Stock late model CVO heads

[Don D]

Hoss
I would agree partially, Have to be careful not to increase the cross sectional area but work on valve job, better guides and seals.  A little cleanup is not out of line. Got to keep eye on the ball, the stock heads are big, flow well, and can become too big in a hurry.

Gmr posted one, a 107 to 124" pretty impressive torque production, just a top end job. At 124" it wouldn't be hard to make a real sleeper with mild near stock cam and quiet exhaust. Would still have a killer torque curve and make 120/130 or better. Thing I like and I don't think is fully exploited yet is the octane tolerance of the pent roof head design. Look at what the Ducatis are doing with a similar head chamber design for compression, 12:1 is common street legal motor, albeit after the chamber the whole valvetrain, electronics, and variable cam timing is in another league than a Harley.

The CVO based head can work well too even at 110" and up but the LSA that works best and cam timing is not exactly the same as with the OEM head. This is why I get a little worked up when guys say a "good cam". A "good cam" for the application I can buy.

[Hossamania]

For reference, an out of the crate, bone stock CVO 110 put on the dyno puts down 100 TQ and 84 HP SAE. Know the guy who did this and believe him. This is only to compare to the later improvements.

No wonder those guys would get so pissed when I passed them right up with my little 95"!

[Hossamania]

Hoss
I would agree partially, Have to be careful not to increase the cross sectional area but work on valve job, better guides and seals.  A little cleanup is not out of line. Got to keep eye on the ball, the stock heads are big, flow well, and can become too big in a hurry.

Gmr posted one, a 107 to 124" pretty impressive torque production, just a top end job. At 124" it wouldn't be hard to make a real sleeper with mild near stock cam and quiet exhaust. Would still have a killer torque curve and make 120/130 or better. Thing I like and I don't think is fully exploited yet is the octane tolerance of the pent roof head design. Look at what the Ducatis are doing with a similar head chamber design for compression, 12:1 is common street legal motor, albeit after the chamber the whole valvetrain, electronics, and variable cam timing is in another league than a Harley.

The CVO based head can work well too even at 110" and up but the LSA that works best and cam timing is not exactly the same as with the OEM head. This is why I get a little worked up when guys say a "good cam". A "good cam" for the application I can buy.

I hear what you are saying. I'm not talking about a full on horsepower build. I was thinking more along the Twin Cam line, I see what good headwork does for those. The M8 heads really seem to work well in stock form. I'm just thinking that if I'm going to the trouble of a 124", I'd want the right cam for my goals, and to have the heads touched up for some improvement by a knowledgeable porter, not just "make them flow!"
After all, if one of my friends bolts on a 124", I still need to beat him....

[1FSTRK]

For reference, an out of the crate, bone stock CVO 110 put on the dyno puts down 100 TQ and 84 HP SAE. Know the guy who did this and believe him. This is only to compare to the later improvements.

Those numbers are also model specific.
I have found a few stock, stage one, and stage two dyno sheets so there is data available.
These all show the stock CVO head to be inefficient as far as HP/CFM and HP/CI just like the M-8. It is not until you increase the engine size that we see this improve. This was not so true with the stock Twin cam heads, early or late versions which trended the other way   

[PoorUB]

For reference, an out of the crate, bone stock CVO 110 put on the dyno puts down 100 TQ and 84 HP SAE. Know the guy who did this and believe him. This is only to compare to the later improvements.

Was that a bone stock, but tuned CVO 110". I don't think they did that well out of the factory.

[Hilly13]

Had a quick look in the dyno section but could not find it but if my memory is right there was a sheet of a 110 with stock heads, cam swap, high comp pistons, 58tb with a decent exhaust that made respectable numbers, I understand displacement increases change the way the heads perform but is that also true of compression?

[1FSTRK]

Had a quick look in the dyno section but could not find it but if my memory is right there was a sheet of a 110 with stock heads, cam swap, high comp pistons, 58tb with a decent exhaust that made respectable numbers, I understand displacement increases change the way the heads perform but is that also true of compression?

Technically the compression will not change the basic head flow but it will change the hp and tq so it shows up in the HP/CFM and HP/CI numbers. We have to keep things like that in mind when looking at this. It is the reason to compare the stock to stock, stage one to stage one, and so on. It is also the reason you want as large a data sample as you can find. When look at heads I look for the top examples, poor example can show less power but the top is the best the head can do so far as we know.

[Barrett]

The Zippers 110 Muscle Extreme kit makes about 150HP. That's a good example.. Here's the flow chart.

[1FSTRK]

The Zippers 110 Muscle Extreme kit makes about 150HP. That's a good example.. Here's the flow chart.

For the sake of this thread I am looking at Stock untouched CVO heads.
Thank you

[Don D]

Those are what heads? They are either an OEM head with a little warm over or a set of CVO heads stock assuming their test pressure was 28"

[Durwood]

A Friend picked up a 2014 CVO Softail and is looking to do some bolt on upgrades.
Does anyone have flow numbers for these late model stock CVO heads?
What is the most horsepower and tq you have seen with stock or big bore using Stock CVO heads?
I looked around the dyno section but not much is there with stock CVO heads. Any owners, tuners, or dyno sheets would be appreciated.

Here's one Stroker tuned a few years ago.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=73869.0

[1FSTRK]

Nice thread. I know Jim liked the 110 heads on the 103's as well.
Thanks for posting that Durwood.

I just got an email with the base runs from the bike.
2014 CVO all stock except Ventilator air cleaner and slip on mufflers.

Turns out this had XiEDs on it. Here is the base run.
  [attach=0,msg1271962]

Here the XiEDs were removed and the power went up.
[attach=1,msg1271962]

Here is the PV base tune, not a complete tune but the peak numbers would not change much.
[attach=2,msg1271962] 

[Hilly13]

Classic example of why to tune a stock bike right there.

[1FSTRK]

Classic example of why to tune a stock bike right there.

I have been saying stock because the engine is all stock but I guess this is really a stage one, it has slip-on mufflers and an air cleaner. It isn't even totally tuned, the right side of the graph needs a little work but they only wanted some type of close base line before the build. The bike was purchased used with about a thousand miles on it, neither the owner or the invoices from the dealer said anything about the XiEDs. The bike ran hot and a little rough, once it was on the dyno they could see the O2's acting strange and found them.

Back to the heads and build. At 95.86hp we are at .87 hp/ci. It looks like we need to gain 25 hp at 4750 rpm and about 35 hp at 5500 rpm to be any where near the numbers from strokerjlk's 110" graph and 1.09 hp/ci.

The 117" that ImBroke posted has 15 lbs more tq and 45 more hp above 5500 rpm.
That puts it over the 1.1 hp/ci range and the hp/cfm it is up as well so adding cubic inches did not just make it bigger, it is using the head more efficiently.

Neither example is giving up much in the 2000-2500 rpm range compared to my base line so they are not just shift the curve to the right and giving up low end TQ for HP. 

[Hilly13]

Yes that is a fair point on the stage 1.
Jim's graph does indicate the stock110 heads can work ok on a 110 given the right support even though that engine is a component or two past your brief.
Have you reached a point where you are comfortable to make a call on how to proceed?

[1FSTRK]

Yes that is a fair point on the stage 1.
Jim's graph does indicate the stock110 heads can work ok on a 110 given the right support even though that engine is a component or two past your brief.
Have you reached a point where you are comfortable to make a call on how to proceed?

No, I just did a search in the dyno section for "CVO head" and got 3 pages of graphs. A lot of them have head work but many are stock CVO heads. Looks like 110", 113", and 117" mostly.
I have little doubt that a bigger TB is first on the list, any cam will have the compression optimized but that is just common sense with any engine or head combo. It does look that in every example the heads like the bigger displacement.

This 117" had the heads milled so they are not 100% stock but it set the compression and saved buying different pistons, for my purpose they count.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=90075.msg1033769#msg1033769

[Hilly13]

110-120/124 versus 117-126/127, it depends what you want to get to at the end of the day I suppose. Good luck with whatever you decide to do, be interested to see how it turns out.

[1FSTRK]

110-120/124 versus 117-126/127, it depends what you want to get to at the end of the day I suppose. Good luck with whatever you decide to do, be interested to see how it turns out.

Talked to him today and went over much of this post. Unless the run out is crazy the bottom end stays in the bike, has less than 2000 original miles on it. Looks like the 117 drop-in is as big as it can get so we will research the best cam, intake, compression combo available. One thing that had been overlooked by me was the exhaust system, this is a Softail CVO and has Bags.

[Hilly13]

In case you are unaware Suburban Speed do a 117" with more comp than the Harley offering, exhaust, well there are good choices and not so good choices, pretty sure you know the difference there 

[1FSTRK]

If I have time I will have to dig around for some of the baselines I have or snap another. IIRC they were in the 270cfm range stock, head tested with a 45mm x 51mm velocity stack mounted.

i agree with Don that their is something up with those flow numbers.  best i ever seen for a stock head but i wonder why the flow pressure is so low ??   these numbers are not anything i see on a regular basis.  just curious.  dsv

I have yet to see a stock 110 head break 270cfm@28"

If any of you could reply, I am looking for a set of flow numbers for the average set of late model stock CVO castings.
I want to run some software calculations for this guys engine.
Any help from the you guys that do it everyday would be greatly appreciated.

I appreciate Hilly's post and the effort by him to share it here with us but with only one example it is too small a sample base.

[No Cents]

If I have time I will have to dig around for some of the baselines I have or snap another. IIRC they were in the 270cfm range stock, head tested with a 45mm x 51mm velocity stack mounted.

i agree with Don that their is something up with those flow numbers.  best i ever seen for a stock head but i wonder why the flow pressure is so low ??   these numbers are not anything i see on a regular basis.  just curious.  dsv

I have yet to see a stock 110 head break 270cfm@28"

If any of you could reply, I am looking for a set of flow numbers for the average set of late model stock CVO castings.
I want to run some software calculations for this guys engine.
Any help from the you guys that do it everyday would be greatly appreciated.

I appreciate Hilly's post and the effort by him to share it here with us but with only one example it is too small a sample base.

   pm wfolarry.
I'm sure he knows the answers your looking for.

[mike jesse]

I don't know if my dyno sheet is still up in that section.

14 CVO RK.

97 HP / 112 TQ.

Following mods.

GMR 577's, Crusher Mellows.

Tuned with TTS by Russel.

I then pulled the 110 heads off and zero decked the cylinders, added a pair of Baisley worked TC heads set to 86 CC, and a .030 HG.

Had Russel retune it and the outcome is  110 HP / 116 TQ.

My opinion is for a mild 110 such as this the standard TC head is the better option.

[1FSTRK]

I don't know if my dyno sheet is still up in that section.

14 CVO RK.

97 HP / 112 TQ.

Following mods.

GMR 577's, Crusher Mellows.

Tuned with TTS by Russel.

I then pulled the 110 heads off and zero decked the cylinders, added a pair of Baisley worked TC heads set to 86 CC, and a .030 HG.

Had Russel retune it and the outcome is  110 HP / 116 TQ.

My opinion is for a mild 110 such as this the standard TC head is the better option.

Mike, I agree but not just for mild builds. The guy that did both my bikes, 95" and 110" engines, used  oem 96" head castings.

The owner here knows all of this but would like to get all he can from his original stock CVO heads, that means he can use his budget on a much bigger engine and all that goes with it. We had hoped the a 117" would be big enough to get the CVO heads working but it now looks like it will fall a little short and he just doesn't want to go into the bottom end at this point. If I use the 270cfm number referred to earlier in the thread the best 117" stock CVO head engine I have seen is still coming in about .481 HP/CFM and I would like to at least break the .500 mark.

[mike jesse]

Understand. That could be a tall order but not impossible.

Might consider the Mahle 113 piston from Suburban Speed. 9 cc dome. Use the existing 110 cylinders.

Leaving coin on the table for quality head work.

Just another option.

Don't know the working budget.

[1FSTRK]

Understand. That could be a tall order but not impossible.

Might consider the Mahle 113 piston from Suburban Speed. 9 cc dome. Use the existing 110 cylinders.

Leaving coin on the table for quality head work.

Just another option.

Don't know the working budget.

The thing is to get the engine big enough to draw air through the massive ports. We can go 117" drop-in with Suburban's pistons. I personally would build from the inside out staring with a 124" crank and cylinders and his stock 110 CVO heads. With a solid bottom end the heads are easily changed anytime. He is clear that is not going to happen and I respect that so the limit will be 117 Drop-in and the bottom end stays in the frame.