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Adding a cam to a 2010 96" with headwork vs bolt in cam in a 2013 103

Started by Adam76, December 10, 2018, 09:13:26 PM

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Adam76

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 11, 2018, 05:15:49 PM
There are many ways to get to your goals, it will really come down to what bikes are available to you to start with and then budget.

Do not over look Robin's post (reply #11), The later factory 103ci bikes have many upgrades already, the better comp sprocket, ACR's, ECM strategy, and heated O2 sensors just to name a few things. Those things all make a bigger difference once you start make power upgrades.
Thanks 1FSTRK,
My plan now is to pick up the 2013 103"  do the well proven CR 570 bolt in cam -- but go in from the top so I can swap out for a thinner head gasket to bump comp a bit,  and also reuse the stock push rods saving a bit of $$... Can thus be done with the stock pushrods considering the. 030 HG and the 570 lift of the cams?
Appreciate your thoughts. Cheers

1FSTRK

Quote from: Adam76 on December 13, 2018, 05:12:28 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 11, 2018, 05:15:49 PM
There are many ways to get to your goals, it will really come down to what bikes are available to you to start with and then budget.

Do not over look Robin's post (reply #11), The later factory 103ci bikes have many upgrades already, the better comp sprocket, ACR's, ECM strategy, and heated O2 sensors just to name a few things. Those things all make a bigger difference once you start make power upgrades.
Thanks 1FSTRK,
My plan now is to pick up the 2013 103"  do the well proven CR 570 bolt in cam -- but go in from the top so I can swap out for a thinner head gasket to bump comp a bit,  and also reuse the stock push rods saving a bit of $$... Can thus be done with the stock pushrods considering the. 030 HG and the 570 lift of the cams?
Appreciate your thoughts. Cheers

Good plan, you need to add a tune to the plan, it is crucial to a successful outcome.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

kd

I'm sure someone with experience with 570 installs will chime in with the TDC lift and fit.   I just wanted to add, the .030  head gasket is more effective at improving cylinder swirl to reduce detonation than raising compression (even though it does that too).   Using the stock pushrods with the .030 gasket instead of the .045 OEM will move the lifter plunger depth from the .100 mid range level to .115 which is also a preferred depth for many. It may help a bit with hot soak starting and in some cases tame a little of the sewing machine lifter sounds and cold start-up clatter. The .030 gasket is IMO an all around good choice.

Edited for calc error   :embarrassed:
KD

Adam76

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 13, 2018, 05:21:20 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on December 13, 2018, 05:12:28 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 11, 2018, 05:15:49 PM
There are many ways to get to your goals, it will really come down to what bikes are available to you to start with and then budget.

Do not over look Robin's post (reply #11), The later factory 103ci bikes have many upgrades already, the better comp sprocket, ACR's, ECM strategy, and heated O2 sensors just to name a few things. Those things all make a bigger difference once you start make power upgrades.
Thanks 1FSTRK,
My plan now is to pick up the 2013 103"  do the well proven CR 570 bolt in cam -- but go in from the top so I can swap out for a thinner head gasket to bump comp a bit,  and also reuse the stock push rods saving a bit of $$... Can thus be done with the stock pushrods considering the. 030 HG and the 570 lift of the cams?
Appreciate your thoughts. Cheers

Good plan, you need to add a tune to the plan, it is crucial to a successful outcome.
Thanks!  Yes I have a great tuner not far from me which was always part of the plan using a power vision tuner.  👍

Adam76

Quote from: kd on December 13, 2018, 05:37:19 PM
I'm sure someone with experience with 570 installs will chime in with the TDC lift and fit.   I just wanted to add, the .030  head gasket is more effective at improving cylinder swirl to reduce detonation than raising compression (even though it does that too).   Using the stock pushrods with the .030 gasket will move the lifter plunger depth from the .100 mid range level to .130 which is also a preferred depth for many. It may help a bit with hot soak starting and in some cases tame a little of the sewing machine lifter sounds and cold start-up clatter. The .030 gasket is IMO an all around good choice,
Thanks for the info.  If it ask checks out like you suggest,  then I'm ask set to go.  👍

Hilly13

Just because its said don't make it so

1FSTRK

Quote from: Adam76 on December 13, 2018, 06:11:45 PM
Quote from: kd on December 13, 2018, 05:37:19 PM
I'm sure someone with experience with 570 installs will chime in with the TDC lift and fit.   I just wanted to add, the .030  head gasket is more effective at improving cylinder swirl to reduce detonation than raising compression (even though it does that too).   Using the stock pushrods with the .030 gasket will move the lifter plunger depth from the .100 mid range level to .130 which is also a preferred depth for many. It may help a bit with hot soak starting and in some cases tame a little of the sewing machine lifter sounds and cold start-up clatter. The .030 gasket is IMO an all around good choice,
Thanks for the info.  If it ask checks out like you suggest,  then I'm ask set to go.  👍

It is always good to confirm but this has been done many times so nothing new to look for.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

PoorUB

The base circle on the CR570-2 is the same as stock. You can run the stock push rods will put the plunger .015" farther into the lifter. The lifter in a stock bike is running right in the middle of the .180" plunger travel so no problems. Actually the stock head gasket is .045" so if you run a .030" it is only .015" difference.

I went through this and did it the long and wrong way. I figured the stock rods would be the wrong length so I cut them out then decided to order stock style push rods instead of adjustables. After careful measurements I ordered a set of Smiths that turned out to be the same length as stock. I would have reused the OEM push rods if I had not cut them out! :banghead:

I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

kd

Quote from: PoorUB on December 13, 2018, 07:08:48 PM
The base circle on the CR570-2 is the same as stock. You can run the stock push rods will put the plunger .015" farther into the lifter. The lifter in a stock bike is running right in the middle of the .180" plunger travel so no problems. Actually the stock head gasket is .045" so if you run a .030" it is only .015" difference.

I went through this and did it the long and wrong way. I figured the stock rods would be the wrong length so I cut them out then decided to order stock style push rods instead of adjustables. After careful measurements I ordered a set of Smiths that turned out to be the same length as stock. I would have reused the OEM push rods if I had not cut them out! :banghead:




I' Glad I read this.  In my haste I blew the measurement for the pushrod depth.  The .030 gasket is only .015 thinner than the stock .045 gasket.   :embarrassed:  The above measurement is the correct depth. 
KD

Adam76


Adam76

Quote from: PoorUB on December 13, 2018, 07:08:48 PM
The base circle on the CR570-2 is the same as stock. You can run the stock push rods will put the plunger .015" farther into the lifter....
Cool, thanks for the info. The cam I'm wanting to use is the CR570 (not the 570-2) but I assume the same calculations apply?
Thanks.  👍

Hilly13

Quote from: Adam76 on December 14, 2018, 03:29:44 AM
Quote from: Hilly13 on December 13, 2018, 06:45:43 PM
Where are you Adam?
Perth WA.
I've tried pm you,  but not working I don't think.
Cheers

Dunno on the pm but copy on WA, so Deano would be your dyno bloke? If so from what I've been told he will do a good job mate.
Just because its said don't make it so

Durwood

The CR-570-2 replaced the CR-570 in the line up a while back, the -2's make the same curve as the 570 but are quiet in terms of VT noise.

FWIW, the stock 103 head gaskets that I have removed and measured have been .052" thick.

Also, are you going to replace the 46mm throttle body currently on the Fatboy?

kd

Quote from: Durwood on December 14, 2018, 05:18:23 AM
The CR-570-2 replaced the CR-570 in the line up a while back, the -2's make the same curve as the 570 but are quiet in terms of VT noise.

FWIW, the stock 103 head gaskets that I have removed and measured have been .052" thick.

Also, are you going to replace the 46mm throttle body currently on the Fatboy?


Well there you go.  Another measurement from someone that has been doing lots of them.  When you take it apart measure what you take out and confirm your calculations so you know. ....  .022 difference will have more effect on compression but should still be a non issue with the pushrods. .


KD

Adam76

Quote from: Durwood on December 14, 2018, 05:18:23 AM
The CR-570-2 replaced the CR-570 in the line up a while back, the -2's make the same curve as the 570 but are quiet in terms of VT noise.

FWIW, the stock 103 head gaskets that I have removed and measured have been .052" thick.

Also, are you going to replace the 46mm throttle body currently on the Fatboy?
Hey Durwood, thanks for the reply.
Is a shame they replaced the 570 with the 570-2..... I liked the curve of the 570 better because I didn't want a low end TQ cam and  it seemed slightly more biased toward to right, and seemed to yield more hp from the dyno charts I've seen from you.  But I guess the differences probably come  down to exhaust choice and proper tuning more than anything else? 

As far as the throttle body goes,  should I be replacing it with this combo?
Thanks again for your advice.

Adam76

Quote from: Hilly13 on December 14, 2018, 03:45:28 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on December 14, 2018, 03:29:44 AM
Quote from: Hilly13 on December 13, 2018, 06:45:43 PM
Where are you Adam?
Perth WA.
I've tried pm you,  but not working I don't think.
Cheers

Dunno on the pm but copy on WA, so Deano would be your dyno bloke? If so from what I've been told he will do a good job mate.
Yah,  Deano is not doing the dyno himself anymore,  but yes Thundertech is where I'll be going for the tune.  Had a few bikes done there previously.  👍

Durwood

Quote from: Adam76 on December 15, 2018, 03:11:45 AM
Quote from: Durwood on December 14, 2018, 05:18:23 AM
The CR-570-2 replaced the CR-570 in the line up a while back, the -2's make the same curve as the 570 but are quiet in terms of VT noise.

FWIW, the stock 103 head gaskets that I have removed and measured have been .052" thick.

Also, are you going to replace the 46mm throttle body currently on the Fatboy?
Hey Durwood, thanks for the reply.
Is a shame they replaced the 570 with the 570-2..... I liked the curve of the 570 better because I didn't want a low end TQ cam and  it seemed slightly more biased toward to right, and seemed to yield more hp from the dyno charts I've seen from you.  But I guess the differences probably come  down to exhaust choice and proper tuning more than anything else? 

As far as the throttle body goes,  should I be replacing it with this combo?
Thanks again for your advice.
The Softail has about a 5/5 disadvantage right off the bat with the counter balancer's, then factor in the smaller 46mm throttle body  and they take another hit.

Changing it is up to you, I am just pointing these things out so that you aren't surprised when you complete your upgrade and it doesn't produce the power that you see in the graphs of the touring bikes.

To answer your other question. Yes, exhaust and tune are also key to getting the desired results.

Adam76

Quote from: Durwood on December 15, 2018, 06:33:40 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on December 15, 2018, 03:11:45 AM
Quote from: Durwood on December 14, 2018, 05:18:23 AM
The CR-570-2 replaced the CR-570 in the line up a while back, the -2's make the same curve as the 570 but are quiet in terms of VT noise.

FWIW, the stock 103 head gaskets that I have removed and measured have been .052" thick.

Also, are you going to replace the 46mm throttle body currently on the Fatboy?
Hey Durwood, thanks for the reply.
Is a shame they replaced the 570 with the 570-2..... I liked the curve of the 570 better because I didn't want a low end TQ cam and  it seemed slightly more biased toward to right, and seemed to yield more hp from the dyno charts I've seen from you.  But I guess the differences probably come  down to exhaust choice and proper tuning more than anything else? 

As far as the throttle body goes,  should I be replacing it with this combo?
Thanks again for your advice.
The Softail has about a 5/5 disadvantage right off the bat with the counter balancer's, then factor in the smaller 46mm throttle body  and they take another hit.

Changing it is up to you, I am just pointing these things out so that you aren't surprised when you complete your upgrade and it doesn't produce the power that you see in the graphs of the touring bikes.

To answer your other question. Yes, exhaust and tune are also key to getting the desired results.

Thanks again for the info and appreciate the differences between the softail and the late model touring bikes producing better results.....
Looks like I may need some decent headwork to get the most out of the cam only upgrade? 

Thanks for all the great info in this thread. Cheers.
ALL the best for the festive season guys.  Ride safe.