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Harley SEPST Cranks to Fire

Started by Hilly13, November 26, 2018, 04:16:38 AM

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Hilly13

Have asked this elsewhere but hoping asking here will widen my net.
My 2016 Softail Slim S has always taken a few revolution's to fire, from when it was new and stock and through its various upgrades as time went on that has stayed pretty much the same, I have played with the start tables available over last couple of years and it will fire without flare or stumble hot or cold but always after a few revolution's, I have tried multiple calibrations with 259 cams in them as that's the closest to what I have been running but none of them have had a noticible impact on how many cranks it takes to fire, my 06 Dyna would start on button push but I had more tables available with TTS on that, does anyone have any ideas on what I could try with the SEPST software?
Cheers.
Just because its said don't make it so

98fxstc

I have similar problems with mine
I bring it out of the shed after standing for a week or overnight and it starts first time (or maybe 1 1/2 revolutions)
During the day, not so good
Usually turns over a couple of times before it starts and sometimes really drags out
Thought it might need more fuel
I bumped cranking fuel, by 5%, then another 5%, then another 5% and it didn't make any difference
Took it back to default values and it is probably the best

Have read where reducing timing (with some negative values) in the higher kPa and low rpm values will assist with cranking.
But I think I have that pretty close to were it should be

lonewolf

Quote from: Hilly13 on November 26, 2018, 04:16:38 AM
Have asked this elsewhere but hoping asking here will widen my net.
My 2016 Softail Slim S has always taken a few revolution's to fire, from when it was new and stock and through its various upgrades as time went on that has stayed pretty much the same, I have played with the start tables available over last couple of years and it will fire without flare or stumble hot or cold but always after a few revolution's, I have tried multiple calibrations with 259 cams in them as that's the closest to what I have been running but none of them have had a noticible impact on how many cranks it takes to fire, my 06 Dyna would start on button push but I had more tables available with TTS on that, does anyone have any ideas on what I could try with the SEPST software?
Cheers.
Try disabling your acr's, just as a test

Hilly13

98, thanks, yes I have adjusted the timing in the 750-1000 rpm rows from 80kpa and up to -3°, it seemed a little better but not majorly so, adjusting the fuel table from where it is now doesn't seem help that I can tell, up or down, negative effects yes, positive no. Our friend down your way had his firing on one revolution, same bike, same tuner, got to be something there somewhere.

Lonewolf, thanks, will do that this afternoon, I'm guessing the angle here is to make the slowing of the crank on compression more evident to the ECM?
Just because its said don't make it so

Hilly13

Quote from: lonewolf on November 26, 2018, 08:19:37 AM
Quote from: Hilly13 on November 26, 2018, 04:16:38 AM
Have asked this elsewhere but hoping asking here will widen my net.
My 2016 Softail Slim S has always taken a few revolution's to fire, from when it was new and stock and through its various upgrades as time went on that has stayed pretty much the same, I have played with the start tables available over last couple of years and it will fire without flare or stumble hot or cold but always after a few revolution's, I have tried multiple calibrations with 259 cams in them as that's the closest to what I have been running but none of them have had a noticible impact on how many cranks it takes to fire, my 06 Dyna would start on button push but I had more tables available with TTS on that, does anyone have any ideas on what I could try with the SEPST software?
Cheers.
Try disabling your acr's, just as a test


Did that today, all but stalled out the startermotor on the first crank as its got higher than stock compression but still took a few winds to start so no difference other than starter torture.
Just because its said don't make it so

FSG

hardwire the acr's to the starter, just as a test

Hilly13

Quote from: FSG on November 26, 2018, 10:36:39 PM
hardwire the acr's to the starter, just as a test
The acr's work Gary, I'm running the 621 cal, you can click them on and off with the stop/run switch and hear them quite distinctly, when I had them disabled in the cal flicking the switch made no clicking noises, it's not earthshattering bad, I would just like it to burst into life when I push the button  :SM:
Just because its said don't make it so

Hilly13

Just because its said don't make it so

jls 64

Tray the other way.adjust your timing +3*to +5*.in the 750-1000 rpm.just as a rest.it worket for me.
js

jls 64

js

Hilly13

So you are saying while using SEPSuperT that having the timing at +5° in the 80-100kpa area on the 750-1000rpm lines gave you an instant start at the push of the button?
Just because its said don't make it so

jls 64

It is just a test.i dont now much about sepst.i used a pcv and autotuner.
js

lonewolf

Quote from: Hilly13 on November 27, 2018, 02:04:17 PM
No ideas chaps?
I've not got the best memory but I don't remember any high compression builds that will stall the starter like that when cold. Can it be something else? I've seen north of 220 ccp. Again I only do that as a test cold.

kd

It may not be spinning it over fast enough to signal the ECM the compression hits. Where's Hoss? We need someone to suggest trying a jump start from a good (large) battery and a cable / connections inspection. The battery may not be as healthy as it should be. KISS
KD

Hilly13

It's done the spin over to start thing from new, even before I upped the comp, battery is its second one, no it's not 100% but when compression releases are activated it spins over fairly quickly, could it do with better cables? Probably, will hook it up to my 4x4 battery as a test but I don't think that's going to reduce the revolution's required to start it, just make them happen a bit quicker, but I will check, thanks for the interest fellas.
Just because its said don't make it so

kd

Right now, in my mind, I am stuck on confirming the compression signal is signaling the ECM to fire. That's where the simple jump start and battery connections suggestion come from. 

If you have spark at the first turn of the engine then that goes in the dumper.  It still remains that the engine may not fire immediately and the fact that the starter stalled on the first crank (without releases) then starter draw is also suspect (and may be slowing it down also) but then you claim it did this from new.

What lifters and pushrods and valve springs do you have?  Collapsed lifters can cause the heavy cranking on the initial spin you experienced.  Tight set lifters may also reduce the initial cranking compression (and signal until cranking speed picks up) much the same way they aid in cranking a hot soaked engine.  More thoughts to ponder. 
KD

FSG

while the ACRS are working (pulsed by the ECM)  I'd still try them wired direct to the starter so that they are open full time while cranking just in case they're not relieving enough when pulsed

Hilly13

November 28, 2018, 07:24:34 PM #17 Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 11:35:24 PM by Hilly13
KD, what I ment, from new it has always spun over a few times before starting, when it was stock, 110 with 255's it would still spin over without acr's being on, since I have upped the compression ratio without acr's it near stalls the starter on the first revolution, will do some checks as suggested.
FSG, I don't wanna do that but if nothing else works I will.

Edit, just so you know for sure what I have that may be relevant.
2016 FLSS
SE CVO 110B Engine
SE 10.5 Pistons
Stock CVO Heads
B-2313SE Lifters set one turn off the bottom.
SE Adjustables.
SEProSuperTuner - 621SFY205 Cal
T-Man 590PS-2 Cams.
.030" Cometic Gaskets.
Heritage headers, Rush slip-ons.

Just because its said don't make it so

Hilly13

Gee the starter motor is easy to get at...not!
Gunna be a weekend job I think, better cables and a neg to the starter while there.
Also, another chap mentioned that perhaps my crank sensor has been iffy since new, I think a quick swap with a known good one would be good idea as well.
Another Aussie, a friend of mine had the same bike, 117 kit, more comp than me, started on the first or second revolution, same SE tuner, something is there somewhere.
Just because its said don't make it so

1FSTRK

Quote from: Hilly13 on November 28, 2018, 11:45:34 PM
Gee the starter motor is easy to get at...not!
Gunna be a weekend job I think, better cables and a neg to the starter while there.
Also, another chap mentioned that perhaps my crank sensor has been iffy since new, I think a quick swap with a known good one would be good idea as well.
Another Aussie, a friend of mine had the same bike, 117 kit, more comp than me, started on the first or second revolution, same SE tuner, something is there somewhere.

Try flashing your bike with the exact cal he is using. You don't need to run it, just see if it fixes the start issue. That should confirm the cal isn't the problem.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Hilly13

Fair call, I have used that cal as well, not his exact one though, I wonder if he still has it, sold the the bike but he would probably still have the cal on his computer, I'll ask him tomorrow, thanks for the idea.
Just because its said don't make it so

Hilly13

1FSTRK, I have a copy of my friends cal, unfortunately it's a 617 and can't be flashed in by my level of software so the best I can do is copy over the relevant table values to the 621 equivalent, which is the cal I'm using now as it turns out.
No other progress this weekend, had a lot on and couldn't get to the bike.
Just because its said don't make it so

rigidthumper

Might try B621SHD203, corrected for displacement (This issue may be because the SFY cal is made for a touring bike, not a softail, but IDK)
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

Hilly13

Quote from: rigidthumper on December 03, 2018, 09:21:16 AM
Might try B621SHD203, corrected for displacement (This issue may be because the SFY cal is made for a touring bike, not a softail, but IDK)
Thanks for the suggestion Robin, unfortunately there is no difference in the starting side of things, the SHD was the cal I was using initially and the SFY ended up in there because I was testing other calibrations to see if there was any improvement to be had in starting, the SFY stayed because it feels better, less rpm variation at steady throttle, smoother in lower rpm ranges, I don't know why but better is better. Still have a few things to try just got to find the time to get to it.
Just because its said don't make it so

rigidthumper

A thought-  try small ( like 2-4%) throttle openings, and then hit the button-if that makes a difference, increaseing the IAC warmup steps should have the same effect.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

Hilly13

Quote from: rigidthumper on December 04, 2018, 06:30:52 AM
A thought-  try small ( like 2-4%) throttle openings, and then hit the button-if that makes a difference, increaseing the IAC warmup steps should have the same effect.
That and your timing tips are about all there is that can be adjusted to possibly help me thinks, I have tried the warm up steps before but will again, thanks Robin, I do appreciate your interest in this, I'm flat out with work till Friday then fly out that afternoon for a week so I'm just not going to get a chance to get to the bike the way it's looking. Will update when I do.
Just because its said don't make it so

Hilly13

Quote from: Hilly13 on December 04, 2018, 10:11:23 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on December 04, 2018, 06:30:52 AM
A thought-  try small ( like 2-4%) throttle openings, and then hit the button-if that makes a difference, increaseing the IAC warmup steps should have the same effect.
That and your timing tips are about all there is that can be adjusted to possibly help me thinks, I have tried the warm up steps before but will again, thanks Robin, I do appreciate your interest in this, I'm flat out with work till Friday then fly out that afternoon for a week so I'm just not going to get a chance to get to the bike the way it's looking. Will update when I do.

Got a quick look at it this afternoon before I had to get ready for the plane, opening the throttle a tad before cranking it didn't change the number of cranks to fire it just made it rev up a bit when it did fire, I have adjusted the IAC warm up table before and I think that's pretty much what it did when I raised the numbers, went 5%, then 10% from memory and it did sfa to the the cranks to fire, that's it for 10 days though, out of town in a few minutes.
Just because its said don't make it so

1FSTRK

"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Hilly13

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 21, 2018, 03:35:52 AM
Any news on this?

Not as yet, haven't had a chance to look at it since I got back home, work keeps getting in the way.
Just because its said don't make it so

Hilly13

Well it's been awhile, 120 days apparently  :embarrassed: but thought I would carry on again from where I left off.
To try and keep this in chronological order since my last post.
Pulled the battery leads off and cleaned all mating surfaces including paint where it earth's. No change.
Hooked the bike up to my 4X4 battery.
Spun over slightly faster but same amount of cranks to fire.
The battery in the bike died so replaced it with an SSB 400CCA, same deal as the 4X4 battery.
Replaced battery leads with better ones.
I felt good about it, the bike didn't notice  :cry:.
Revisited the tables in the calibration that I have access to even though I had been here before.
Cranking Fuel, going up just makes it smell and eventually backfire, going down takes more turns to fire.
IAC steps, going up made it puff out of the intake, going down 5 points actually made it slightly better, as in it now started in 3-4 revolutions more often than 4-5, still went to 5 just not often.
Adjusted the timing in the 750-1000rpm rows from 70-100kpa, went both ways, + and - numbers, the - settings work better. I changed the crank sensor just to see if there was any change in behaviour.
It now seems to start more often in 2-3 revolutions but sometimes goes to 4 however not to 5, another slight improvement for sure.
While it is better it is not jab and start, I can't help feeling I'm missing something somewhere but I really am at the point where I don't know what to try next.
Anyone have a silver bullet for me?
Just because its said don't make it so

98fxstc

SSB 400CCA  - good battery  :up:

that's all I got

Hilly13

Just because its said don't make it so

Hilly13

HTT pariah I must be, just cricket's as friend's  :slap:
Just because its said don't make it so

98fxstc

Have a look with a borescope to see if there is anything untoward going on.
Will get plenty of suggestions then   :teeth:

Hilly13

Quote from: 98fxstc on June 13, 2019, 10:45:53 PM
Have a look with a borescope to see if there is anything untoward going on.
Will get plenty of suggestions then   :teeth:

Nearly spat beer on me phone haha
Just because its said don't make it so