Which rebuild after 110 seizure

[ben31]

I have to rebuild my 110 and I wonder what engine to go for.

Long story made short: 3500mi after my dealer changed cams, tappets, oil pump, pushrods, and one valve because of a bad noise, the rear cylinder seized. He didn't want to repair under warranty and after a long conflict, I had to get back my bike, after paying disassembly and a lot of caretaking costs...

So the rear piston scored badly, piston skirt is damaged, rings are welded, lower end of cylinder is scored and with a thin crack.
As the engine was still running, I believe the crankshaft didn't suffered, and would perfer not to change it...

My plan is, for now, to replace cylinders, pistons and cams.
I could go for another 110 either by SE or an aftermarket provider, but I could take advantage of this situation to begin a cool upgrade, to 113 or 117 (or 124?)

I have seen several possibilities and would like an advice:

- SE 117 kit (92500051): drop in, no modification (case boring)
- S&S 117 (910-0474): .060 shorter cylinder: have to modify TB ?
- Zippers 1117 (520-417S): .045 longer cylinder: have to change TB?
- Revolution performance 117 (DragSpe 0903-0897)
- Suburban Harley solution 4-1/8 SE cylinder + Mahle pistons
- Fuel Moto 113 kit for CVO (FMS-11-X): with cams, lifters, pushrods, bearings!

Of course if I need to change the crankshaft, I could stay with a 4-3/8 (S&S, Darkhorse, SE) or go to a 4-5/8 and build a 124... But is it rational on a Softail Deluxe?

[rigidthumper]

"So the rear piston scored badly, piston skirt is damaged, rings are welded, lower end of cylinder is scored and with a thin crack.
As the engine was still running, I believe the crankshaft didn't suffered, and would perfer not to change it..."

There's no way in hell I'd drop a top end on this without doing a case split & clean, new bearings and addressing the crank. Tiny pieces of the piston/ring/etc are in the oil, so the lower end bearings, as well as the counterbalancer bearings, were probably contaminated. You don't want to do this a third time. What did the dealer say was the cause?

[ben31]

There's no way in hell I'd drop a top end on this without doing a case split & clean, new bearings and addressing the crank. Tiny pieces of the piston/ring/etc are in the oil, so the lower end bearings, as well as the counterbalancer bearings, were probably contaminated. You don't want to do this a third time. What did the dealer say was the cause?

Even if I would prefer avoid opening the lower end, I think you're right... A good cleaning and checking of case seems mandatory.
And if I open arises the question about the crank. Reuse or replace?

The dealer said my tune was the cause, and didn't questionned himself about his first intervention.
My expert didn't agree and technician friend of mine either but we had no weight in front of HD...

[1FSTRK]

There's no way in hell I'd drop a top end on this without doing a case split & clean, new bearings and addressing the crank. Tiny pieces of the piston/ring/etc are in the oil, so the lower end bearings, as well as the counterbalancer bearings, were probably contaminated. You don't want to do this a third time. What did the dealer say was the cause?

Even if I would prefer avoid opening the lower end, I think you're right... A good cleaning and checking of case seems mandatory.
And if I open arises the question about the crank. Reuse or replace?

The dealer said my tune was the cause, and didn't questionned himself about his first intervention.
My expert didn't agree and technician friend of mine either but we had no weight in front of HD...

So what did your expert and technician freind state as the cause?

[ben31]

They supposed it was a lubrification failure...
There were no marks of excessive heat on the piston, no clue of poor or rich mixture...

And there was an initial problem, and a first rebuilt, that could have not treated completly the problem or even generated new issues.

[rigidthumper]

Even if I would prefer avoid opening the lower end, I think you're right... A good cleaning and checking of case seems mandatory.
And if I open arises the question about the crank. Reuse or replace?

If I were going to go 110/113/117, I'd either have DarkHorse Crankworks rebuild the flywheels with better rods, or use an S&S flywheel, depending on how the budget stands. If you're considering a 124,  then S&S.  Either way, please consider having a plan to verify that the tune is correct for the components installed, just in case the dealer isn't completely wrong.   Can you post a picture of the top & underside of the pistons?

[koko3052]

I don't agree with a lubrication failure as that should have affected the front cylinder also. I would lean towards tune.

[ben31]

Can you post a picture of the top & underside of the pistons?

I will take some pictures when I go back home.
Unfortunately, I have cleaned the faulty piston in order to make a nice decoration on my desk, but the marks are still here. The top of the other piston is in the same shape.

Actually, my bike stayed almost one year in the dealer workshop, and I got it back few months ago.
Now I can plan the rebuild as I have a little money for this...

[Hossamania]

I'm just curious, what year bike, is the 110" the original motor or an upgrade, who did the upgrade if it is, how many miles were on it, what kind of tune was used? I'm curious about the history of the motor.
One year in the shop? That just seems unacceptable.

[ben31]

I don't agree with a lubrication failure as that should have affected the front cylinder also. I would lean towards tune.

The front cylinder began to be lightly scored also...

I understand the causes are fundamentals, if I do not want to reproduce the problem...
But hey, my friends, I want to go ahead and stop analyzing the causes. It was a long and painful period and I need to move on.

I will do a rebuild with good came plate, oil pump, tappets, pushrods I already have, and start with a new tune.

So what's the better choice?

[ben31]

I'm just curious, what year bike, is the 110" the original motor or an upgrade, who did the upgrade if it is, how many miles were on it, what kind of tune was used? I'm curious about the history of the motor.
One year in the shop? That just seems unacceptable.

The bike is a CVO Softail Deluxe, FLSTNSE 14.
Few modifications: Rush Performance muffler, tuned with Power Vision and Target Tune.

The one year is because, it took very long time for experts to argue, and me to take a decision, until the dealer send me a letter with menace of lawsuit.

[1FSTRK]

I don't agree with a lubrication failure as that should have affected the front cylinder also. I would lean towards tune.

The front cylinder began to be lightly scored also...

I understand the causes are fundamentals, if I do not want to reproduce the problem...
But hey, my friends, I want to go ahead and stop analyzing the causes. It was a long and painful period and I need to move on.

I will do a rebuild with good came plate, oil pump, tappets, pushrods I already have, and start with a new tune.

So what's the better choice?

He who does not study history is destine to repeat it.
It really does not matter what you pick as long as you have plan in place to not ride the bike until after the new engine combo has been tuned.

[ben31]

I plan to build, tune and then ride!
The tune will follow any combo, but my question is mainly about quality and known issues of different possibilities.
I want a bit more power, sure, mainly torque on the left to mid part of the curve, but first requirements are durability and fiability.

You for sure have knowledge of what's preferable, what's more often used, the results, the impacts...

[Hossamania]

After having that kind of poor experience, I would want to definitely go all the way down and start from the crank up and make it as bullet proof as possible, without leaving any power behind. Spending that kind of money, I would want it to kick the crap out of my friends for years. It would be very hard to not go 124", but there many great running 110's in the Dyno section that would fit the bill.

[Don D]

I plan to build, tune and then ride!
The tune will follow any combo, but my question is mainly about quality and known issues of different possibilities.
I want a bit more power, sure, mainly torque on the left to mid part of the curve, but first requirements are durability and fiability.

You for sure have knowledge of what's preferable, what's more often used, the results, the impacts...

You are in france. Changes things some. Access to good tuning shops is one possibly? Go back stock but change the lifters, crank S&S, and valve springs. I can help there.
If budget allows go up to HD 117" kit and SE585 cam or similar.

[MikeL]

What if a piston cooler clogged say from debris like came shoes or flecks of oil pump housing...........?


                                                                                                       MIKE

[flhxi2go]

What ever you do, make sure you replace or clean the hell out of the oil bag

[Boe Cole]

With all that damage, I'd probably be looking to replace the engine as I can't help but thinking it might be more cost effective to replace rather than repair and hope it doesn't take a  again!!!

[rbabos]

With all that damage, I'd probably be looking to replace the engine as I can't help but thinking it might be more cost effective to replace rather than repair and hope it doesn't take a  again!!!

I was wondering the same. At one time there were all kinds of take out engines when some went to the 120 crate engines. Way cheaper then a full rebuild especially when talking from crank up.
Ron

[ben31]

I understand you're point of view but I have others arguments:
- I don't think the problem was that bad, as I drove the bike to the dealer, and some days later, he ran the engine to make his opinion
- I plan to make the mechanic myself, maybe with some friends, and with support of an expert official HD mechanic
- I don't have access to as many take out engines as you say, because I live in France

So I'm staying with my rebuild plan, keeping my fingers crossed

But I'm listening your advices with lot of attention

[1FSTRK]

I plan to build, tune and then ride!
The tune will follow any combo, but my question is mainly about quality and known issues of different possibilities.
I want a bit more power, sure, mainly torque on the left to mid part of the curve, but first requirements are durability and fiability.

You for sure have knowledge of what's preferable, what's more often used, the results, the impacts...

After reading the rest of the posts I would think your best plan would be a complete kit of your choice, CI will not matter much as far as install or reliability. Get a common kit that includes crank, cylinders, pistons, and piston jets. This will allow you to replace everything that is questionable, completely clean all reused parts, and with a known kit/combination they should be able to provide you the baseline tune calibration. As mentioned above pull and clean all oil lines and the oil tank.
Good luck

[ben31]

Top of piston is nice (I cleaned it), side and skirt are scored, under the piston and top of the other one (not cleaned)

[ben31]

Cylinder is scored, and the opposite side is cracked

[DTTJGlide]

No doubt it has to be disassembled & completely cleaned, before doing that I would check the runout on the crank to see where you sit on ability to reuse it or need to replace. If everything looks good after disassembly it depends somewhat on how much you have to spend & what services are available to you in France. If you don't have someone that can service the crank in France you are better off just going with a replacement, S&S as suggested above, as the cost to ship back & forth is probably not worth it. If it's in your budget a complete S&S 124 kit is good choice. If you're not looking to spend that much & the runout on your crank is good I'd say to bore your cases & go with a S&S 117 cylinder & pistons kit, there's no reason to go with a drop in kit if you're splitting the cases. Best of luck with whatever you decide.

[prodrag1320]

id do a 124"