Don't think I'm loving lithium

[Rockout Rocker Products]

A little history....

New twin power lithium about.... I dunno.... 9 months ago? No issues, bike always starts fine. Sometimes I leave it on the tender, sometimes not. I'm certainly not religious about it.

Over the Christmas holidays I put in a Baker DD7.... bike was off the tender, sitting for about 2 weeks, and probably 3 more before that. OK, my bad I know. So after finishing the Baker install, the bike started OK, cranked a bit slower than usual but OK. Took about a 10 mile test ride & parked it again.

Today the bike got a well earned bath, hosed everything with a flood of water like I always do. While blowing it off with a leaf blower all went dead (I had had the radio on). Rut row. To make matters worse the alarm siren was going off & nothing I could do would stop it. I pulled fuses, relays, everything, it was like the Energizer bunny  Finally I got it to stop & pulled the plug from the siren.

So I figure at this point I blew water into somewhere I shouldn't have. Outer fairing off, unplug, plug, unplug, plug, blow with air, on & on.... nothing. I did notice that the LED on the gauge flashed VINER or something like that once. Got out my volt meter & checked the battery.... 5.6 volts.  So I put the tender on it... probably not more than 1 amp or so. It's one of those NOCO Genius models that has a lithium setting. Let it sit for maybe 15 minutes & tried again.... bike started up! Rode it back into the garage & parked it. Removed the tender & checked the battery voltage... 12.6V.

So now I don't trust the thing.... I don't like the ON/OFF nature of it. May be another Yuasa in my future. 

[kd]

I know you must have checked but it sounds like symptoms of a poor battery cable connection.

[Hossamania]

Did you measure voltage at the battery, or thru the tender plug? I agree with kd, it does have the symptom of a loose battery connection.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

I know you must have checked but it sounds like symptoms of a poor battery cable connection.

Did you measure voltage at the battery, or thru the tender plug? I agree with kd, it does have the symptom of a loose battery connection.

I measured it at the fusebox and the tender lead. It was getting late & I was just happy to get the beast into the garage before the rain starts, I'm going to dig deeper tomorrow.

[doctorevil]

Rocket i talked to battery electrical engineer at sema about lithium batteries for harleys. He explained to me the harley stator produces a bad ac ripple effect inherit by design. the ripple effect causes the battery to overheat because the rectifier cannot shunt the dc voltage properly. this causes the cathode anode to prematurely oxidize.

[doctorevil]

He also explained this is why lithium batterys are not to be used in airplanes with magnetos.

[wfolarry]

I bought an Antigravity battery at the PRI show. This new design is to prevent things from happening like you described. I won't know if it works for a few months though. It's snowing here. 
https://shop.antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/restart-oem/atx20-rs/

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Yeah, I haven't gotten things apart yet to check cables but I think it's just a lithium thing. If I had thought clearly.... I had an Antigravity jump starter in the trunk & their pigtail lead hooked up to the battery, could have jumped it easily.

Just odd to have all or nothing instead of the slow march to click.... click....click.

[kd]

I bought an Antigravity battery at the PRI show. This new design is to prevent things from happening like you described. I won't know if it works for a few months though. It's snowing here. 
https://shop.antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/restart-oem/atx20-rs/

Larry, I always stop for a chat with Scott (president) at SEMA.  I was going to opt in myself but I think I'll wait for the results on the version with the remote control jump start feature.  IMO Antigravity is possibly the leader in lithium batteries for use in Harley big twins and performance applications.  I have been following development  by discussing it with Scott each year over the last 5 or 6 years.  We have exchanged lots of ideas.  They have overcome most if not all of the issues plaguing their use in our world. In my experience, their warranty and service is superb.  This new jump start version overcomes the previous problems of parasitic discharge from security systems and Lojac anti theft devices by preventing full discharge if left unattended for extended periods. As you know, a typical problem with lithium batteries is trying to rescue them after running flat.  It will kill a high dollar lithium battery and render it useless.

[tmwmoose]

Because of my health my Twin Power has sat dormant  for 5 months. I put it on the battery charger @ 12.2 and walked away not expecting anything . Well I came back and it shows a full charge hmmm OK I'll give it a try and spin the motor over it did surprised me!

[kd]

Because of my health my Twin Power has sat dormant  for 5 months. I put it on the battery charger @ 12.2 and walked away not expecting anything . Well I came back and it shows a full charge hmmm OK I'll give it a try and spin the motor over it did surprised me!

Do you have security or Lojac tracking?

[Ohio HD]

Yeah, I haven't gotten things apart yet to check cables but I think it's just a lithium thing. If I had thought clearly.... I had an Antigravity jump starter in the trunk & their pigtail lead hooked up to the battery, could have jumped it easily.

Just odd to have all or nothing instead of the slow march to click.... click....click.

As Larry mentioned a minute ago in his domain, travel limiters are a big asset in a motor cranking over. I run them in my 124", use a standard AGM OEM rated battery, it fires off every time, hot or cold. I do use a tender this time of the year when I'm not riding. Not saying there isn't benefit to a lithium, just that I don't have the need.

Limiters will also be in my 117" when I get to it.

[Deye76]

The Battery Tender LI battery I have comes with a battery management system, what that is supposed to do is protect the battery from operating outside it's safe operating area, & monitoring it's state. It's supposed to protect from overcharging, over discharge, over current, short circuit, high or low temperature, non active mode self discharging. If any of these things occur the battery shuts down to prevent damage to the battery. To activate the battery, press the button on the pig tail for the charger/maintainer. It's 480CCA, spins my 113" with ease. My routine, no matter if it's a LI or a AGM when I pull into the garage I plug the tender in. If it rains for a month, battery should be ready to go.

[No Cents]

  you guys made me go out to the barn and check my lithium battery again. I put the maintainer on it and it took less than 10 seconds for it to say it was fully charged. 
  My bike had sat for three solid weeks, but I was finally able to get it out four days ago when it hit 60* around here. So I decided to ride it into town to run some errands I needed to do. I maybe put a total of 20 miles on it. I made four different stops and it fired up each time like the plugs were out of it. So far with two seasons on my lithium battery...I have zero complaints.
   

[Rockout Rocker Products]

OK,  took the bike off the tender after overnight charge. Had it on acc for a couple of hours playing the radio while I detailed things. Checked the voltage (acc still on)... 12.88v.
It's a lithium thing. 

[kd]

  you guys made me go out to the barn and check my lithium battery again. I put the maintainer on it and it took less than 10 seconds for it to say it was fully charged. 
  My bike had sat for three solid weeks, but I was finally able to get it out four days ago when it hit 60* around here. So I decided to ride it into town to run some errands I needed to do. I maybe put a total of 20 miles on it. I made four different stops and it fired up each time like the plugs were out of it. So far with two seasons on my lithium battery...I have zero complaints.
   

Do you have a security system Ray?

[Deye76]

" My bike had sat for three solid weeks,"

Why would you let it sit without a maintainer on it?  Even if my garage was heated continuously, I'd have a tender on it.         

[tmwmoose]

Because of my health my Twin Power has sat dormant  for 5 months. I put it on the battery charger @ 12.2 and walked away not expecting anything . Well I came back and it shows a full charge hmmm OK I'll give it a try and spin the motor over it did surprised me!

Do you have security or Lojac tracking?

No it does not






No it does not

[kd]

Because of my health my Twin Power has sat dormant  for 5 months. I put it on the battery charger @ 12.2 and walked away not expecting anything . Well I came back and it shows a full charge hmmm OK I'll give it a try and spin the motor over it did surprised me!

Do you have security or Lojac tracking?



No it does not

Scott told me that the reason they took so long coming to market with a battery they would actually recommend for the big twin touring platform is that many of them had these devices causing parasitic drain and when they were not ridden often enough to combat the discharge rate there were problems. They felt they would get a bad name for their product and it wasn't worth the trouble.  The new family of Jump Starts solve this problem.

[IronMike113]

My lithium has gone dead,because I didn't put the charger on it while out of town,I also have a security system,and a amp installed, The old AGM battery seemed to hold up a lot better with out the tender,and this was first hand Experience,not something I read about,,,,,,,,,

[No Cents]

  kd...yes it has the factory security system on it.
It's got that little red light on the dash that flashes every few seconds.

[boooby1744]

I have the Optimate 4s, throw it on every 4 weeks.

[jmorton10]

I have a lithium batt in my 124" RK.  I have the parasitic factory alarm.

I use a dedicated lithium charger/tender on it every few weeks (especially in weather like we are having right now.  It was 12° here this morning)

I'm not sure how long I've had it but I think this is year 4 & it still starts my 124 before I can get my thumb off the button.

~John

[PoorUB]

Well, great! It has been maybe a month since my 2016 Limited was on the battery tender so last night I plugged it in when I left the garage. I never looked at it until today and it is just blinking red, not charging. The security light on the dash was still blinking. but the tender never fired up. I checked battery voltage with my Fluke meter and zip-zero-nadda, so it is probably dead. I hooked up a automatic charger, 2 amp max and it wouldn't fire up either so I hooked a second battery in parallel for a few minutes and got the charger to run. It has been on for a couple hours and I just checked, but it don't look good. If it don't come out of it, I probably won't trust this one after this. Even if it does charge I think it is time for a Yuasa. I'm not sold on the Lithium battery either, at least not for the price.

[ecir50]

My twin power that I bought after reading post here didn't last me a few months. Bike never sat up just went out to ride one day and it was 0 volts wtf. Went to autozone and picked a agm like used in past. Surprisingly never had a problem with a autozone battery.

[turboprop]

Regardless of brand, if these batteries are dead if they ever drop below 10 VDC. I too killed a Twin Power, but it was my own fault. I keep the bike with the replacement Twin Power on a maintainer when its not being ridden. Has lasted over a year. Another of my bikes has one of the new Anti-Gravity batteries with the jump start feature. The partitioning this new battery with prevent it from ear dropping below 10 VDC and killing itself. To test the theory, with he blessing of the manufacturer, I left the lights on until they went out. Then simply hit the jump start button and the bike fired right up. After a short forty five minutes ride it was back to a full charge.

Bottom line these batteries are different and require different handling, but the learning curve is pretty short (and simple). Just keep it on a maintainer when its parked. Too easy.

[Deye76]

"Just keep it on a maintainer when its parked. Too easy."

And if you want your AGM to last more than 2 years, do the same.

[PoorUB]

I have three motorcycles and one tender. I could buy more, but even in the winter my bikes get moved around  the shop when I  do projects so the tender gets unhooked often. I move it from bike to bike and my Limited was on it less than a month ago. Pretty sure it was just time for the battery to die, I don't think I killed it.

I checked it this AM, it's toast. On the charger for 12 hours, checked with a volt meter and nothing.

[No Cents]

I have three motorcycles and one tender. I could buy more, but even in the winter my bikes get moved around  the shop when I  do projects so the tender gets unhooked often. I move it from bike to bike and my Limited was on it less than a month ago. Pretty sure it was just time for the battery to die, I don't think I killed it.

I checked it this AM, it's toast. On the charger for 12 hours, checked with a volt meter and nothing.

  what kind of battery was it...a lithium or an AGM type?

[PoorUB]

Harley AGM.

[No Cents]

My twin power that I bought after reading post here didn't last me a few months. Bike never sat up just went out to ride one day and it was 0 volts wtf. Went to autozone and picked a agm like used in past. Surprisingly never had a problem with a autozone battery.

   did you contact Twin Power about the battery only lasting a few months?
I would think that it would fall into a warranty issue. They might just replace the battery for you. 

[ecir50]

read in a post in one of the threads here that this was not all that easy, so no just wrote it off. The only benefit to a lithium is the weight in my opinion but waking up to a 0 volt battery doesn't justify having one imho.

[No Cents]

  it just seems your lithium Twin Power battery went bad way too quick. 
I would have contacted them and let them know your battery only lasted a few months. Be lithium or agm...no battery should go bad that fast unless it had a reason to or was defective from the start.
  Did you have a specific lithium maintainer for it?

[mrmike]

Bottom line these batteries are different and require different handling, but the learning curve is pretty short (and simple). Just keep it on a maintainer when its parked. Too easy.


for a second there I thought I was screwing up leaving the tender on all the time.

Mike

[ecir50]

  it just seems your lithium Twin Power battery went bad way too quick. 
I would have contacted them and let them know your battery only lasted a few months. Be lithium or agm...no battery should go bad that fast unless it had a reason to or was defective from the start.
  Did you have a specific lithium maintainer for it?

Yes to your question. If purchase locally I would have been less of  a hassle, just not worth my time to fight a company that, and this is hearsay, is going to argue the reason the battery died. My bike doesn't have any parasitic drain, computer or alarm system. Charging system is up to par.

[No Cents]

   I'm sorry to hear about your experience with the Twin Power battery. That is the brand I'm running.
I guess I have been lucky so far with mine. When I bought it new I contacted Twin Power and I asked them what maintainer they suggested for it. I knew going in that my old battery tender for my AGM batteries was not the recommended way to put a charge into a lithium battery.  I bought the correct maintainer and I put it on the battery when it was new so it was up to a full charge before installing it. I'm guilty of not putting the maintainer on mine as much as I probably should. So far with the occasional charge, and all has been good.

[HD/Wrench]

I went through 3 twin power and gave up in my own bike . I would forget to put it on the charger when I parked it sat for 3 weeks or so stone dead . Charge it up once it worked but would go dead the others just failed flat out while being left on the charger..  I am done with the twin power brand for these batterys . yes they warrantied them for me so I was not out money just the issue they would fail was enough for me

[No Cents]

    Steve...did Twin Power give you a reason why you had three batteries go bad?
I'm just curious as to what reason they might of gave you. This has me a little scared now.
   This is the first time I have ever heard about any issues with the Twin Power lithium batteries. I guess I need to pay closer attention to mine.

[masstch]

I haven't jumped on the Lithium wagon yet, but I have been thinking about it. i usually run the HD AGM or equivalent from Deka, usually they last a few years. The original on my '01 RK lasted 9-1/2 years! My most recent HD on the Ultra crapped out last month; I thought about Lithium again, but it seems like the tech isn't quite there, yet. I Have the factory security on the Ultra, nothing on the RK. The troubling bit of the thought process on lithium... these 'state-of-the-art' uber-expensive batteries apparently have to be coddled like a baby in order to not crap out(!).
I mean, seriously...if you DON'T put it on a tender for three weeks it could destroy it? OR (if it has the more sophisticated electronics in it) it will protect itself by self-disconnecting to protect the battery from slow death.... so the battery is safe, but the bike is no longer protected because the security is now disabled? I may have that wrong, please inform me. I often plug in the tender...but not 'every time I park the bike'. Bikes get moved, dangling cords are in the way...
If I'm *required* to have it plugged in all the time, I'd rather have a much more forgiving AGM. I have literally cranked up the RK after its sitting without a tender for 5 months... and the battery didn't need to be replaced. The Ultra, six or eight weeks.

[Ohio HD]

Agree about the AGM, they are pretty forgiving.

When I moved from Arizona back to Ohio, my '09 Ultra had sat about three months in the Arizona heat, think June, July and August without a tender. When I was ready to ride the bike back, the battery was about gone, click, click, click. I jumped it from a car, took it down the street about four or five miles, then back. Shut it off. Restarted it a few times, it cranked right up. The battery was about a year old then, OEM. That was in 2011, I replaced the battery in march of 2015.

[cheech]

Makes no sense. Wonder why the motorcycle batteries are so crappy and needy as far as charge? I have one of those Milwaukee Fuel 18V 1/2 impacts and seems even with maybe use every 2 days or so then sitting in between it maintains 4 bars on the battery level indicator forever. Never on charger. Even seems to  only need a charge  every 3 months. Lithium batteries for the cordless tools have really revolutionized them.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

I think the difference is on bikes like mine with the security system there is a slow but constant drain.

[boooby1744]

I have a friend who has been using the li fe batteries for a while. He said the only way to get long life was to use a good charger/maintainer. I bit the big one and got the Optimate 4s,so far so good.

[PoorUB]

Makes no sense. Wonder why the motorcycle batteries are so crappy and needy as far as charge? I have one of those Milwaukee Fuel 18V 1/2 impacts and seems even with maybe use every 2 days or so then sitting in between it maintains 4 bars on the battery level indicator forever. Never on charger. Even seems to  only need a charge  every 3 months. Lithium batteries for the cordless tools have really revolutionized them.

Power tools have a relatively low drain compared to starting, plus, like the other post, many bikes have security which drains the battery slowly. Lithium doesn't like to be run low. Power tool batteries have circuits in them to shut them off when they get low to avoid damaging them. AGM batteries can handle getting run down, to a point.

I think lithium batteries have potential to be good batteries for motorcycles. I am not convinced they are ready quite yet and I don't like being someone's beta tester.

[smoserx1]

I bought some cell phone batteries once and one of then showed zero voltage.  It took several minutes on the charger to register but eventually came to life and charged up.  A computer tech buddy told me lithium batteries had a circuit to shut off when they reached a certain discharge (and that is what I am reading in this thread for the MC batteries too).  So why won't they come back to life?  I was thinking about trying one too but this thread has got me scared.  I measured my bike's parasitic draw once and it is very small (about 0.7 miliamps)  I have never used a maintenance charger and don't want to start now.  Don't use them on my cars and I know they have significant parasitic drain.  The Deka type AGM batteries are still pretty good IMO.  You can usually get three years out of one and not break the bank when replacement time comes.

[IronButt70]

My biggest concern with the current Li-ON technology is the fire hazard, especially when it comes to the heat from an air cooled engine. There was a video I saw in 2017 of several bikes that burned because of failed Li-ON batteries. Unfortunately I have not been able to find the link again. I would not be willing to risk a battery fire, no matter how remote a possibility that might be, just to save a few pounds of weight. JMHO.

[PoorUB]

I laugh at the weight reduction too. I can understand if you are building a canyon cruiser and spend a bunch of money on lighter wheels and such, but on a stock 900 pound touring bike loaded up for a couple weeks with mama on the back it seems ridiculous. Hey! I shaved off 5 pounds, it weighs 1245 pounds now!

[boooby1744]

I weighed the stock and the twin power on a postal scale, 15.2 pounds difference. My CCE aluminum top tree and longer fork tubes were 1.6 pounds  lighter. I can now eat all the pie I want...

[PoorUB]

I weighed the stock and the twin power on a postal scale, 15.2 pounds difference. My CCE aluminum top tree and longer fork tubes were 1.6 pounds  lighter. I can now eat all the pie I want...

Ok, so 15 pounds, my argument still holds. a drop in the bucket on a 900 pound bike plus rider, passenger and gear.

[Langwilliams]

I see them used a lot on custom builds that use efi since you can fit the battery and the ecm in the standard size battery box. When I had my V rod some of those guys ran them because the battery is at the highest point on the bike, right behind the steering head...they said since it was a 10 lb saving on that point it was worth doing but with the battery under the seat it doesn't mean anything....unless you're stripping everything down an going with CF wheels an everything. Somewhere I was reading on performance baggers with CF wheels, inverted forks an minimum everything. I imagine a really good rider that rides aggressively would notice a 100 pound drop....Me, I would feel the difference parking an backing but probably not on the road.

[tomcat64]

I weighed the stock and the twin power on a postal scale, 15.2 pounds difference. My CCE aluminum top tree and longer fork tubes were 1.6 pounds  lighter. I can now eat all the pie I want...

Ok, so 15 pounds, my argument still holds. a drop in the bucket on a 900 pound bike plus rider, passenger and gear.

I'm with you UB, plus I have had incredible luck with the HD AMG batteries.. 

[Moparnut72]

I just watched a Myth Busters Jr a couple of days ago. The kids were trying to prove that lithium batteries were a fire hazard. They were able to show that heat could set them on fire as well as extreme pressure. They were able to set a compactor garbage truck on fire with them. My next battery will be an AGM for increased starting amperage. My bike doesn't exactly spin right over with the factory battery. When it is in the 30's it may not spin over at all on the first try.
kk

[Deye76]

"The kids were trying to prove that lithium batteries were a fire hazard."

Lithium Ion, or Lithium Iron?

[masstch]

"The kids were trying to prove that lithium batteries were a fire hazard."

Lithium Ion, or Lithium Iron?

Or Lithium-Polymer?? You can trigger immolation mode in a Li-Po with the wrong type of charger

[u4hd2]

H-D now has Lithium LiFe batteries. The one for 04-later Touring weighs 4.72 lbs at $299.95

[Rockout Rocker Products]

They have new state of the art 75-140 gear oil too. Are they jumping off the Syn-3 express?

[smoserx1]

H-D now has Lithium LiFe batteries. The one for 04-later Touring weighs 4.72 lbs at $299.95

Why is this battery for 04-19 models when the AGM version is for 97-19 models?

[kd]

Charging system? 

[boooby1744]

"The kids were trying to prove that lithium batteries were a fire hazard."

Lithium Ion, or Lithium Iron?

Or Lithium-Polymer?? You can trigger immolation mode in a Li-Po with the wrong type of charger

I think the charger makes the difference

[smoserx1]

Charging system? 

I think you are right.  The PN for the regulator changed in 04.  Looks like the stators were still single phase until 06 (at least the microfiche illustration shows 2 wires).  The H-D lithium looks like a smaller battery and they give you a spacer box.  Guess I will stick with what I got.

[Deye76]

LOL, I'm running a lithium iRon with a OE 1992 charging system. 2+ years, now.

[Ohio HD]

NEXT!


https://www.harley-davidson.com/store/lithium-life-8ah-battery

[Rusticwater]

NEXT!


https://www.harley-davidson.com/store/lithium-life-8ah-battery

Saw that, I wonder who makes it? I read the installation sheet and was quite surprised over how the rest voltage-state of charge values vary quite a bit from the AGM batteries.

[No Cents]

   Lately it has been cold around here. Today I think it dipped down to -5* without the wind chill factored in.
I put the lithium maintainer on the battery a few days ago and left it hooked up to see how it would do with these cold days and even colder nights were having.
   I bundled my butt up and went out to my unheated/ un-insulated metal pole barn....buuuurrr it was cold in there. I turn the ignition on to the bike and as soon as I heard the fuel pump kick off I hit the start button. It fired the bike up instantly like the plugs were out of it.   
   My winter time lithium battery report.   

[jam65]

Ray, no short runs during the winter time.

[mrmike]

That's right! Now get your ass out there and put at least 50 miles on it.

You know to burn off the condensation.

You did say you bundled up. 

Mike

[No Cents]

   too much snow on the roads today for me...now they are all salt covered. 

[wfolarry]

   Lately it has been cold around here. Today I think it dipped down to -5* without the wind chill factored in.
I put the lithium maintainer on the battery a few days ago and left it hooked up to see how it would do with these cold days and even colder nights were having.
   I bundled my butt up and went out to my unheated/ un-insulated metal pole barn....buuuurrr it was cold in there. I turn the ignition on to the bike and as soon as I heard the fuel pump kick off I hit the start button. It fired the bike up instantly like the plugs were out of it.   
   My winter time lithium battery report.   

I think it was the travel limiters that did that. 

[No Cents]

  I have no travel limiters in the lifters. I took them out last year.

[1workinman]

  I have no travel limiters in the lifters. I took them out last year.

After all of this I went out and plugged in the charger on my Street Glide and it went to fully charged . I had no problems with my battery so unless it gives me trouble I put one in my Road glide if it needs one when I get it home . Ray I going to give the limiters a try one of these days as I don't see a down side from what I read .I don't know exactly how may miles is on the motor in the Street Glide but I don't intend on running the lifters till failure, not sure what the life on the lifters are but I just going to change them and call that good enough