Anti-seize on head nuts

[JW113]

The loud 'crack' one hears when breaking open a torqued bolt doesn't come from the thread! ----

The 'crack' is the breaking of the bond between the washer/bolt-flange and the sub-assembly.

Hmm. I don't think that is the case. My observation is that the head nut is turning, but it's not breaking loose from the threads on the stud. When it finally does, CRACK! It does not appear to be a case of the flange on the nut sticking to the head, but rather the threads in the nut sticking to the threads on the stud.

By the way, HD cylinder studs are 3/8-16 thread...

-JW

[Maddo Snr]

Hmm. I don't think that is the case. My observation is that the head nut is turning, but it's not breaking loose from the threads on the stud. When it finally does, CRACK! It does not appear to be a case of the flange on the nut sticking to the head, but rather the threads in the nut sticking to the threads on the stud...
-JW

Ok oh, that's bad.
Obviously, if the head's turning it's the thread that's locked up. If the bolt-head is free try warming the alloy head and the spraying the 'bolt only' with Freeze-it. It'll decrease the chance of snapping the bolt.

Not much you can do in those cases JW except hope. if you're a Catholic like me, St Jude is always an option...

[JW113]

So I think we all agree, "follow the manual" is good advice. To wit:

[attach=0]

"Thoroughly clean and lubricate", check. "With engine oil", check. No mention about a drop at the start of threads, by the way. Personally, I don't think it makes any difference how much oil is on the threads, the nut is going to push away any excess.

The point of this whole thread/question was about using Anti-Seize instead of motor oil. Anti-seize is a grease with finely ground aluminum, copper, and graphite powder in it. It's main purpose is to prevent corrosion between the two sets of threads. Permatex says it has the same lubricity on threads as motor oil, so it should not affect the factory's recommended torque requiremens.

My thoughts on using this instead of motor oil was that it might be less prone to sticking the head nut to the cylinder stud during disassembly. Heads get pretty hot. When you get an oil leak from a rocker box onto the head, after a while it bakes into some pretty nasty and sticky stuff, sometimes hard to remove without solvents. So if there is motor oil in the threads of the head nut, how can that also not get baked into sticky carbon? Is that maybe why Harley head nuts stick to the studs and go CRACK when you break them loose?

Screw it. Am gonna give it a try. Will let you know what happens if I ever have to take this thing apart anytime soon. (hopefully NOT though!!!)

-JW

[koko3052]

Hmm. I don't think that is the case. My observation is that the head nut is turning, but it's not breaking loose from the threads on the stud. When it finally does, CRACK! It does not appear to be a case of the flange on the nut sticking to the head, but rather the threads in the nut sticking to the threads on the stud...
-JW

Ok oh, that's bad.
Obviously, if the head's turning it's the thread that's locked up. If the bolt-head is free try warming the alloy head and the spraying the 'bolt only' with Freeze-it. It'll decrease the chance of snapping the bolt.

Not much you can do in those cases JW except hope. if you're a Catholic like me, St Jude is always an option...

How are you able to "spray the bolt" when you can't see it...Catholic or not?
Also I've tried that "freeze it" crap & was a waist of time & money! JMHO

[kd]

So I think we all agree, "follow the manual" is good advice. To wit:

[attach=0]

"Thoroughly clean and lubricate", check. "With engine oil", check. No mention about a drop at the start of threads, by the way. Personally, I don't think it makes any difference how much oil is on the threads, the nut is going to push away any excess.

The point of this whole thread/question was about using Anti-Seize instead of motor oil. Anti-seize is a grease with finely ground aluminum, copper, and graphite powder in it. It's main purpose is to prevent corrosion between the two sets of threads. Permatex says it has the same lubricity on threads as motor oil, so it should not affect the factory's recommended torque requiremens.

My thoughts on using this instead of motor oil was that it might be less prone to sticking the head nut to the cylinder stud during disassembly. Heads get pretty hot. When you get an oil leak from a rocker box onto the head, after a while it bakes into some pretty nasty and sticky stuff, sometimes hard to remove without solvents. So if there is motor oil in the threads of the head nut, how can that also not get baked into sticky carbon? Is that maybe why Harley head nuts stick to the studs and go CRACK when you break them loose?

Screw it. Am gonna give it a try. Will let you know what happens if I ever have to take this thing apart anytime soon. (hopefully NOT though!!!)

-JW

JW, in reply 2 my initial suggestion was "follow the manufacturers instructions" and it was repeated and agreed upon several times.  Then we veered off track a bit bunch.  By the time we got back to your OP several of us had offered "opinions" a bit off topic.  The context of the drop of oil on the start of the threads statement was made in regard to wheel fasteners and as something I personally use as a default when no manufacturers instructions are given or available.  Clearly,  if you continue to follow the manufacturers instructions accurately you will be golden.  However, IMO, if you want to change the recipe (like you would baking a cake), don't blame the MOCO or Permatex for a stupid design.  One thing to consider here is these torque spec numbers are not high so deviation from the numbers will not likely be critical.  The way I see it, the important part of this procedure (or any assembly procedure for that matter) is the consistency of the first steps which draws the head down evenly on the cylinder surface. The last move sets the clamping pressure.

BTW, to your issue with the dry thread upon removal, you can expect that to happen in most cases where a reasonable amount of torque is used to tighten a fastener (lubed or not).  The working side of the thread will squeeze / shear out any oil residue during the higher tightening sequence causing stictional grip. Compounds like the ARP application will be made to leave a residue under high pressure. (I expect a good synthetic oil may do the same)  Your idea to use Coppercoat or a similar lube will likely compare somewhat to the ARP stuff.  It was once discussed on here what the difference was between the OEM torque instructions and the Cometic.  Testing showed that Cometic'c instructions provided more clamping pressure.  Heavy danger there if you deviated to the plus side with the risk of pulling studs as you have already acknowledged.   Either way, both worked fine when following the instructions if the foundation components were healthy.  If it doesn't leak, you may never have to take it apart and you will never know.   

[Norton Commando]

So I think we all agree, "follow the manual" is good advice. To wit:

[attach=0,msg1277142]

"Thoroughly clean and lubricate", check. "With engine oil", check. No mention about a drop at the start of threads, by the way. Personally, I don't think it makes any difference how much oil is on the threads, the nut is going to push away any excess.

The point of this whole thread/question was about using Anti-Seize instead of motor oil. Anti-seize is a grease with finely ground aluminum, copper, and graphite powder in it. It's main purpose is to prevent corrosion between the two sets of threads. Permatex says it has the same lubricity on threads as motor oil, so it should not affect the factory's recommended torque requiremens.

My thoughts on using this instead of motor oil was that it might be less prone to sticking the head nut to the cylinder stud during disassembly. Heads get pretty hot. When you get an oil leak from a rocker box onto the head, after a while it bakes into some pretty nasty and sticky stuff, sometimes hard to remove without solvents. So if there is motor oil in the threads of the head nut, how can that also not get baked into sticky carbon? Is that maybe why Harley head nuts stick to the studs and go CRACK when you break them loose?

Screw it. Am gonna give it a try. Will let you know what happens if I ever have to take this thing apart anytime soon. (hopefully NOT though!!!)

-JW

I guess the only question is how does the friction coefficient of motor oil compare with your particular anti-seize. If the friction coefficient for anti-seize is less than motor oil, there is a slight risk overloading the stud. Having said that, the turn-of-nut  method of preloading eliminates much of the frictional variations.

Best,

Jason

[RoadGlide18]

Depending on the type of anti-seize it will remain on the bolt.  So...  when you remove the bolt it will not be rusted in, or dryed out but be allowed to be removed with less effort.  I would assume but never tested that the removal torque should be close, more due to stiction.   Most times i've seen this stuff used is on lug nuts, exhaust bolts, ect.  It works great as a slide lube on my auto's but that another topic.

JK

[Pete_Vit]

Using a lube on the threads will also lead to an over torqued fastener.  Follow the OEM procedure or someone like Cometic with their gaskets and all should be good.

One of the reasons I like the x pre torque plus the 90* rotation. Can't over torque this way and it uses the degrees for stretch rather then more or less thread and head bolt contact frictional differences that skews actual torque values the wrench alone gives. Cometic not immune to this effect. Just saying.
Ron

[Maddo Snr]

How are you able to "spray the bolt" when you can't see it...

Pack cotton wadding around the bolt head to preserve heat in the alloy assembly and then spray the bolt-head with Freez-it.  It works, I've seen old-school guys use the same procedure in car race pits with the oxy torch and ice cubes.

[Maddo Snr]

...Having said that, the turn-of-nut  method of preloading eliminates much of the frictional variations.

Best,

Jason

And introduces another variable Jase in that now thread elongation is proportion to pitch. Which is why Top Fuel guys only use a dial micrometer to check elongation, no torque wrench, no angular.

[Moparnut72]

The pinch bolt that clamps the two parts of a radial engine crank together have a dimple at each end. It would take three of us to put one of these together. Ball bearing balls had to be held in each of the dimples while one guy measured the length with a micrometer. It also take three of us to tighten the bolt, two to hold the crank and one to pull on the breaker bar with a cheater bar. It took a lot of force to tighten one of those.   

[JW113]

I am at a loss why you guys are compare top fuel and airplane engines and measuring bolt elongation to this. No offense intended, but it sounds like you don't have any idea what we're talking about. Harley Davidson cylinder studs, screwed into the engine case at one end, passing through the cylinders and heads, totally blind, and the only thing exposed at the top of the head is the top of the head nut. There is nothing to measure! Thread elongation??? Really? I think you're misapplying mechanical engineering here.

The factory's method is to get the head nuts all to a fairly equil but light clamping force, and to compress the head gasket. Then a 90 degree turn gives a pretty good appoximation of stretching the cylinder studs an additional 0.016". Done! Every time I've done this using a beam torque wrench to see how much torque is actually being applied, it's only about 32-35 ft/lbs.

There is a reason for such a light torque/clamp force on these cylinder studs. When you assemble the engine, all the metal is at room temperature. When those aluminum heads and cylinders get hot, they grow. A LOT. The steel studs, not so much. So the clamp force goes up substantially when the motor is at operating temp. Which is yet another reason that you should not fire up a cold EVO or TC and run it through the gears at WFO bouncing off the redline...

-JW

[kd]

 

[nibroc]

........still don't know what an evo twin cam is.......

[JW113]

Nibroc you smartass!

Evo / Twin Cam

Happy?



-JW

[rageglide]

Back to the question...    We know FSM says clean threads and lightly lube with engine oil on threads and underside of head.   Hot engine, bakes oil and "glues" the threads together.

Anti-sieze would be less likely to glue the threads.   But then why doesn't anyone do it, Factory is clear, engine oil only.   Yet people are happy to use non-factory torque method.  From Harley product engineers perspective, MLS or Composite head gasket, they recommend the same 90 degree method.

Is there an engine oil that might be less likely to bake?  Synthetic?  But wait won't that be too slippery?  lol     

[JW113]

They don't recommend anti-seize because the motor company has not yet repacked somebody else's product into Genuine (tm) Harley-Davidson Anti-Seize.



-JW

[Billy]

They don't recommend anti-seize because the motor company has not yet repacked somebody else's product into Genuine (tm) Harley-Davidson Anti-Seize.



-JW

https://www.harley-davidson.com/store/loctite-anti-seize-lubricant

[JW113]

No. That's not "HD Endorsed Ca-Ca". That's "Permatex". Big difference, doncha know? Like "their" oil vs. anbody else's oil. Big difference. Whatsa matter wit you? Kool-Aid. You need to drink da Kool-Aid. Make all better.

-JW

[rageglide]

Like diss...

https://www.harley-davidson.com/store/electrical-contact-lubricant-pa-12-9986102--1

[Billy]

No. That's not "HD Endorsed Ca-Ca". That's "Permatex". Big difference, doncha know? Like "their" oil vs. anbody else's oil. Big difference. Whatsa matter wit you? Kool-Aid. You need to drink da Kool-Aid. Make all better.

-JW

[rbabos]

Like diss...

https://www.harley-davidson.com/store/electrical-contact-lubricant-pa-12-9986102--1

Chit. All my electrical connections will rot off now. I only used Permatex dielectric on my bike.
Ron