New build - no spark, no fuel

[chris.m.j]

Finished assembly on a 95" build and can't get it to start. No spark found with the spark checker, and the spark plugs are dry so I assume no fuel getting there.

When I turn the key to 'run' the lights come on and the 'check engine' light comes on for a few seconds then turns off like it's supposed to. The fuel pump energizes for two seconds. The battery is charged and connected properly, the run/kill switch is on, the spark wires are correctly aligned, etc.

When I press the start button I can hear the starter turn over but it sounds really labored with a "woomp...woomp...woomp" and the lights all dim.

From the reading I've done it seems like two possible paths: 1) compression issues where the ECM won't send signals for spark and fuel because of low/no compression or 2) electrical issues where somewhere there is misconnection, like a broken wire/pin.

Anyone have some advice before I start down the path of troubleshooting? I'll post something I found from another forum to see what folks think.

[chris.m.j]

This is something I found on another forum:

OK, Your ECM is operating (engine light on) so the problem is in the fuel system wiring.

According to the schematic check the wire from the system relay socket pin 87 Y/GN Yellow and green. This wire should have 12 volts after the relay is energized and supplies 12 volts to the injectors, the fuel pump (fused) and the ignition coils. The system relay is energized by the ECM.

When you turn the ignition on and the run top switch off you should hear nothing. When you flip the run stop switch to run you should hear the fuel pump run for about 2 seconds and the check engine light should light for about 4 seconds.

You said the check engine light is on; do you hear the fuel pump? If not then check the voltage at pin 85 GR/O (green and orange) wire on the back of the system relay. This the 12 volts to energize the relay.

If the relay is energizing, check the voltage at pin 30 BE/GY (Beige and Grey) of the system relay, this is 12 volt supply voltage that is switched to pin 87 when the relay is energized and feeds the injectors, fuel pump, and ignition coil pack. This is 12volts from the run stop switch through the ignition fuse where it splits to the ECM and the system relay. while you are there check the fuel pump fuse.

You are close so don't give up yet. Also try the wiggle test. If the fuel pump does not energized when the run stop switch is set to run the wiggle the wiring around the back of the power panel and the ignition coils I suspect there is an open wire or bad connection in that area.

[86fxwg]

Check compression (with a Gage). U said u hear the pump. No compression then u need to get that figured out.
If u have compression, re-install plugs use external fuel source (IE carb cleaner, flammable brake cleaner). If the bike runs then u have a fuel issue. (IE injector pulse,low fuel pressure).
I have seen a few that the hydraulic connector @ the botton of the tank getts a worn spot on the male side not letting fuel thru,if ya held up on the fitting the bike would run.

Most dont have a fuel pressure gauge, but u can cross that bridge if the bike runs on the external fuel source.


86

[wood02]

I recently had the same symptoms with my 2003 FLSTCI...it was the systems relay switch...HD dealer charged me $12.00 for the part.  This switch sends control of the fuel pump and the ignition coils to the ECM.

[PoorUB]

Did you check the spark with the spark plugs in the engine and used a spark tester or a third spark plug. The ECM needs to see the engine slow down on the compression stroke to fire the plugs. If the fuel pump runs, check the quick disconnect where the fuel line goes into the bottom of the tank. (You did plug in the fuel line? correct?) Disconnect it and reconnect it. Some times the QD doesn't seat properly.

[Hossamania]

Charge and check the battery. Try jumping it with a car battery. Do not have the car running.

[Sycho01]

Load test the battery after a full charge. You can do this using your volt meter and the starter on the bike. Crank the engine for 15 secs with the volt meter connected to the battery. If the voltage drops below 10 volts replace the battery.
Are the valves adjusted correctly? No compression equals no ignition and no fuel in a ion sensing ignition.
Did the engine try to start and backfire? If so, you may have a bent vale or pushrod causing low or no compression.

[Hossamania]

The slow turnover and "womp" "womp" "womp" description and dimming lights leads me to a weak battery.

[BVHOG]

My first thought is you need to pull the plugs and crank that engine a while to get the lifters pumped up. The likely reason for the hard cranking and the dimming is the valves are simply not opening enough causing excessive cranking pressure. Now the result of this will be very low voltage which will result in no spark.  As for the fuel you need to check the plug in at the tank, the small pins can easily get bent to the side if not plugged in very carefully. You don't say what bike you have but guessing a softail or dyna. What you are likely hearing when you turn the key on is the IAC setting itself and not the fuel pump.

[fbn ent]

I agree with Hoss...use the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid). Battery first (check for cranking Voltage) then the fuel connection (you said the pump runs, right?). The rest of the suggestions are a continuing map for troubleshooting.....you'll get it. Keep us posted.

[chris.m.j]

Did you check the spark with the spark plugs in the engine and used a spark tester or a third spark plug. The ECM needs to see the engine slow down on the compression stroke to fire the plugs. If the fuel pump runs, check the quick disconnect where the fuel line goes into the bottom of the tank. (You did plug in the fuel line? correct?) Disconnect it and reconnect it. Some times the QD doesn't seat properly.

I checked with a spark tester with the plugs in the engine and didn't see anything. I'll double check the quick disconnect.

[chris.m.j]

Check compression (with a Gage). U said u hear the pump. No compression then u need to get that figured out.
If u have compression, re-install plugs use external fuel source (IE carb cleaner, flammable brake cleaner). If the bike runs then u have a fuel issue. (IE injector pulse,low fuel pressure).
I have seen a few that the hydraulic connector @ the botton of the tank getts a worn spot on the male side not letting fuel thru,if ya held up on the fitting the bike would run.

Most dont have a fuel pressure gauge, but u can cross that bridge if the bike runs on the external fuel source.

I'll do a compression check first. then move on to the the electrical stuff.

[chris.m.j]

Load test the battery after a full charge. You can do this using your volt meter and the starter on the bike. Crank the engine for 15 secs with the volt meter connected to the battery. If the voltage drops below 10 volts replace the battery.
Are the valves adjusted correctly? No compression equals no ignition and no fuel in a ion sensing ignition.
Did the engine try to start and backfire? If so, you may have a bent vale or pushrod causing low or no compression.

No backfire, only the slow woomp...woomp...woomp each time I've tried to start it. I'll check the battery with a voltmeter.

And for the valves, I assume they are adjusted correctly. They were installed by the shop who did the heads. I re-assembled the top end with what they worked on. The biggest doubt I have is if I installed the adjustable pushrods correctly. I put the pistons at TDC, found the base circle on the cam, and adjusted the rods as instructed.

[chris.m.j]

The slow turnover and "womp" "womp" "womp" description and dimming lights leads me to a weak battery.

Would a weak battery have no spark in the spark tester? I can try jumping it with my micro start jumper. I avoided jumping it when I saw the spark wasn't there.

[chris.m.j]

My first thought is you need to pull the plugs and crank that engine a while to get the lifters pumped up. The likely reason for the hard cranking and the dimming is the valves are simply not opening enough causing excessive cranking pressure. Now the result of this will be very low voltage which will result in no spark.  As for the fuel you need to check the plug in at the tank, the small pins can easily get bent to the side if not plugged in very carefully. You don't say what bike you have but guessing a softail or dyna. What you are likely hearing when you turn the key on is the IAC setting itself and not the fuel pump.

Yeah, it's a Dyna Wide Glide. So pull the plugs and crank it a few times to get the lifters pumped up. I'll try that after checking the fuel quick disconnect and the plug-ins.

[Heinz]

Do you have automatic compression releases plugged in correctly and enabled in your calibration?

[kd]

Do you have automatic compression releases plugged in correctly and enabled in your calibration?

A 95" build would have started out as an 88" TC.  There would not have been OEM acr's.  The OP may have used a set though.  I think a year and parts used layout may be helpful here.

[fbn ent]

"And for the valves, I assume they are adjusted correctly. They were installed by the shop who did the heads. I re-assembled the top end with what they worked on. The biggest doubt I have is if I installed the adjustable pushrods correctly. I put the pistons at TDC, found the base circle on the cam, and adjusted the rods as instructed."

You did let it sit for a beer or so before turning it over right? Do a re-set on the valves and see what happens....

[Hossamania]

The slow turnover and "womp" "womp" "womp" description and dimming lights leads me to a weak battery.

Would a weak battery have no spark in the spark tester? I can try jumping it with my micro start jumper. I avoided jumping it when I saw the spark wasn't there.

Yes, a weak battery could affect your spark.

[fbn ent]

 

[chris.m.j]

Do you have automatic compression releases plugged in correctly and enabled in your calibration?

A 95" build would have started out as an 88" TC.  There would not have been OEM acr's.  The OP may have used a set though.  I think a year and parts used layout may be helpful here.

It's a 2005 Wide Glide EFI that went from 88 to 95. I upgraded to a hydraulic cam plate, S&S 585s, headwork done with new springs, screamin eagle pistons, adjustable pushrods, S&S hydraulic lifters. So no ACR's that I know of.

[chris.m.j]

"And for the valves, I assume they are adjusted correctly. They were installed by the shop who did the heads. I re-assembled the top end with what they worked on. The biggest doubt I have is if I installed the adjustable pushrods correctly. I put the pistons at TDC, found the base circle on the cam, and adjusted the rods as instructed."

You did let it sit for a beer or so before turning it over right? Do a re-set on the valves and see what happens....

Much longer than that. The lifters and rods have probably sat for two weeks between finishing assembly and work and being out of town.

[fbn ent]

I meant turning it the do the other pushrod sets....

[chaos901]

Simple stuff first.  Like has been mentioned before get the battery fully charged and load test.  If the battery voltage drops below a certain level the ECM does not work.  Starter would still turn (slow) but nothing would happen.

[chris.m.j]

Simple stuff first.  Like has been mentioned before get the battery fully charged and load test.  If the battery voltage drops below a certain level the ECM does not work.  Starter would still turn (slow) but nothing would happen.

Seems to be a battery issue. It started up with a jumper pack, but wouldn't without. Voltage when trying to start on its own dropped well below 10.

And the second time I started with the jumper it didn't run very long. Maybe 10 seconds and died. At least I know it runs. To the battery store tomorrow.