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EVO base gaskets...Is it OK to only replace the gasket?

Started by SixShooter14, October 14, 2019, 09:42:15 PM

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SixShooter14

So I have a moderately slow leak from the rear base gasket.

I'm planning on tearing the top off this winter and replacing. Is it OK to just swap out the gasket? Or do I need to have the surfaces 'trued'?



PS. I saw that James Gaskets has a 'Top End Gasket Set'....Is that all I'd need to pull the top end off to replace the base gaskets and reassemble?

Thanks
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

92flhtcu

That would be the budget way to do it, however those base gaskets may be stuck to the jugs pretty darn good. I've always had a machine shop true them when I'm that far into it
Need a bigger garage

rigidthumper

I'd use this instead of HD's horrible paper ones.
I'd also use a mandrel & lathe to true/clean the gasket surfaces.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

SixShooter14

Thanks guys, that's pretty much what I was thinking.
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

thumper 823

It all can become a slippery slope and I fell off the edge years ago.
Axtell sells Nodular Iron cylinders and they are so solid they just dont move. (like AL ones will)
The beauty of them is they do not need a gasket at all.
A slight bead of yamma bond or the like and they will not ever leak.
Every Hp you find will cost some money and the devil is in the details.
The nodular cylinders can be shimmed for deck ht and you can use shims instead of standard gaskets.
I needed 0.006 and Cometic will make you anything you want to get your squish band where it should be.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

SixShooter14

October 15, 2019, 07:51:18 AM #5 Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 08:00:18 AM by SixShooter14
Quote from: thumper 823 on October 15, 2019, 07:31:21 AM
It all can become a slippery slope and I fell off the edge years ago.
Axtell sells Nodular Iron cylinders and they are so solid they just dont move. (like AL ones will)
The beauty of them is they do not need a gasket at all.
A slight bead of yamma bond or the like and they will not ever leak.
Every Hp you find will cost some money and the devil is in the details.
The nodular cylinders can be shimmed for deck ht and you can use shims instead of standard gaskets.
I needed 0.006 and Cometic will make you anything you want to get your squish band where it should be.
Haha. Thanks, but I'm not looking for more HP  :embarrassed: just hoping to eliminate a leak (and prevent a future one)

Edit: Dammit, now you've got me looking at head porters and cylinder/piston upgrades  :banghead:
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

TexNorth

I do have a question about the practice of truing up the base of the cylinder.   In all seriousness, I know that cylinders should be bored and even honed (if using a rigid type hone) while having torque plates to make certain they are true when under compression (thereby simulating the conditions in the bike).   If you machine the base, would it not change that?


rigidthumper

Truing (and gasket residue removal) is typically before the cylinder goes into the torque plate.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

thumper 823

Quote from: rigidthumper on October 15, 2019, 08:47:08 AM
Truing (and gasket residue removal) is typically before the cylinder goes into the torque plate.

Not sure I understand your Q.- 
Truing the cylinders is one procedure and decking the base area where the cyl sits by whatever means you choose will not affect the bore in the cylinder.

The EVO has two problems going and that is the area around the stud will start to get proud, plus the cylinder being AL will shuffle.
The are numerous ways to take care of the pulled area around the stud.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

Pete_Vit

Hey Six when mine started when I was due for a top end freshen up so I did it all, about 109,000, I'm not sure the miles on your new ride but I think you can get away with just getting a new base gasket, my jugs and base were fine,  I've been told the HD gaskets were suspect and prone to failure, I used the James Gasket set myself, I'm sure others have thier favorites, so far 10,000 miles on the freshen-up no leaks 
93 XLH1200 - 96 FXSTS - 2010 Ultra Glide Classic
www.facebook.com/harleypartsch

SixShooter14

Quote from: Pete_Vit on October 15, 2019, 11:28:54 AM
Hey Six when mine started when I was due for a top end freshen up so I did it all, about 109,000, I'm not sure the miles on your new ride but I think you can get away with just getting a new base gasket, my jugs and base were fine,  I've been told the HD gaskets were suspect and prone to failure, I used the James Gasket set myself, I'm sure others have thier favorites, so far 10,000 miles on the freshen-up no leaks
Thanks, Pete. As with any used rig that's 20+yrs old, I don't know much history. But it has about 53k miles. It already had the rather common base leak which doesn't leak much volume, but it's enough to make a mess on the bike and the concrete. So I figure, now that I have a garage, I might as well fix it this winter. Probably not until after Christmas when the weather really starts to get cold and wet. Hopefully I have a jack or lift by then.
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

Pete_Vit

Quote from: SixShooter14 on October 15, 2019, 11:54:55 AM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on October 15, 2019, 11:28:54 AM
Hey Six when mine started when I was due for a top end freshen up so I did it all, about 109,000, I'm not sure the miles on your new ride but I think you can get away with just getting a new base gasket, my jugs and base were fine,  I've been told the HD gaskets were suspect and prone to failure, I used the James Gasket set myself, I'm sure others have thier favorites, so far 10,000 miles on the freshen-up no leaks
Thanks, Pete. As with any used rig that's 20+yrs old, I don't know much history. But it has about 53k miles. It already had the rather common base leak which doesn't leak much volume, but it's enough to make a mess on the bike and the concrete. So I figure, now that I have a garage, I might as well fix it this winter. Probably not until after Christmas when the weather really starts to get cold and wet. Hopefully I have a jack or lift by then.
:up: - got me one of those plans too with the wife's Sporty, you've got plenty of friends here to help you out if you need...well he$$ you know that !  :up:
93 XLH1200 - 96 FXSTS - 2010 Ultra Glide Classic
www.facebook.com/harleypartsch

SixShooter14

Quote from: Pete_Vit on October 15, 2019, 12:37:48 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on October 15, 2019, 11:54:55 AM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on October 15, 2019, 11:28:54 AM
Hey Six when mine started when I was due for a top end freshen up so I did it all, about 109,000, I'm not sure the miles on your new ride but I think you can get away with just getting a new base gasket, my jugs and base were fine,  I've been told the HD gaskets were suspect and prone to failure, I used the James Gasket set myself, I'm sure others have thier favorites, so far 10,000 miles on the freshen-up no leaks
Thanks, Pete. As with any used rig that's 20+yrs old, I don't know much history. But it has about 53k miles. It already had the rather common base leak which doesn't leak much volume, but it's enough to make a mess on the bike and the concrete. So I figure, now that I have a garage, I might as well fix it this winter. Probably not until after Christmas when the weather really starts to get cold and wet. Hopefully I have a jack or lift by then.
:up: - got me one of those plans too with the wife's Sporty, you've got plenty of friends here to help you out if you need...well he$$ you know that !  :up:
haha, yup
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

Burnout

Quote from: TexNorth on October 15, 2019, 08:43:45 AM
I do have a question about the practice of truing up the base of the cylinder.   In all seriousness, I know that cylinders should be bored and even honed (if using a rigid type hone) while having torque plates to make certain they are true when under compression (thereby simulating the conditions in the bike).   If you machine the base, would it not change that?

Ring seal at the bottom of the cylinder is not as critical as at the top.
There is very little pressure at the bottom compared to the top.
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

david lee

how come evos had a problem with the crankcase studs and shovels didnt

Burnout

They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

thumper 823

Not only size but a shovel is just holding the cylinders on as they use head bolts.
They do not go all the way dwn into the case.
So the Evo is subject to a lot more stress in the stud area.

From the engineering point of view, studs are always better, but HD forgot to beef up the cylinder landing.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

twincamzz

When I installed base gaskets I also used a set of these "pigtails" in the cylinder oil return passage.
not all who wander are lost...

thumper 823

In reality, the studs should be replaced anyway as they have stretched and do not apply a clamping force, just a static hold.
If you do not understand,- picture the studs (or any fastener) as a rubber stud or bolt. When torqed to spec they are working.
If torqed to actual "yield" or just old they do not have any elasticity and become a static force.
This allows the head and cylinders to do the shuffle.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

Pete_Vit

Quote from: thumper 823 on October 16, 2019, 03:50:18 AM
In reality, the studs should be replaced anyway as they have stretched and do not apply a clamping force, just a static hold.
If you do not understand,- picture the studs (or any fastener) as a rubber stud or bolt. When torqed to spec they are working.
If torqed to actual "yield" or just old they do not have any elasticity and become a static force.
This allows the head and cylinders to do the shuffle.
:agree: and I did replace mine, but I've been flamed by so many for doing such, once I pulled one head bolt out and found the stud came with it, I figured it was apart, do it now just for the piece of mind, I may not have needed to but it's my ride  :wink:
93 XLH1200 - 96 FXSTS - 2010 Ultra Glide Classic
www.facebook.com/harleypartsch

SixShooter14

Quote from: thumper 823 on October 16, 2019, 03:50:18 AM
In reality, the studs should be replaced anyway as they have stretched and do not apply a clamping force, just a static hold.
If you do not understand,- picture the studs (or any fastener) as a rubber stud or bolt. When torqed to spec they are working.
If torqed to actual "yield" or just old they do not have any elasticity and become a static force.
This allows the head and cylinders to do the shuffle.
Same goes for any critical fastener. Once tightened down, they really should not be reused as the threads have already yielded.
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

Tollbooth

 Six. I'll be the bad guy and say it.
As you said, it's a small leak. Oil is cheap, let it go till something else goes wrong that requires a tear down. jmho.


SixShooter14

Quote from: Tollbooth on October 16, 2019, 07:49:49 AM
Six. I'll be the bad guy and say it.
As you said, it's a small leak. Oil is cheap, let it go till something else goes wrong that requires a tear down. jmho.
well, that's what I've been doing since December. I changed the fluids in May and have put on about 3k miles and it's down maybe a half quart...But I don't like parking over a piece of cardboard to catch the drips. It's just an annoyance.

It's definitely not a priority. But something I'd like to take care when the weather turns wet and cold in January. So I figured buy the top end gasket set and do it whenever I get bored this winter. I'd also like to get into the cam chest some time and see if the cam or bearing have been changed. I have no history with this bike, so I don't mind doing some exploration.
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

SixShooter14

'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i