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Let’s talk about the NEW Advanced Lithium iron phosphate batteries

Started by Iron horse, February 18, 2019, 06:59:43 AM

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turboprop

Quote from: Iron horse on February 18, 2019, 06:59:43 AM
Harley is now selling a New battery called the  lithium life battery.
It's on their site as a new arrival at $250 bucks . And it's so new that it's not in any 2019 bikes .
This New  lithium Fe  is not like the older  lithium ion battery it's 80% lighter , I mean crazy light ! And it also  requires a new type of charger . So at this point there's very little info out there and we need the pros and cons on this new type of  lithium battery  .
From a  battery guru 

My  question is can this battery be jump like a AGM battery ?

Would really like to get this discussion back on track with the OP's question. Based on my experience these batteries can be jumped same as any other battery. Does anyone have any other experience with jumping a lithium battery?
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

wfolarry

I've always connected battery to battery when jumping a lithium battery. Hooking up a charger to a dead battery won't do anything. Battery to battery I've brought a few back from the dead. All my power tools the same thing. If it's dead & you put it in the charger nothing. Hook a battery to it & get some juice back in it then put it in the charger. Have done it more than once to the same battery.

Deye76

"Does anyone have any other experience with jumping a lithium battery?"
Not from a car, I carry a Type S jumper like this:    https://slickdeals.net/f/12260143-costco-jump-starter-10000-mah-manufacturer-discount-49-99
in my saddle bag, have jumped LI and AGM, cars & bikes. with it. 
East Tenn.<br /> 2020 Lowrider S Touring, 2014 CVO RK,  1992 FXRP

turboprop

Quote from: Deye76 on February 19, 2019, 04:32:23 PM
"Does anyone have any other experience with jumping a lithium battery?"
Not from a car, I carry a Type S jumper like this:    https://slickdeals.net/f/12260143-costco-jump-starter-10000-mah-manufacturer-discount-49-99
in my saddle bag, have jumped LI and AGM, cars & bikes. with it.

Me too. I think there is way too much hyperbole about these batteries. Everyone has something to say, but very few have actually done anything. 
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

mrmike

The way I look at it your not jump starting the battery your jump starting the motor, the installed battery is dead and your skipping it with a live one. If anything the dead battery will make the live one work harder because it is also pulling juice.

Though I admit I'm no Electrical Engineer I can't see how you can harm a dead Li Ion battery with a jump battery that is only connected for the time it takes to start the bike. Since all that power is going into the starting system not the dead battery.

Any way it's all 12vdc in the end it's not like a Li Ion battery is supplying some kind of metric electricity that's incompatible.

Plus in this day and lawsuit age there would be a warning label, no?

This is exactly the type of question Max was good for because unlike me he knows what he's talking about.

BTW I am running a Twin Power Li Ion 625 cca in my bike and also have the Anti Gravity jump kit.

Mike
I'm not leaving til I have a good time

smoserx1

QuoteSince all that power is going into the starting system not the dead battery.

Hate do disagree but the host battery will attempt to charge the discharged battery when the jumper cables are connected.  When I first started riding "little" motorcycles with small batteries,  mechanics discouraged folks from jumping bikes from cars because of the size difference of the batteries.  The big car battery could charge the little bike battery fast enough to overheat and damage it.  That shouldn't be a problem today with a Harley battery because they are fairly big, but any discharged battery will draw current from the host battery until the voltages of the batteries equalize.  A severely discharged battery (or one that is shorted internally) can draw enough current from the host battery to keep the vehicle from starting  even with a jump.

mrmike

Your not disagreeing I said that the dead battery will also be pulling juice, that said the minute you hit the starter the flow will be away from the dead battery.

As far as the dead battery pulling so much juice that you can't get the jump, your right I've experienced it with four wheelers.

I find that it helps to negate that by connecting the jump to the chassis ground and not the battery ground.

Don't ask me why but it does.

Mike
I'm not leaving til I have a good time

PoorUB

IMO, you can hook any 12 volt battery to any other 12 volt battery and it will not harm either one, no matter the size of either. The internal resistance of the smaller battery will only take so much current flow and unless you raise the voltage pushing the current it will peak out at a fairly low level. The big thing about jump starting a bike with a small 12 volt battery was to not start the vehicle you are using to jump start as the charging system will ramp up to 14 volts and possible harm the smaller battery by pushing too many amps into it.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

smoserx1


Iron horse

The website for Optimate battery chargers has a very good video on charging  lithium iron batteries to watch .
Just click on the Optimate Lithium 4s and you will find it . Optimate1.com
It might have an explanation to why you shouldn't jump this type of battery .

IronButt70

Just put a new 500 CCA AGM battery in my ride. No lithium for me for at least 2 years. Maybe by then all the mystery, questions, hype,  whatever about lithium will have been answered.  :chop:
No one else put you on the road you're on. It's your own asphalt.

Moparnut72

I just got my 500 CCA battery in my bike yesterday. I couldn't wait to see how it is going to work. The bike has been sitting for a couple of weeks due to weather and some cold weather for us in the teens. It cranked right over. With the OEM battery it probably would have stopped on the first couple of compression strokes. I am happy, $125 well spent. I think I am now ready for the riding season, ThrottleX battery, new Dunlop American Elite rear tire, Rockouts, all fluids changed and a new LRS recurve windshield.
kk
If you find yourself in a fair fight,
You didn't prepare properly.

trex

I have a shorai in my bike and use the Battery tender on it once in a while and it has been good for couple years so far

biggzed

IMO all the mystery, questions and hype are fabricated on the web from people that don't have experience with the product. People that actually have the product have nothing but good things to say about them. As one member here likes to say: You have to separate the signal from the noise.

My AGM is approaching the end of its' service life. One of the 4 post lithiums is going in. I'll be sure to post here if there are any issues.

Zach

Quote from: IronButt70 on February 20, 2019, 07:34:13 AM
Just put a new 500 CCA AGM battery in my ride. No lithium for me for at least 2 years. Maybe by then all the mystery, questions, hype,  whatever about lithium will have been answered.  :chop:

Hossamania

As far as jump starting a lithium battery, any type, I dont think there should be any problem doing it in the traditional way. If I'm wrong, someone please let me know.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

rhuff

Quote from: IronButt70 on February 20, 2019, 07:34:13 AM
Just put a new 500 CCA AGM battery in my ride. No lithium for me for at least 2 years. Maybe by then all the mystery, questions, hype,  whatever about lithium will have been answered.  :chop:

They've been used for years in motorcycles.  Not much left to be answered or sorted out.

FurryOne

Quote from: Iron horse on February 18, 2019, 06:17:37 PM
I was just on the Shorai website and they do have some very good info for this type of battery in FAQs , but nothing on jumping it .
If you would like to read it , www.shoraipower.com

You mean this piece of crap?... that requires their own special charger?... brand new, it actually stalled my starter trying to crank my 103 in the Summer after being on it's charger!  I took it out and put a Yuasa in and left the Shorai on a shelf.  Search Youtube for Short...i

IronButt70

Quote from: rhuff on February 21, 2019, 09:34:12 PM
Quote from: IronButt70 on February 20, 2019, 07:34:13 AM
Just put a new 500 CCA AGM battery in my ride. No lithium for me for at least 2 years. Maybe by then all the mystery, questions, hype,  whatever about lithium will have been answered.  :chop:

They've been used for years in motorcycles.  Not much left to be answered or sorted out.
Except the bikes that have burned from fires started by lithium batteries.
No one else put you on the road you're on. It's your own asphalt.

Deye76

Quote from: FurryOne on February 22, 2019, 03:09:26 PM
Quote from: Iron horse on February 18, 2019, 06:17:37 PM
I was just on the Shorai website and they do have some very good info for this type of battery in FAQs , but nothing on jumping it .
If you would like to read it , www.shoraipower.com

You mean this piece of crap?... that requires their own special charger?... brand new, it actually stalled my starter trying to crank my 103 in the Summer after being on it's charger!  I took it out and put a Yuasa in and left the Shorai on a shelf.  Search Youtube for Short...i

I remember when we went from unscrewing caps and adding water to a battery 4 or 5 times on a trip out west, to sealed batteries, guys were saying, no way, junk.  I think we should go back to points ign. too. :hyst:
East Tenn.<br /> 2020 Lowrider S Touring, 2014 CVO RK,  1992 FXRP

rhuff

Quote from: IronButt70 on February 22, 2019, 03:36:40 PM
Quote from: rhuff on February 21, 2019, 09:34:12 PM
Quote from: IronButt70 on February 20, 2019, 07:34:13 AM
Just put a new 500 CCA AGM battery in my ride. No lithium for me for at least 2 years. Maybe by then all the mystery, questions, hype,  whatever about lithium will have been answered.  :chop:

They've been used for years in motorcycles.  Not much left to be answered or sorted out.
Except the bikes that have burned from fires started by lithium batteries.

Bikes have burned from "conventional" batteries as well.  And commercial planes have also fallen from the sky. 

tdrglide

I've been following this cuz I am needing a new battery soon. Couple things... As far as jumping a dead Li battery, why not. What do you have to lose. It's already dead. Don't think I would do it from my bike as the donor tho.

I was looking at the antigravity batteries with re-start. Specifically the one for touring models. 880cca no less. And down at the bottom of their web page it says the re-start feature not recommended for over 103 cu in. or high compression. Wtf. That lets most of us out. :crook: Doesn't make any sense to me.
Also from the Shorai battery site; says down at the bottom of their page, not for over 110 cu in. Where did that number come from?

Nastytls

Found this on earthxbatteries.com:

"Can I jump a small motorcycle sized lithium battery from an automobile?"

"NO. It is not a good idea to "jump" a motorsport battery from a car or truck battery.  It is much better to re-charge it if at all possible. On the top of each battery is a label that will specify the maximum amount of charging amps to use and a "jump" start from an automobile is about 150X more amperage than maximum amperage recommended, if not more. This can cause the cells to rupture and even catch on fire. This is true for all batteries, lithium or lead acid, if you must jump start the battery, do it from a like sized battery. A lead acid is much more tolerant than a lithium battery as they absorb the charge completely different.  It is perfectly fine to jump start the EarthX battery from another motorcycle sized battery or use a jump pack."

Nastytls

Quote from: rhuff on February 22, 2019, 09:54:10 PM
Quote from: IronButt70 on February 22, 2019, 03:36:40 PM
Quote from: rhuff on February 21, 2019, 09:34:12 PM
Quote from: IronButt70 on February 20, 2019, 07:34:13 AM
Just put a new 500 CCA AGM battery in my ride. No lithium for me for at least 2 years. Maybe by then all the mystery, questions, hype,  whatever about lithium will have been answered.  :chop:

They've been used for years in motorcycles.  Not much left to be answered or sorted out.
Except the bikes that have burned from fires started by lithium batteries.

Bikes have burned from "conventional" batteries as well.  And commercial planes have also fallen from the sky.

Bingo!

If you think about it, it's not really surprising that some Harley people are afraid of new Tech, they are after all, riding on 100 yr old tech. :SM:

smoserx1

Quote"Can I jump a small motorcycle sized lithium battery from an automobile?"

"NO. It is not a good idea to "jump" a motorsport battery from a car or truck battery.  It is much better to re-charge it if at all possible. On the top of each battery is a label that will specify the maximum amount of charging amps to use and a "jump" start from an automobile is about 150X more amperage than maximum amperage recommended, if not more. This can cause the cells to rupture and even catch on fire. This is true for all batteries, lithium or lead acid, if you must jump start the battery, do it from a like sized battery. A lead acid is much more tolerant than a lithium battery as they absorb the charge completely different.  It is perfectly fine to jump start the EarthX battery from another motorcycle sized battery or use a jump pack."

It's funny how parts of this echo what that Honda mechanic told me some 50 years ago.  The truth is the more discharged the "dead" battery is the more current it will draw from the host (battery or charger, either one), especially at first.  A little battery can heat up quicker because it has less internal mass.  A big car type battery has no way of regulating the current it can supply, unlike a trickle, maintenance or other low amperage charger.  This is just plain electricity 101.  Common sense seems to dictate if you have to jump or charge a very run down smaller battery from a large source (battery or charger) that you connect for a short time and disconnect, maybe doing this several times at first while feeling how warn the smaller battery gets.  It is really no different than the concept of a duty cycle when welding or doing any energy intensive activity.  Just don't hook 'em up and walk away, that is what maintenance/trickle chargers are for.

Hossamania

Here in the frozen tundra, we learn how to jump start dead batteries before we get to third grade. Every type of vehicles has been jump started by every other type of vehicle, often improperly, but the job gets done, very few injuries, fewer fires.
When the battery is dead, and you've got to go, you use whatever is available.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.