shimmming rockers for end play

[NCHeritage07]

So, I have opened up my rocker boxes with intentions of installing locker inserts and checking the end play.  Hoping to find the end play on the low end of the spec.  Instead, I found very little evidence of rocker support shaft movement but what seems like way to much end play.  Found 2 at 014" and the other two at 016".  I am still going to install the locker inserts because I can't see a down-side to them.  But:

Question 1:  Would you simply install 010" an 012" shims and run with it?  I have heard that 010" is an absolute minimum.   Q1.2: If they should be machined, is there a commonly available tool so a DIYer without a machine shop can cut and make room for a more substantial shim?

Q2:  I had been warned that I should check my pushrod adjustment if they are adjustable.  I assumed they were stock.  Are stock pushrods totally straight with no hex at all?  I pulled one of mine and its not a simple pushrod like I was expecting. 

The goal is to get this thing to sound less like an old tractor.  I have been able to confirm that most of my noise is coming from the rockerboxes with a little more from the compensator.  I installed the lastest generation SE comp but I think it needs the shim that I have heard of.  But it stopped sounding like a con-rod was breaking at each startup after installing.

So, I will be installing the lockout inserts, shimming the rocker endplay then I will look into adjusting the pushrods.

I have read lots of posts were people say that its a Harley and its supposed to make noises.  Based on the build of this rocker housing its easy to see how it may be built to rattle.  But I hate to hear it.  I sometimes ride with a bluetooth headset that have sound deadening(not active cancelling) earbuds.  With those in I can only hear the exhaust and I like that much better.  I get the same effect when descending the mountain and my ears need to but have not adjusted.

[rbabos]

Personally, I don't think reducing the end play makes much difference. By design (push rod angles) the rockers are forced to one side and remain there. Take a look at the witness marks from the rocker end to the bosses. I tried them as low as .003 end play but it sounded the same, as it should due to the above explanation.  Locking the rocker shafts is a good idea and worth it.
Ron

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Practically all reports of shimming rocker end play say it does no good, including my own experiments. I had them down to almost a sliding fit & no change.  The tiny percentage that say it helped any were probably incidental.... IOW something else shifted, moved, etc. during the process. As mentioned, there just isn't enough room there to make noise, thus the large tolerance from the MOCO. Your tapping time & money is better spent elsewhere 

[NCHeritage07]

Thanks for the input.

Ok, the witness marks do make it seem that the rocker has never contacted the non-loaded side.  That along with the fact that Rockout products, who has an interest in seeing my noise go away, recommends skipping the shim will save me some trouble.

But while inspecting the wear marks on the rocker plate I see two other potential causes for concern:
First, on the side of the housing that doesn't get the insert the opening for the support rod is larger and looser.  This may be a non-issue for the same reason as the end play but it seems that both sides would/should offer some resistance.  I can also detect some movement of the support shaft in the housing on the loose end.  I don't think I could measure it without some type of jig and if I were to guess, I would say its a few thousands.
Second, the wear on the housing is only evident on the bottom half of the circle.  Maybe this only proves that the wear is minimal and/or these have been replaced before.  At almost 37K miles I would expect to see contact all the way around.

I am supposed to have some parts arriving for my paying job.  If they don't show then I will be putting this thing back together tomorrow.  If the noise level isn't down then a pushrod adjustment may be next.

[Don D]

Dont get too carried away with this, agreed it makes little difference but for the OCD types if a little less is good a little more is better, dont do it. > or = to .004

[moose]

also check the upper end of the pushrod make sure its not rubbing  you will see marks on the pr if it is
and make sure the rockers are not hitting the web on the covers  not sure what your lift is but it's worth a check while open
also remember if you are checking the rockers you will have more clearance when they are cold

[NCHeritage07]

Ok, its back together and I have allowed everything to settle/bleed down.  I have rotated the rear wheel to spin the engine a few rotations and nothing strange happens.

If it will do any good, I want to leave the plugs out and crank it to get the oil back to the rockers.  Everything is oiled but the void between the rockers and the support rods seemed to be full of oil when I took it apart.  So, Is there any need to pump the oil up before letting it have fire?  How long should that take, just a general idea, I am sure that battery health has some bearing on the required time.  And is there any electrical reason to NOT crank it with the wires off the plugs? 

I know that last one seems like a weird question but I used to ride SeaDoos and people claimed that cranking with the plug wires off could cause damage to the ignition.  I always suspected that the ignition damage could only be caused by a rogue spark igniting fuel vapors that may be lingering inside the hull and causing an explosion.  But, just to be safe, I always grounded my plug wires.  SeaDoo's electronics were pretty delicate anyway so I did it by the book.

[Chippitt68]

I pull the fuel pump fuse.

[rbabos]

I pull the fuel pump fuse.

Me too with EFI. The fuel will wash the oil off the cylinders otherwise. Other option is only crank with wide open throttle, which is clear flood mode so no fuel is delivered.
Ron

[Hossamania]

And ground the plug wires. It might not damage the ignition cranking without it, but why take the chance?

[rbabos]

And ground the plug wires. It might not damage the ignition cranking without it, but why take the chance?

Good all around practice to use. In the case of the delphi, it won't trigger the coils to fire unless it sees crank slowing, which there is none with the plugs removed.
Ron

[itsafatboy]

Wondering what cams you are running in the bike? I also tried the shimming and all the other things to quite top end noise coming from front exhaust side mostly, but it was woods cams nothing helped until I changed cams, but I really liked the TW8G cams but man they were loud,

[NCHeritage07]

Until I opened it up and found adjustable pushrods, I would have bet that this thing was 100% stock.  With that as a disclaimer, I am still assuming that the cams are stock.  I am likely going to check the adjustment of these pushrod before I put this thing back on the road.  I may try measuring the lift while doing that.  It'll be a rough measurement at best, I hope to NOT totally remove the pushrods.  I meant to measure while the rockers were off but that step slipped my mind.

It is alive again at least.  Even if its just idling still on the lift.  It seems to idle a little higher than before but that could be because I haven't let it run very long (enclosed garage and not warm or bright enough to move it outside).  Tomorrow is supposed to be warm...

[1FSTRK]

Until I opened it up and found adjustable pushrods, I would have bet that this thing was 100% stock.  With that as a disclaimer, I am still assuming that the cams are stock.  I am likely going to check the adjustment of these pushrod before I put this thing back on the road.  I may try measuring the lift while doing that.  It'll be a rough measurement at best, I hope to NOT totally remove the pushrods.  I meant to measure while the rockers were off but that step slipped my mind.

It is alive again at least.  Even if its just idling still on the lift.  It seems to idle a little higher than before but that could be because I haven't let it run very long (enclosed garage and not warm or bright enough to move it outside).  Tomorrow is supposed to be warm...

If you thought it was stock and found adjustable pushrods inside it may have had cams installed, OR maybe the last guy had valve noise in the stock engine and tried to fix it with adjustable pushrods.

[NCHeritage07]

This is at least a 3 owner bike including me.  The previous owner bought it with V&H duals and a Powercommander 3.  He removed both and installed a set of stock pipes.  I powered up the PC3 and at least in the PC profile there was nothing regarding cams, just pipes and intake.  That still doesn't prove that the cams are stock, just a little more evidence.

When I pulled the pushrod and saw that it was adjustable, I feared that I would also see the rocker inserts already installed,, they were not.

BTW, FWIW, I have a very quiet top end while idling cold.  But I'm not claiming victory until its had a good heat-soak.

I also need to say that I am happy to be a subscriber of this forum, very responsive and helpful.

[Chippitt68]

You should consider becoming a site supporter.

[NCHeritage07]

You should consider becoming a site supporter.

I may do that.  Would be a first for me.

I finally went for a short ride yesterday and not all my top-end noise is gone.  But the worst of it is gone.  I decided to skip the adjustment of the PRs just so I would know how much difference the Rockouts made.  I am satisfied that the Rockouts did their job but there are other sources of noise.

Now the most prominent noise is a rattle from the compensator at low and loaded RPM.  That's a topic for another post and may be looked into in late Feb/early March.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

I finally went for a short ride yesterday and not all my top-end noise is gone.  But the worst of it is gone.  I decided to skip the adjustment of the PRs just so I would know how much difference the Rockouts made.  I am satisfied that the Rockouts did their job but there are other sources of noise.

Now the most prominent noise is a rattle from the compensator at low and loaded RPM.  That's a topic for another post and may be looked into in late Feb/early March.

[timcosby]

my noise from the compensator area like you report was solved with chain adjustment but yours may be self adjusting.