Which rebuild after 110 seizure

[ben31]

I have to rebuild my 110 and I wonder what engine to go for.

Long story made short: 3500mi after my dealer changed cams, tappets, oil pump, pushrods, and one valve because of a bad noise, the rear cylinder seized. He didn't want to repair under warranty and after a long conflict, I had to get back my bike, after paying disassembly and a lot of caretaking costs...

So the rear piston scored badly, piston skirt is damaged, rings are welded, lower end of cylinder is scored and with a thin crack.
As the engine was still running, I believe the crankshaft didn't suffered, and would perfer not to change it...

My plan is, for now, to replace cylinders, pistons and cams.
I could go for another 110 either by SE or an aftermarket provider, but I could take advantage of this situation to begin a cool upgrade, to 113 or 117 (or 124?)

I have seen several possibilities and would like an advice:

- SE 117 kit (92500051): drop in, no modification (case boring)
- S&S 117 (910-0474): .060 shorter cylinder: have to modify TB ?
- Zippers 1117 (520-417S): .045 longer cylinder: have to change TB?
- Revolution performance 117 (DragSpe 0903-0897)
- Suburban Harley solution 4-1/8 SE cylinder + Mahle pistons
- Fuel Moto 113 kit for CVO (FMS-11-X): with cams, lifters, pushrods, bearings!

Of course if I need to change the crankshaft, I could stay with a 4-3/8 (S&S, Darkhorse, SE) or go to a 4-5/8 and build a 124... But is it rational on a Softail Deluxe?

[rigidthumper]

"So the rear piston scored badly, piston skirt is damaged, rings are welded, lower end of cylinder is scored and with a thin crack.
As the engine was still running, I believe the crankshaft didn't suffered, and would perfer not to change it..."

There's no way in hell I'd drop a top end on this without doing a case split & clean, new bearings and addressing the crank. Tiny pieces of the piston/ring/etc are in the oil, so the lower end bearings, as well as the counterbalancer bearings, were probably contaminated. You don't want to do this a third time. What did the dealer say was the cause?

[ben31]

There's no way in hell I'd drop a top end on this without doing a case split & clean, new bearings and addressing the crank. Tiny pieces of the piston/ring/etc are in the oil, so the lower end bearings, as well as the counterbalancer bearings, were probably contaminated. You don't want to do this a third time. What did the dealer say was the cause?

Even if I would prefer avoid opening the lower end, I think you're right... A good cleaning and checking of case seems mandatory.
And if I open arises the question about the crank. Reuse or replace?

The dealer said my tune was the cause, and didn't questionned himself about his first intervention.
My expert didn't agree and technician friend of mine either but we had no weight in front of HD...

[1FSTRK]

There's no way in hell I'd drop a top end on this without doing a case split & clean, new bearings and addressing the crank. Tiny pieces of the piston/ring/etc are in the oil, so the lower end bearings, as well as the counterbalancer bearings, were probably contaminated. You don't want to do this a third time. What did the dealer say was the cause?

Even if I would prefer avoid opening the lower end, I think you're right... A good cleaning and checking of case seems mandatory.
And if I open arises the question about the crank. Reuse or replace?

The dealer said my tune was the cause, and didn't questionned himself about his first intervention.
My expert didn't agree and technician friend of mine either but we had no weight in front of HD...

So what did your expert and technician freind state as the cause?

[ben31]

They supposed it was a lubrification failure...
There were no marks of excessive heat on the piston, no clue of poor or rich mixture...

And there was an initial problem, and a first rebuilt, that could have not treated completly the problem or even generated new issues.

[rigidthumper]

Even if I would prefer avoid opening the lower end, I think you're right... A good cleaning and checking of case seems mandatory.
And if I open arises the question about the crank. Reuse or replace?

If I were going to go 110/113/117, I'd either have DarkHorse Crankworks rebuild the flywheels with better rods, or use an S&S flywheel, depending on how the budget stands. If you're considering a 124,  then S&S.  Either way, please consider having a plan to verify that the tune is correct for the components installed, just in case the dealer isn't completely wrong.   Can you post a picture of the top & underside of the pistons?

[koko3052]

I don't agree with a lubrication failure as that should have affected the front cylinder also. I would lean towards tune.

[ben31]

Can you post a picture of the top & underside of the pistons?

I will take some pictures when I go back home.
Unfortunately, I have cleaned the faulty piston in order to make a nice decoration on my desk, but the marks are still here. The top of the other piston is in the same shape.

Actually, my bike stayed almost one year in the dealer workshop, and I got it back few months ago.
Now I can plan the rebuild as I have a little money for this...

[Hossamania]

I'm just curious, what year bike, is the 110" the original motor or an upgrade, who did the upgrade if it is, how many miles were on it, what kind of tune was used? I'm curious about the history of the motor.
One year in the shop? That just seems unacceptable.

[ben31]

I don't agree with a lubrication failure as that should have affected the front cylinder also. I would lean towards tune.

The front cylinder began to be lightly scored also...

I understand the causes are fundamentals, if I do not want to reproduce the problem...
But hey, my friends, I want to go ahead and stop analyzing the causes. It was a long and painful period and I need to move on.

I will do a rebuild with good came plate, oil pump, tappets, pushrods I already have, and start with a new tune.

So what's the better choice?

[ben31]

I'm just curious, what year bike, is the 110" the original motor or an upgrade, who did the upgrade if it is, how many miles were on it, what kind of tune was used? I'm curious about the history of the motor.
One year in the shop? That just seems unacceptable.

The bike is a CVO Softail Deluxe, FLSTNSE 14.
Few modifications: Rush Performance muffler, tuned with Power Vision and Target Tune.

The one year is because, it took very long time for experts to argue, and me to take a decision, until the dealer send me a letter with menace of lawsuit.

[1FSTRK]

I don't agree with a lubrication failure as that should have affected the front cylinder also. I would lean towards tune.

The front cylinder began to be lightly scored also...

I understand the causes are fundamentals, if I do not want to reproduce the problem...
But hey, my friends, I want to go ahead and stop analyzing the causes. It was a long and painful period and I need to move on.

I will do a rebuild with good came plate, oil pump, tappets, pushrods I already have, and start with a new tune.

So what's the better choice?

He who does not study history is destine to repeat it.
It really does not matter what you pick as long as you have plan in place to not ride the bike until after the new engine combo has been tuned.

[ben31]

I plan to build, tune and then ride!
The tune will follow any combo, but my question is mainly about quality and known issues of different possibilities.
I want a bit more power, sure, mainly torque on the left to mid part of the curve, but first requirements are durability and fiability.

You for sure have knowledge of what's preferable, what's more often used, the results, the impacts...

[Hossamania]

After having that kind of poor experience, I would want to definitely go all the way down and start from the crank up and make it as bullet proof as possible, without leaving any power behind. Spending that kind of money, I would want it to kick the crap out of my friends for years. It would be very hard to not go 124", but there many great running 110's in the Dyno section that would fit the bill.

[Don D]

I plan to build, tune and then ride!
The tune will follow any combo, but my question is mainly about quality and known issues of different possibilities.
I want a bit more power, sure, mainly torque on the left to mid part of the curve, but first requirements are durability and fiability.

You for sure have knowledge of what's preferable, what's more often used, the results, the impacts...

You are in france. Changes things some. Access to good tuning shops is one possibly? Go back stock but change the lifters, crank S&S, and valve springs. I can help there.
If budget allows go up to HD 117" kit and SE585 cam or similar.

[MikeL]

What if a piston cooler clogged say from debris like came shoes or flecks of oil pump housing...........?


                                                                                                       MIKE

[flhxi2go]

What ever you do, make sure you replace or clean the hell out of the oil bag

[Boe Cole]

With all that damage, I'd probably be looking to replace the engine as I can't help but thinking it might be more cost effective to replace rather than repair and hope it doesn't take a  again!!!

[rbabos]

With all that damage, I'd probably be looking to replace the engine as I can't help but thinking it might be more cost effective to replace rather than repair and hope it doesn't take a  again!!!

I was wondering the same. At one time there were all kinds of take out engines when some went to the 120 crate engines. Way cheaper then a full rebuild especially when talking from crank up.
Ron

[ben31]

I understand you're point of view but I have others arguments:
- I don't think the problem was that bad, as I drove the bike to the dealer, and some days later, he ran the engine to make his opinion
- I plan to make the mechanic myself, maybe with some friends, and with support of an expert official HD mechanic
- I don't have access to as many take out engines as you say, because I live in France

So I'm staying with my rebuild plan, keeping my fingers crossed

But I'm listening your advices with lot of attention

[1FSTRK]

I plan to build, tune and then ride!
The tune will follow any combo, but my question is mainly about quality and known issues of different possibilities.
I want a bit more power, sure, mainly torque on the left to mid part of the curve, but first requirements are durability and fiability.

You for sure have knowledge of what's preferable, what's more often used, the results, the impacts...

After reading the rest of the posts I would think your best plan would be a complete kit of your choice, CI will not matter much as far as install or reliability. Get a common kit that includes crank, cylinders, pistons, and piston jets. This will allow you to replace everything that is questionable, completely clean all reused parts, and with a known kit/combination they should be able to provide you the baseline tune calibration. As mentioned above pull and clean all oil lines and the oil tank.
Good luck

[ben31]

Top of piston is nice (I cleaned it), side and skirt are scored, under the piston and top of the other one (not cleaned)

[ben31]

Cylinder is scored, and the opposite side is cracked

[DTTJGlide]

No doubt it has to be disassembled & completely cleaned, before doing that I would check the runout on the crank to see where you sit on ability to reuse it or need to replace. If everything looks good after disassembly it depends somewhat on how much you have to spend & what services are available to you in France. If you don't have someone that can service the crank in France you are better off just going with a replacement, S&S as suggested above, as the cost to ship back & forth is probably not worth it. If it's in your budget a complete S&S 124 kit is good choice. If you're not looking to spend that much & the runout on your crank is good I'd say to bore your cases & go with a S&S 117 cylinder & pistons kit, there's no reason to go with a drop in kit if you're splitting the cases. Best of luck with whatever you decide.

[prodrag1320]

id do a 124"

[rigidthumper]

The underside shows me what I expected. Black death. Those chunks of aluminum went everywhere, carried by the oil.

Given your location, new S&S flywheel, new pistons & cylinders to match your desired displacement, new piston squirters, new camplate, oil pump, lifters, cams to suit build, secure a tune/tuner specifically for the new build.


Remove & clean oil bag, split cases, remove every bearing and clean/flush every surface and component that has oil contact, including heads/rockers/shafts/springs/etc. Go back together with new bearings & seals, and upgrade the clutch to hold whatever build you decide on. Get it tuned.

[1FSTRK]

The underside shows me what I expected. Black death. Those chunks of aluminum went everywhere, carried by the oil.

Could you explain to us what "Black death" is and what causes it?

[rigidthumper]

As I understand it, detonation ( typically from the tune being not so great) most often causes the underside of the piston to show black discoloration,( aka black death) as seen in pic # 408.  Too much timing and/or too little fuel for the requested load is believed to be the cause. Detonation can direct forces onto the top of the piston so the piston rattles back and forth in the bore, on the upstroke, causing both the thrust & non-thrust side of the piston to momentarily slap back and forth, causing damage and excessive, rapid, wear. ( pic 405)

[1FSTRK]

Thank you that is what is thought.
I have also seen definitions include, to much fuel washing the cylinder walls, in addition to what you listed in you causes. 

Many seem to forget that because the tune changes with both rpm and load the engine could run both lean in one area and rich in another, as well as too retarded and too advanced.

[Don D]

Good input and suggestions already. One other remote possibility for a cause, loose piston jet(s). This is a known issue.

Conclusion is the likely cause was not a lubrication related issue and more than likely was caused by a tune that was very far off. I suggest you get a handle on how you will get this squared away after you go to the expense and trouble to rebuild it. Consider a Thundermax autotune if you don't have access to a good tuning shop and dyno. If you do have access be sure to interview them and get a feel for their proficiency. Tune on an EFI bike is mission critical.

[1FSTRK]

Good input and suggestions already. One other remote possibility for a cause, loose piston jet(s). This is a known issue.

Conclusion is the likely cause was not a lubrication related issue and more than likely was caused by a tune that was very far off. I suggest you get a handle on how you will get this squared away after you go to the expense and trouble to rebuild it. Consider a Thundermax autotune if you don't have access to a good tuning shop and dyno. If you do have access be sure to interview them and get a feel for their proficiency. Tune on an EFI bike is mission critical.

Don he has PV target tune and that is more than capable of tuning AFR on any HD. The problem as I have seen watching these threads is any build combination that does not come as a kit with a matching EFI cal will be under break in with little to no tune. As you well know the most critical point in an engines life to have correct timing and afr is when you are at the tightest tolerances, highest friction and heat.

[Don D]

Didn't know that and agree with you 100%

[rbabos]

Black death is referred to as sludge breaking free and blocking off oil feed to engine parts. Basically oil related, usually switching to a detergent oil on an engine run for extended periods on none detergent. The failures in this engine from the pics shows serious overheating from any of the possible reasons mentioned. When you expand a piston to gall outside of the cam ground area, that's some serious heat.
Ron

[1FSTRK]

Black death is referred to as sludge breaking free and blocking off oil feed to engine parts. Basically oil related, usually switching to a detergent oil on an engine run for extended periods on none detergent. The failures in this engine from the pics shows serious overheating from any of the possible reasons mentioned. When you expand a piston to gall outside of the cam ground area, that's some serious heat.
Ron

That is interesting, I will have to remember that definition also. I wonder if the different definition is geographic or from engine application. Around my area it is used as Robin described and most usually in race engines, more so with Nitromethane and alcohol straight line stuff but also seen in high performance gas engines.

Always interesting how the language varies from group to group
Tomato; fruit, vegetable, or in the right group of guys a shapely good looking girl. 

[98fxstc]

I had a computer with a problem one time.
I got an IT guy to have a look at it for me.
He said 'Its got the black death" .
The hard drive was stuffed.

Probably comes from the 'Black Death' which occurred from time to time in the Middle Ages in England.
If you get it, you're pretty much cactus.

[Moparnut72]

Black death is referred to as sludge breaking free and blocking off oil feed to engine parts. Basically oil related, usually switching to a detergent oil on an engine run for extended periods on none detergent. The failures in this engine from the pics shows serious overheating from any of the possible reasons mentioned. When you expand a piston to gall outside of the cam ground area, that's some serious heat.
Ron

First of all I will say I have no experience with the internals of Harley engines. I have worked in a shop that overhauled radial aircraft engines. I also have extensive experience with marine outboard motors. In the aircraft engine world, I tore down all the engines that came into the shop and I never saw one with this kind of damage. In the outboard world I have seen this all the time. It is very common. It is almost always always caused by water pump failure, impeller failure, causing severe overheating. Also a result with our racing activities by jacking the motor up too high and losing access to cooling water. This was most certainly caused by an overheating problem. Since this is an air cooled engine we can most likely rule out an external cooling cause. Since these engines are  lubricated and to some degree cooled by the oil supply I would surmise that there was some type of oil supply failure. Since the rear cylinder is much worse than the front and runs hotter I would suspect that this accelerated the damage in this cylinder making it worse than the front. When things started going south, lack of oil, it was the one to show the most damage. I would be looking at the engine oiling starting with the oil bag.

I don't see anything in those pictures that indicate a improper tuning to cause this much damage. The underside of that piston looks perfectly normal to me. Some pitting in the carbon on the top but nothing that indicates severe detonation. Overheating was the cause you just need to find out why. My 2 cents for what it is worth.
kk