockwise) while you hold your finger over a plug hole. When it's on the compression stroke you will feel it building pressure and it will want to blow your finger off the plug hole. To find exact TDC take a straw and place it in the plug hole on top the piston and have your helper slowly roll the tire until the straw has been lifted to it's highest point. You now have your TDC. If you go too far...just roll the tire backwards a little bit and try again. Both lifters for that cylinder should be at their lowest point and the cams will be on their base circle. You can adjust both of those lifters. Once you have adjusted them...let them bleed down until you can spin them in your fingers. Once you can spin them...you can roll the engine over and repeat the process to find TDC on the other cylinder.

That's how I do it 

[smoserx1]

Someone says move motor clockwise until 12:00 to adjust front cyl, and someone says 1:00! Which is it 12 or 1?

Approximately 12:00 was where I found the rear cam dot to be at front cylinder TDCC.  The dot on the crank sprocket was about 1:00 to 1:30.  I used to post pics of this till photobucket pulled them.

[codyshop]

Someone says move motor clockwise until 12:00 to adjust front cyl, and someone says 1:00! Which is it 12 or 1?

Approximately 12:00 was where I found the rear cam dot to be at front cylinder TDCC.  The dot on the crank sprocket was about 1:00 to 1:30.  I used to post pics of this till photobucket pulled them.

Dots MUST face each other.  Rear cam must be at three o'clock and front cam must be at nine o'clock  "Dot to dot, or your motor is shot."

[Hilly13]

These may be of some help.

[attach=0,msg1295501]

[attach=1,msg1295501]

[FSG]

   who did those   

[Scotty]

The photos will help IF he has the cams aligned as well 

[Hilly13]

  who did those   

Let me guess....lol

[smoserx1]

who did those   

They were originally mine.  That is my bike just before I did conversion cams back in 2011.  Notice the crank sprocket bolt and washer are removed so the dot there is visible.  if you have a 2007 and up model the dot is visible even with the bolt installed.  The reason I didn't say anything about the cam dots earlier (actually I did) is  with the rear cylinder at TDCC as in the first photo the front cam dot is still visible of you look closely.  The rear is obviously not visible as it is covered by the large rear cam sprocket.  However if the two outer chain sprocket dots line up AND the front cam is at 9:00 the rear cam as to be at 3:00.  It cannot go on any other way and the engine is timed.  And I also agree the finger pressure test is probably the best way to find TDCC if your cam cover is on and you have a helper to rotate the rear wheel.

[Hilly13]

The photos will help IF he has the cams aligned as well 

Fair point indeed

[smoserx1]

The photos will help IF he has the cams aligned as well 

When you get ready to install the outer chain you have to install both sprockets and the chain all together.  Before you slip this 3 piece assembly on you are supposed to make sure you have it "hung" correctly and when rotated a certain way the dots will align.  If you do this AND you have previously installed your cams correctly (dot to dot at 3 and 9) the outer chain assembly will only go on the right way.

[Don D]

Someone says move motor clockwise until 12:00 to adjust front cyl, and someone says 1:00! Which is it 12 or 1?

I stand corrected, thanks

[Hossamania]

Will the outer dots line up even if the dots on the inner chain are not lined up?

[rigidthumper]

Yep- and if you're off one tooth front to rear, the power can be smooth, but low.

[smoserx1]

Hoss the rear cam sprocket has one spline tooth that is fatter than the rest and so it will only fit the rear cam one way.  The crank sprocket has a flat side so it will only go over the pinion end one way.  The first step is making sure the two cams are aligned at 9 and 3 o'clock.  If they are off by one tooth it is VERY obvious if you look close and won't pass the 9/3 oclock test.  The second step is putting the chain around the cam and crank outer sprockets.  There are any number of ways this can be done but only one way is right.  I just hold the assembly in front of me and slowly rotate it till the cam dot it at the bottom and the crank dot is at the top, directly opposite each other.  if you are off even one tooth the dots won't line up and oppose (remember this is done OFF the bike).  Adjust this till it is correct.  Now IF the cams are correct and the outer chain/sprockets assembly are BOTH correct, the outer chain assembly will only go on one way (the right way).  So, at risk of being long winded, follow this and check each step:

1.Cams at 3 and 9 oclock EXACTLY
2.Pinion flat perpendicular to index line on cam plate (rear cyl will be TDC)
3.Assemble outer chain and 2 outer sprockets OFF BIKE so dots will align and oppose then install on bike, tighten bolts, don't let engine move.
4 With the engine in this exact position adjust rear pushrods or install rocker assy if using one piece rods.  Wait for bleed down
5 Rotate engine CLOCKWISE till rear cam SPROCKET dot is at 12:00 and adjust front pushrods or install rocker assy if using one piece rods.
6.Install cam cover and whatever else.

[Hossamania]

Yes, I've done cam installs a few times, I was just asking about the inner cam marks being off, as it has happened to quite a few people that have come to this site to try and figure out why their new cams don't make the power they are supposed to. I was just asking more to get clarification that the outer dots can line up even if the inner dots are off.

[Scotty]

The photos will help IF he has the cams aligned as well 

When you get ready to install the outer chain you have to install both sprockets and the chain all together.  Before you slip this 3 piece assembly on you are supposed to make sure you have it "hung" correctly and when rotated a certain way the dots will align.  If you do this AND you have previously installed your cams correctly (dot to dot at 3 and 9) the outer chain assembly will only go on the right way.

Yes I know how to install cams. My point being that if someone does not understand the whole process and the cams are not dot to dot when put in the cam plate then the outer gear will still go on but the cams will be misaligned. Seen it done more than once and bent valves from it occurring.

Even with gear cams and chain drive cams the first thing that must be correct in the cams being aligned when going in the cam plate. If they are off then everything else will still fit on but you are going to have issues.

[Hilly13]

The photos will help IF he has the cams aligned as well 

When you get ready to install the outer chain you have to install both sprockets and the chain all together.  Before you slip this 3 piece assembly on you are supposed to make sure you have it "hung" correctly and when rotated a certain way the dots will align.  If you do this AND you have previously installed your cams correctly (dot to dot at 3 and 9) the outer chain assembly will only go on the right way.

Yes I know how to install cams. My point being that if someone does not understand the whole process and the cams are not dot to dot when put in the cam plate then the outer gear will still go on but the cams will be misaligned. Seen it done more than once and bent valves from it occurring.

Even with gear cams and chain drive cams the first thing that must be correct in the cams being aligned when going in the cam plate. If they are off then everything else will still fit on but you are going to have issues.

Yep, I sort of thought that's what might have happened going by the description but seeing as he said he was back to adjusting pushrods I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that was all good.

[chas]

Hi all- Just finished getting the bike back together. Started it up and all is well! I want to thank you guys for your in put with aligning the cams, sprocket diagrams etc... I will feel more confident next winter when I go in again to replace lifters, bearings and cams. I'm looking for a low to mid torgue cam for the touring ultra, without head work. Any suggestions? Just need a little more pull and i will be happy! Thanks again

[Hossamania]

What year and motor? Need that to suggest cams.
Andrews 48 is always a good cam for 96" and 103" motors in touring bikes. Also the CR570-2 in 103" motors.

[les]

What year and motor? Need that to suggest cams.
Andrews 48 is always a good cam for 96" and 103" motors in touring bikes. Also the CR570-2 in 103" motors.

I like the 48 too.

[IronButt70]

Just put a TTS100 in my 103 touring softail. Lotsa low end pull. 

[chas]

I have an a 03 ultra 88

[MikeL]

I have used the Andrews 37 in my 2000 rkc with just air cleaner and pipe. I have installed S&S 510's and SE-203's with good results also.

                                                                                                      MIKE

[Hossamania]

The S&S 509 is a good cam for the 88's in a touring bike, Andrews 26, Andrews 21.