March 29, 2024, 07:22:57 AM

News:


Four Speed Clutch

Started by rkrcpa, March 14, 2019, 02:29:12 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

rkrcpa

I'm finally getting the Shovel back on the road after a long sleep...(apparently everyone who said I wouldn't ride the Shovel after I bought a Twin Cam was correct) I need to replace the clutch. The clutch has given me 40,000 miles so I guess it's about time. My question is, the plates have worn grooves in the pins on the hub and I think the liner is probably shot as well.

What is the current best thinking on these clutches? Should I stick with the 3 stud or get a 5 stud? Does Brand matter? Is there even more than one manufacturer?

david lee

my hd  mech changed mine to 5 stud on his recomendation

dusty1


carioux2008

I've got a Drag Specialties 5 finger hub in mine. Works great. I don't think there's any real advantage in going 3 vs 5 fingers. They both adjust pretty easily, I can adjust mine in about 5 minutes and be meticulous about it. The service manual states you can file the grooves smooth, but for 100 bones you can just get a new one and have no worries. 3 finger or 5 finger will work just fine on a relatively stock bike as long as it's adjusted properly. 1-1/32 inch from the pressure plate to the machined area on top of the springs. Even all around. Good luck with it.

JW113

Agree with carioux, 3 or 5 will work just fine. Although I don't really see what the 5 finger brings to the table, unless you are using springs with so much pressure that they would bend the stock sheet metal pressure plate. I'm using a 3 finger hub with one of those aluminum pressure plates, along with a Ramm Jet clutch retainer. Clutch action is perfect, no creep at lights and no problem finding neutral. For especially stock use, I think the 3 finger is great if you use these other parts.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

guppymech

I betcha that on the 5 studs at least one nut is always loose.  3 stud is like a 3 legged stool, always planted.  Use whatever you like.
'84 FXE, '02 883R

JW113

Heh, heh, I started to mention that but deleted. Didn't want to hear otherwise from the guys that actually have 5 finger hubs. But from a purely mechanical point of view, that would be the case if the adjusting nuts only allow 1/2 turn between lock dents. If you had a pressure plate that didn't have the detents, and use those "aero" type lock nut with the plastic friction lock, I suppose you could dial all 5 in to be pretty even. But I'm still thinking that if you use a very stiff (i.e. aluminum) pressure plate, what does the 5 finger hub bring to the party? 3 & 5 hubs both have 10 fingers taking the engine torque.

Just asking!

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

crock

March 16, 2019, 05:56:49 AM #7 Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 02:58:08 PM by FSG
Quote from: JW113 on March 15, 2019, 04:50:10 PM
Heh, heh, I started to mention that but deleted. Didn't want to hear otherwise from the guys that actually have 5 finger hubs. But from a purely mechanical point of view, that would be the case if the adjusting nuts only allow 1/2 turn between lock dents. If you had a pressure plate that didn't have the detents, and use those "aero" type lock nut with the plastic friction lock, I suppose you could dial all 5 in to be pretty even. But I'm still thinking that if you use a very stiff (i.e. aluminum) pressure plate, what does the 5 finger hub bring to the party? 3 & 5 hubs both have 10 fingers taking the engine torque.

Just asking!

-JW

The only benefit I could ever see on a 5 nut hub is you now have 5 studs secured on the outer end of the hub that might maybe possibly help keep it from twisting maybe. But if your at that point with your power level it's time for an upgrade to a Rivera pro or some other aftermarket clutch.  Just my 2 cents
Crock

david lee

next time im at the mech im going to ask him,the reason i replaced the hud is that someone had cross threaded the studs

carioux2008

Quote from: guppymech on March 15, 2019, 03:28:57 PM
I betcha that on the 5 studs at least one nut is always loose.  3 stud is like a 3 legged stool, always planted.  Use whatever you like.

I've got a 5-finger hub, and ill admit one of the nuts is partially loose, but still retained by the raised portion on the plate. I've heard of some guys cutting another groove in the nut to get it tighter, though I don't see the real purpose. The only improvement I can see that the 5-finger hub provides is limiting the amount of flex the plate can have, which I would imagine is amplified when using heavy duty springs.

Mule

 Used be called Talon , The best upgrade you can get for an old shovel clutch without breaking the bank   https://www.jpcycles.com/product/630-407/sifton-diaphragm-clutch-conversion-kit

remington007

I went with the York Clutch that Lowbrow Customs sells, best thing i ever did to my Shovel. Yes i know its a import copy of a Pro Clutch. (They were perpetually back ordered at the time i needed a new clutch). It comes with a very stiff spring, i substituted a pre 1998 EVO stock spring to lighten the pull.

Julio

Quote from: Mule on March 18, 2019, 11:44:53 AM
Used be called Talon , The best upgrade you can get for an old shovel clutch without breaking the bank   https://www.jpcycles.com/product/630-407/sifton-diaphragm-clutch-conversion-kit

:agree:

76shuvlinoff

I put a Rivera Pro behind a 93" mill, do they even make those clutches anymore? Anyhow, I haven't touched it in over 30K miles.
Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place, then come down and shoot the survivors.
 - Ernest Hemingway

Hillside Motorcycle

Those Rivera Pro Clutch units makes folks wonder why they waited so long to install one.
Otto Knowbetter sez, "Even a fish wouldn't get caught if he kept his mouth shut"

billbuilds

Quote from: Hillside Motorcycle on March 19, 2019, 02:56:39 AM
Those Rivera Pro Clutch units makes folks wonder why they waited so long to install one.

    :agree:

     Looks like the Pro Clutch is alive under a new name. Parts too. https://americanprimemfginc.com/product/comp-master-clutch-kit/

JW113

"Gone are the days of clutch slippage, creeping and hard to get into neutral frustration! "


I guess I must be the luckiest guy on the planet. My shovel clutch doesn't have any of that. I sure hate to throw money at fixing something that isn't broken, so will stay with the stock clutch for now.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

rkrcpa

Quote from: JW113 on March 19, 2019, 08:19:13 AM
"Gone are the days of clutch slippage, creeping and hard to get into neutral frustration! "


I guess I must be the luckiest guy on the planet. My shovel clutch doesn't have any of that. I sure hate to throw money at fixing something that isn't broken, so will stay with the stock clutch for now.

-JW

This is why I asked my original question. After all these years I've never had an issue with the stock clutch, just wondering if the grass is greener.

JW113

Pure speculation on my part here, so forgive the non-authoritative response. I think for bone stock or slightly warmed over applications (Stage 1?), the stock clutch does OK. Especially if you do the simple mods like Ramjet retainer and aluminum pressure plate. If you go down the path of increasing the power of the motor, the stock clutch probably starts becoming marginal at best. To hold the increased torque, you need heavier clutch springs or crank down on the stock ones. And that brings with it distortion to the sheet metal pressure plate, making it harder to release without dragging. Hence, harder to find neutral and creeps at a stop with clutch pulled. Don't get me wrong, I think those diaphragm type clutches are great. I just can't find any urgent reason to get one with my stock 74" motor.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

76shuvlinoff

When my mill was 74 inches I could put up with the factory clutch. It had slight issues I couldn't seem to conquer and there's no argument,  maybe I just didn't "get it".   When I went to a 93 inch mill I still had those issues, creep, banging into 1st, neutral was not bad if you toed it in while coming to a stop... but then it slipped too. I added heavy springs. Neutral was a bitch unless you killed the motor, clutch pull got tough, still slipped like hell. Along the way I did ram jet retainers, 5 stud hub, 52 bearing kit blah blah.

With mounting frustration I bought the Rivera, back then I think I spent $380ish for it. At first it was grabby, boy was I pissed. By the time I hit 300 miles it was a thing of beauty.  I then kicked myself in the ass for a long time for not going there first. Don't get me wrong, the bike still has her quirks, but I'll never go back to the stock clutch behind the current motor.

  YMMV.
Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place, then come down and shoot the survivors.
 - Ernest Hemingway

cbumdumb

The bike I got running for client the clutch basket and hub were badly grooved and had mis matched parts old club bike so kind explained many of the issues neutral was fun to find unless rolling and creep through stop rampant.

I put a primo in it and my life and customer became a joy , easier clutch pull neutral any time any where no slip or creep.

Hossamania

Quote from: 76shuvlinoff on March 19, 2019, 02:12:11 PM
When my mill was 74 inches I could put up with the factory clutch. It had slight issues I couldn't seem to conquer and there's no argument,  maybe I just didn't "get it".   When I went to a 93 inch mill I still had those issues, creep, banging into 1st, neutral was not bad if you toed it in while coming to a stop... but then it slipped too. I added heavy springs. Neutral was a bitch unless you killed the motor, clutch pull got tough, still slipped like hell. Along the way I did ram jet retainers, 5 stud hub, 52 bearing kit blah blah.

With mounting frustration I bought the Rivera, back then I think I spent $380ish for it. At first it was grabby, boy was I pissed. By the time I hit 300 miles it was a thing of beauty.  I then kicked myself in the ass for a long time for not going there first. Don't get me wrong, the bike still has her quirks, but I'll never go back to the stock clutch behind the current motor.

  YMMV.

Shuv, your observation about the grabbiness reminded me of a friend's dad who put a clutch in an old 60's Ford, then promptly drove it to a tree, put the front bumper against it, and slipped the clutch a couple times to bed it in. I thought he was nuts at the time, but he had it right. Helps with that early on grab.
I ended up using that trick over the years when replacing clutches.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

76shuvlinoff

Quote from: Hossamania on March 19, 2019, 02:57:57 PM
Quote from: 76shuvlinoff on March 19, 2019, 02:12:11 PM
When my mill was 74 inches I could put up with the factory clutch. It had slight issues I couldn't seem to conquer and there's no argument,  maybe I just didn't "get it".   When I went to a 93 inch mill I still had those issues, creep, banging into 1st, neutral was not bad if you toed it in while coming to a stop... but then it slipped too. I added heavy springs. Neutral was a bitch unless you killed the motor, clutch pull got tough, still slipped like hell. Along the way I did ram jet retainers, 5 stud hub, 52 bearing kit blah blah.

With mounting frustration I bought the Rivera, back then I think I spent $380ish for it. At first it was grabby, boy was I pissed. By the time I hit 300 miles it was a thing of beauty.  I then kicked myself in the ass for a long time for not going there first. Don't get me wrong, the bike still has her quirks, but I'll never go back to the stock clutch behind the current motor.

  YMMV.

Shuv, your observation about the grabbiness reminded me of a friend's dad who put a clutch in an old 60's Ford, then promptly drove it to a tree, put the front bumper against it, and slipped the clutch a couple times to bed it in. I thought he was nuts at the time, but he had it right. Helps with that early on grab.
I ended up using that trick over the years when replacing clutches.

I remember my older brother's 65 Mustang. The clutch started to slip so he took it to the local mechanic. The old boy said it was just glazed so he put it up against a tree just like you described and promptly burned the clutch the rest of the way out.....  so my brother paid him to put a new one in.  :teeth:   
Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place, then come down and shoot the survivors.
 - Ernest Hemingway

friday

you can buy replacement studs so it can be 3 or 5 stud and replace the friction disc too.
the holes in the plates can be drilled to a larger size and deburred to slide good on the studs.


72fl

Quote from: 76shuvlinoff on March 19, 2019, 02:12:11 PM
When my mill was 74 inches I could put up with the factory clutch. It had slight issues I couldn't seem to conquer and there's no argument,  maybe I just didn't "get it".   When I went to a 93 inch mill I still had those issues, creep, banging into 1st, neutral was not bad if you toed it in while coming to a stop... but then it slipped too. I added heavy springs. Neutral was a bitch unless you killed the motor, clutch pull got tough, still slipped like hell. Along the way I did ram jet retainers, 5 stud hub, 52 bearing kit blah blah.

With mounting frustration I bought the Rivera, back then I think I spent $380ish for it. At first it was grabby, boy was I pissed. By the time I hit 300 miles it was a thing of beauty.  I then kicked myself in the ass for a long time for not going there first. Don't get me wrong, the bike still has her quirks, but I'll never go back to the stock clutch behind the current motor.

  YMMV.

I did all the things Mark did, and I took his advice and installed a Rivera Pro in my 72. I had fought and fought and tried all the aftermarket fixes, but every season 2-4 times I would have to take clutch apart clean it and deglaze the plates, I even tried new plates but same old crap. The Rivera after installing it was getting into neutral at any time was like butter(smooth) The first ride with it, it was so smooth that I thought it was slipping, so I grabbed and handful of throttle and dumped the clutch and it wasn't slipping we left a nice black mark on the garage floor. As far as getting one now, there is a long time employee that started his own business, his name is Ben Kudon, he worked at Rivera for over 40 years and his company is American Prime Manufacturing : https://americanprimemfginc.com/

drifter

March 23, 2019, 09:08:58 AM #25 Last Edit: March 23, 2019, 10:48:28 AM by drifter
This new stuff is out of my price range, but I got curious and looked around.  The clutches for 1936 through 1984 (1056 0002) cost $571. plus shipping(?)  from American Prime or $513. plus shipping from Amazon, same clutch sold and shipped by American Prime.  I didn't check the price of the newer clutches but they are available on Amazon if you are shopping around and want to compare pricing.  The stock style Barnett clutch behind my 88 inch Pan works for me.  Like JW113 I also use an aluminum pressure plate and used to use a Ramjet, but back when I was letting mechanics work on the bike one of them replaced it with a Zodiac Tamer, a fancier (read expensive) version that does the same thing.

david lee

my hd mech, a shovel expert told me years ago getting neutral you have to be rolling.thats how they are

rkrcpa

Quote from: david lee on March 23, 2019, 06:10:18 PM
my hd mech, a shovel expert told me years ago getting neutral you have to be rolling.thats how they are

I bought my first Shovel in 1980, I've never had trouble finding neutral. It's always been right where I left it, between first and second gear. Maybe I've just been lucky all these years?

Ohio HD

Quote from: rkrcpa on March 24, 2019, 08:14:54 AM
Quote from: david lee on March 23, 2019, 06:10:18 PM
my hd mech, a shovel expert told me years ago getting neutral you have to be rolling.thats how they are

I bought my first Shovel in 1980, I've never had trouble finding neutral. It's always been right where I left it, between first and second gear. Maybe I've just been lucky all these years?

Agree, if the chain is adjusted correctly, the clutch adjusted correctly, and the sprocket to basket alignment is good, or even motor sprocket a little towards the motor, neutral was always there when stopped.

Burnout

March 24, 2019, 08:47:36 AM #29 Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 08:53:13 AM by Burnout
When I set up a 4 speed clutch I take a lot of time to make sure the pressure plate releases flat.
You don't just set the height of the pressure plate and button it up.
I pull the clutch lever and make sure the plate lifts off the clutch pack evenly.
Pull the lever and spin the pressure plate to see if it wobbles, keep adjusting until it releases flat.
If the pressure plate tips the clutch will drag and make finding neutral difficult, this will also make it bang into gear worse.
If you end up with a drastic tilt on the spring retainer juggle the springs to even out the weak & strong springs so the plate releases flat without tipping the retainer a lot.
I also like the aluminum pressure plate as it does not warp with high spring pressure like the tin one.
DO NOT over tighten the spring retainer, make sure the springs do not collapse completely (coil bind) as that will warp the pressure plate

Lever pull is limited and anything that reduces lever pull is bad
Other things that can cause problems are.
Thick grips or wraps on grips (reduces lever travel)
Worn out lever or saddle (reduces lever travel)
Leather wraps on the levers (reduces lever travel)
Any kind of damage to the clutch cable or lack of lube.

Always adjust the clutch cable with the bars straight ahead, turning the bars will change the adjustment.
The good clutch cables have longitudinally wound housings, they are stiffer but loose less travel. NO TIGHT BENDS and don't tie/clamp the cable down in more than one place. If you have drag bars route the cable around the other side of the frame so there is not a tight bend down from the bars. DO NOT try to use a cable that is too short either, a bend right at the lever will guarantee broken wires on the inner cable and cause drag. Also there are cables that have no liner, the cables with no liner are not worth a single penny.
Both Barnett and Motion Pro will custom build cables, call them and they will send you drawings to confirm the design and lengths. Note they do hoses too.

Don't use heavy oil in the primary, I seal the primary (disconnect it from the motor oiling system) and use ATF in the primary. Heavy oil will cause drag especially when cold.
DO NOT adjust the primary chain on the tight side, better a little loose. Check it hot if you are in doubt.
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

crock

Quote from: Burnout on March 24, 2019, 08:47:36 AM
When I set up a 4 speed clutch I take a lot of time to make sure the pressure plate releases flat.
You don't just set the height of the pressure plate and button it up.
I pull the clutch lever and make sure the plate lifts off the clutch pack evenly.
Pull the lever and spin the pressure plate to see if it wobbles, keep adjusting until it releases flat.
If the pressure plate tips the clutch will drag and make finding neutral difficult, this will also make it bang into gear worse.
If you end up with a drastic tilt on the spring retainer juggle the springs to even out the weak & strong springs so the plate releases flat without tipping the retainer a lot.
I also like the aluminum pressure plate as it does not warp with high spring pressure like the tin one.
DO NOT over tighten the spring retainer, make sure the springs do not collapse completely (coil bind) as that will warp the pressure plate

Lever pull is limited and anything that reduces lever pull is bad
Other things that can cause problems are.
Thick grips or wraps on grips (reduces lever travel)
Worn out lever or saddle (reduces lever travel)
Leather wraps on the levers (reduces lever travel)
Any kind of damage to the clutch cable or lack of lube.

Always adjust the clutch cable with the bars straight ahead, turning the bars will change the adjustment.
The good clutch cables have longitudinally wound housings, they are stiffer but loose less travel. NO TIGHT BENDS and don't tie/clamp the cable down in more than one place. If you have drag bars route the cable around the other side of the frame so there is not a tight bend down from the bars. DO NOT try to use a cable that is too short either, a bend right at the lever will guarantee broken wires on the inner cable and cause drag. Also there are cables that have no liner, the cables with no liner are not worth a single penny.
Both Barnett and Motion Pro will custom build cables, call them and they will send you drawings to confirm the design and lengths. Note they do hoses too.

Don't use heavy oil in the primary, I seal the primary (disconnect it from the motor oiling system) and use ATF in the primary. Heavy oil will cause drag especially when cold.
DO NOT adjust the primary chain on the tight side, better a little loose. Check it hot if you are in doubt.

:agree: 110%
Sounds like you covered it very well, Thanks Burnout
Crock

KatalogKarl

 :agree: As my experience with both 3 and 5 studded hubs. Both 4-5-6  speed trannies. 3 is fine when mild and can take some hard uses. But I as well had bending and twisting on all parts due to me not being so kind to scoot. Went to 5 stud and all attachments known to man to improve reliability and working use, but not until Rivera products did it all come together. On another shovel still using a 5 studded hub And I Do launch this bike from rolling or even dead starts I have hard springs (orange) and aluminum pressure plate making sure all is centered on basket. The biggest improvement with this set up was Primo R's extra plate kit and in my closed primary  :teeth: Transmission Fluid Yes (J.W113). Correct cable adjustment and no binding in cable helps. One scoot that has Rivera kit it is as stated here "LIKE BUTTER". FXR has 5 stud unit and finding neutral is no problem. Have had a situation when I used a regular fluid in transmission (60w motor oil) but it did not shift up and down smoothly enough. Then got onboard with newer age fluids. A object (clutch hub) spinning on a shaft and all might not be perfect or correct can cause issues. Rivera product tho pricey hands down works. Have seen many shovels with this problem and what owners have and will do is boggling. Mild Bike 3-5 finger is fine. If heartier power spend the money. Just my 2 cents..       

One4Tone

June 28, 2019, 03:23:15 AM #32 Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 03:32:07 AM by One4Tone
...For some reason shovel clutches tend to slip in 4th under wide open throttle especially the heavier bikes. I found the Barnett springs (red in colour) really help to cure  the problem. 5 finger hubs ...should be better than 3 , however for a stock bike it doesn't really matter. Sand blasting the steel plates, deglazing the disks will work. Using auto tranny fluid in the primary however not over filling it is key. It is there mostly for the chain...and if you have a wet clutch vs. dry . ..I would start with 6 to 8 ounces of (ATF)  tranny fluid and take it from there....Above all adjustment is key...start at the hub and work your way to the cable and finally the handlebar lever. You should have a tiny bit of free play. Use a manual if not sure.

RTMike

Replace it with a Bandit or Rivera pro clutch,this will fix the clutch problem forever

david lee

my question is can you get different tension springs to make lever pull easier thanks

crock

Quote from: david lee on July 30, 2019, 03:21:28 PM
my question is can you get different tension springs to make lever pull easier thanks

You can but you ill sacrifice hold. Red springs with an aluminum release plate seem to be a happy medium
Crock

One4Tone

..like JW said...springs are vital. get a new hub...3 or 5 with good fingers. Might want to look into throw out bearing on the tranny (right side). I like the early model (shaped like bell)..There might be specific push rod length  between early and late throw out bearing.. I have had good luck with Barnett clutch plates and springs. On a kicker bike an poorly adjusted clutch wont give you a good rotation of the crank makin it harder to kickstart the bike. The stronger your motor the more demand on the clutch. Good luck with your project.