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117" Renew

Started by Ohio HD, February 25, 2018, 05:42:36 PM

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Ohio HD

Pete ran the numbers over to engineering, so I guess that was Adam. Based on how the bike will be used they suggested 10.75:1 as a good static number to use. I know that they've run their 110 kits with about 195ccp, and all is well. I then made changes and sent the last chart to Pete, he said what I listed, checked with their calculations, and said it was fine.

No Cents

  I just thought I would mention it.
His complaint was they were very twitchy at slow speeds at the compression he was running. Zipper's told him he would be fine too. The bike was tuned by Jim Kennedy both times.
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Ohio HD

Well, we'll see I guess. Won't be the first time I changed to another cam afterwards. One way to find out. 

Ohio HD

Do you know how to render a $100 Jim's crank run out gauge useless? Install studs in your case for the cam plate.    :doh:

No big deal, just rigged a test gauge to check the pinion run out. Not what I wanted to see, there's 0.003" run out right at 180° rotation of the crank. So I need to talk to John @ DH and see what the most economical solution will be. This crank has their H-beam rods, and I'd hate to buy them again as I'm sure they can be reused, hopefully. The motor has about 40k miles. Just don't want to start out with 0.003" and it get worse later.


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tmwmoose

I went through a very expensive crank learning experience back with my ole 107 .Lots of cranks by different folks they ALL would spread , usually to about .004" and no more. My point here is at .0035" @ 40k I believe the crank has settled and probably wont move anymore unless a heck of a lot more power and abuse is coming its way. Just an opinion :soda:

Ohio HD

Mark, I tend to think you're right, and your opinion is always welcome. But this is a gear drive motor, so I think addressing it is best. I can't speak for the original measure, as I bought this motor used a few years ago. This is stock HD wheels and shafts with DH H-beam rods.  As far as how it'll get used, probably an easier life than it had in my other bike. But I anticipate a lot more torque under the curve when it goes back together.

Ohio HD

I have to buy pistons anyway. If I "do" buy a complete crank, then all I need to buy after that is taller 4.125" cylinders, and it's a 124", and I then have two bikes with 124" motors.

Someone stop me please!    :hyst:


1workinman

Quote from: Ohio HD on July 01, 2018, 03:21:44 PM
Well, you have to consider that a stock 110 rings the bell higher than 200ccp, so compression alone isn't the issue. Get the piston to head squish to 0.033" to 0.037" for a street motor, or tighter if you want. My friend Robin gave me that advice for the 0.033" to 0.037" squish, and I trust what he has to say. As far as the rest, a competent tuner that knows what you want, and how you ride. My 124 is 191 ish ccp, but when warm the motor measures, 200 ish ccp hcp. It doesn't ping unless you over load the motor in the gear your in. This weekend, 93° F and 100° F heat index. No problems riding the 124.
I have given some thought to this a few time , for instance the stock Harley engines with the 255 camshaft have a lot more compression than 200 or I though so.  So what is the difference between 215 or 210 ccp with a 640 SS and a 255 camshaft all things being equal . I do think that keeping the  rpms up helps a lot as I was under the impression that detonation was is dependent on time. That keeping the quench like you suggested is good. One little thing that I have seen is a good oil cooler and the head fans also seem to help keep the engine temps , that and a good tune . My bike is generally used to ride 2 up and I want it to perform well and not ping so I use good fuel ,

Ohio HD

Quote from: 1workinman on July 04, 2018, 04:30:44 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 01, 2018, 03:21:44 PM
Well, you have to consider that a stock 110 rings the bell higher than 200ccp, so compression alone isn't the issue. Get the piston to head squish to 0.033" to 0.037" for a street motor, or tighter if you want. My friend Robin gave me that advice for the 0.033" to 0.037" squish, and I trust what he has to say. As far as the rest, a competent tuner that knows what you want, and how you ride. My 124 is 191 ish ccp, but when warm the motor measures, 200 ish ccp hcp. It doesn't ping unless you over load the motor in the gear your in. This weekend, 93° F and 100° F heat index. No problems riding the 124.
I have given some thought to this a few time , for instance the stock Harley engines with the 255 camshaft have a lot more compression than 200 or I though so.  So what is the difference between 215 or 210 ccp with a 640 SS and a 255 camshaft all things being equal . I do think that keeping the  rpms up helps a lot as I was under the impression that detonation was is dependent on time. That keeping the quench like you suggested is good. One little thing that I have seen is a good oil cooler and the head fans also seem to help keep the engine temps , that and a good tune . My bike is generally used to ride 2 up and I want it to perform well and not ping so I use good fuel ,
Bikes from the factory don't have performance optimized tuning, and they get by with a little more compression in the 110 case. When you start adding timing to make power, it's a balance to get power but not detonate, and adding fuel where needed. The factory also tunes the motor as if it'll be lugged, as it probably will be by a lot of riders. Generally speaking any motor I have ever owned that had higher compression, more cubic inches, etc., you needed to ride them differently.

This compare front cylinder timing table from my '09 bike shows the amount of timing pulled for the stock motor, and the dyno tuned motor from Roeder Racing. Both 96 inch stock compression. The tuned version can be detonated if you lug it.


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rageglide

July 04, 2018, 06:33:06 PM #59 Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 06:38:16 PM by rageglide
I put 25k on an early twin cam stock crank with .0035 runout With gears.  Right at the limit.  It whined a little initially and at 30k it was .0085"...and whine was less.  I removed the gears and cams and went back to stock before I traded the bike.  Ran pretty damned good at 95" with stock cams.

The 2012 I traded the '05 on had .0065" out of the gate...  Didn't change much from new to when I decided bigger shift was imminent and I'd had enough of stockish power.

I guess my point is, .003" on a DH crank with that many miles, probably not going to shift that much to worry about it in the next 30k.   Maybe Ray knows what runout was when it was built.   I really think we obsess over this - just a weeee bit.

Ohio HD

Yeah I agree, we tend to zero in on this, and obsess a little. I guess I could always go back to chain drive cams too. I need to see what the test of the crank is like. I have to look at the drive side run out, and the condition of the rods, side play etc. before deciding the route. I also want to get Johns opinion on it.



rageglide

Oh yeah definitely agree you need to check it all out.   My drive side was significant as i recall on my '12, but cant remember off hand...

If you have the gears, I think you'll be just fine.  You did say this is going to be your lazy motor.   :hyst: :hyst:  BTDT!

Ohio HD

We have air channelers! 

As the last set, really nice work by Larry. 


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Ohio HD

I took a peak at the drive side sprocket, I like it when it's clear what to do. Dark Horse here I come. I will also say that this motor has had the snot run out of it by me. Many 6,500 rpm shifts, prolonged high RPM running, and just a lot of blasting through the gears. So I have no issues with what I see. If a guy rode this like a sane man, I doubt it would have ever moved, or much at all. As it was the motor has been smooth all along, no noise from the gear drive, etc. As well this is the outer most parts of the shafts, at the bearing surfaces it's probably still pretty tight.


0° = 0.000"
90° = 0.003"
180° = 0.001"
270° = 0.002"
Because it's not easy to find the high and low spots on the splines by rotating the motor. I mark a spot, call it 0°, zero the indicator, then check at 90° intervals. The worst case is at 90° to 270°, showing 0.005" run out.

0° rotation
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90° rotation
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Ohio HD

180° rotation
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270° rotation
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Ohio HD

I'll also add this, we really don't know that the tops of the splines are a super tight tolerance from one to the next. We can see it's not a smooth machining, and it's purpose is not important that they are to be exact. If it were like 0.010" swing or higher, then we probably can be sure it's moved a lot.


So in the end,    :idunno:

kd

So total run-out deflection using those data points is Just over .005.  Did you notice the needle go outside the +.003 or the -.002 as you were rotating the shaft?  I have found that there is usually some brg play that seems to show up causing enough deviation to make the target points be not repeatable with high accuracy, but they are close enough to give an average.
KD

Ohio HD

I really didn't pay too much attention to the in between readings, but nothing seemed to jump excessively. These numbers were repeatable with three rotations of the crank. I didn't try to find a high or low spot to start by. You always will find any deflection at 90° intervals. If there were none, or less than this, I would have moved the start point to 45° and started again. In the end these are stock flywheels that DH rebuilt. So I think it's done well based on how they were used. And I don't know where they were at the beginning, I'm sure John does.

I already had it in my head that this would probably get addressed. It's the only part that's not new. New heads, new pistons, new cams, and lifters, oil pump yet to be determined as I haven't look at it yet. No point in short changing it now. Might just go with an S&S for non stock pistons, we'll see. Also I need to see if DH will custom balance a stock S&S crank. 

Barrett

Are you changing the stroke now?

Ohio HD

No, I'll keep it 4-3/8". From what I've learned with my 124" and this 117", although the 124" is smooth, the 117" is smoother. This bike is going to remain what it is today, just a decent daily rider.

1workinman

Quote from: Ohio HD on July 05, 2018, 02:50:26 PM
I really didn't pay too much attention to the in between readings, but nothing seemed to jump excessively. These numbers were repeatable with three rotations of the crank. I didn't try to find a high or low spot to start by. You always will find any deflection at 90° intervals. If there were none, or less than this, I would have moved the start point to 45° and started again. In the end these are stock flywheels that DH rebuilt. So I think it's done well based on how they were used. And I don't know where they were at the beginning, I'm sure John does.

I already had it in my head that this would probably get addressed. It's the only part that's not new. New heads, new pistons, new cams, and lifters, oil pump yet to be determined as I haven't look at it yet. No point in short changing it now. Might just go with an S&S for non stock pistons, we'll see. Also I need to see if DH will custom balance a stock S&S crank.
I doubt I run my engine any harder but I damn sure don't baby it , My bottom end is stock SS . I be interested in hearing what dark horse has to say about the crank shaft. So if you have to get another crank are you going the 124 . So what does Dark horse recommend for guys what like to run there engine. I not been accused of lugging it yet lol  .

Ohio HD

Quote from: 1workinman on July 05, 2018, 04:31:43 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 05, 2018, 02:50:26 PM
I really didn't pay too much attention to the in between readings, but nothing seemed to jump excessively. These numbers were repeatable with three rotations of the crank. I didn't try to find a high or low spot to start by. You always will find any deflection at 90° intervals. If there were none, or less than this, I would have moved the start point to 45° and started again. In the end these are stock flywheels that DH rebuilt. So I think it's done well based on how they were used. And I don't know where they were at the beginning, I'm sure John does.

I already had it in my head that this would probably get addressed. It's the only part that's not new. New heads, new pistons, new cams, and lifters, oil pump yet to be determined as I haven't look at it yet. No point in short changing it now. Might just go with an S&S for non stock pistons, we'll see. Also I need to see if DH will custom balance a stock S&S crank.
I doubt I run my engine any harder but I damn sure don't baby it , My bottom end is stock SS . I be interested in hearing what dark horse has to say about the crank shaft. So if you have to get another crank are you going the 124 . So what does Dark horse recommend for guys what like to run there engine. I not been accused of lugging it yet lol  .

First of all, I want everyone to understand that I am in no way saying that this crank has failed, is inferior, or hasn't held up as it should. I can't remember too many guys that have run a motor hard, and accumulated miles on it, then gave readings on the crank, unless it was a severely failed crank.


My only conversation with John will be, what path do you recommend we go?

Had I not opened this motor, I would have probably ridden it another 40k miles. It only came open because it's being repurposed in a different bike, and will be used differently now. And I see no point in going forward with a 1/2 of a rebuilt motor.

I have no doubt I can destroy any motor part made if I tried. Crankshafts are no exception. I just want to be clear that I am not unhappy with how the crank has held up. It will remain a 117", I have a 124 in another bike.

No Cents

  Brian...wrap a piece of masking tape around the splines....just don't over lap the ends. It makes it easier to get a good reading on the primary side.
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Ohio HD

That's a good idea Ray, maybe I can find a low spot, and then see how the reading comes out. I still think at minimum as a friend suggested to me, I'll send this in to have it rebuilt fresh. Otherwise when I have 40k on the new top end and cams, the lower end will have 80k, an will no doubt need looked at again. All of the expensive work is done already, the Timken conversion and cases bored.

No Cents

  As you probably know I have been following this kind of close. I would be interested to hear what John has to say about what you have found. I think I have the final crank run out figures that John provided. I'll send them to you if I can find them if you want them.
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae