Baker DD7 issues

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Continuing from the DD7 programming thread rather than to keep dragging it off topic.

My new DD7 has been KLANKY since installation. Both a KLANK into first and with every shift except into 7th, which is always silent. Also, on downshifting a firm shift is needed or it will grind a bit between gears. It's a little "notchy" on downshift.... as if a neutral is between each gear.  Today I took the clutch apart...

First thing I noticed is the fluid is black. This has never happened before, I guess I can write it off to the new MD gear? Magnet had some paste & small shards, nothing alarming.... again new stuff?

Clutch travel is .080-.083 which seems fine. With all the plates out and in neutral the clutch drum spins freely but...

Axial runout is .006"... radial is .003, is this normal? It also makes the chain tighter in some spots than others, and tension in general seems tighter than when I put it together (Baker manual adjuster).

None of the steel plates show any wear or warping, friction plates are like new & well within spec.

I notice all of the steel plates and the spring seat have a noticeable rounded side & sharp side from being stamped... does installation direction matter?

I was hoping to find a smoking gun here rather than I just got a bad tranny, but things are looking grim. 

[rredneckn2]

Primary fluid black?

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Primary fluid black?

Yep.
I did find the answer to plate direction. I have the assist & slip clutch, so naturally HD puts that info in the section of the manual for the clutch I don't have.
I did see that I had the spring in backwards. 

[rredneckn2]

Black primary fluid is not caused by a new main drive gear. Paste and a sliver or two is normal on the magnet. The fluid gets dirty from clutch plate wear. What lube is in the primary? I prefer amsoil 20/50 on any primary service (my preference) Did you check chain alignment during initial install? I only fill primary @32 ozs which is lower than the manual but is sufficient.  not trying to break you nads. I'm trying to help you as I have firsthand experience with the dd7. Rick

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Black primary fluid is not caused by a new main drive gear. Paste and a sliver or two is normal on the magnet. The fluid gets dirty from clutch plate wear. What lube is in the primary? I prefer amsoil 20/50 on any primary service (my preference) Did you check chain alignment during initial install? I only fill primary @32 ozs which is lower than the manual but is sufficient.  not trying to break you nads. I'm trying to help you as I have firsthand experience with the dd7. Rick

Fluid is Mobil 1 syn ATF. Been running it for thousands of miles & multiple changes, never been a problem.
Fluid was filled to the bottom of the clutch basket as always. Didn't check chain alignment... I will.

[jrgreene1968]

It's not a energy one clutch is it?

[Rockout Rocker Products]

It's not a energy one clutch is it?

Nope, stock HD "assist and slip" found on the Rushmore CVO's and Low models.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Soooo.... all back together. New fluid, everything checked..... pretty much the same 

Back to the shop, drop the pepto & replace with Bel-Ray 85-140.... maybe 10% better. Still KLANK into 1st, notchy shifts, sometimes grinding downshifts. Odd thing is... upshift into third is by far the loudest, upshift into 7th is dead silent & hardly any lever travel it seems. 

[Heinz]

I'm having the same problems as you but mine is a grudgebox. I gave my description of my problems and troubleshooting I've done in the other thread so I won't repeat it here. I installed the OEM transmission after I rebuilt it last week and I sent the grudgebox back to Baker and now I'm getting great shifts and it's smooth as can be expected. The only thing I miss is that the Grudge box has a sixth gear ratio of .92 so I dropped about 300 RPM at cruise which was really nice, cruising at 80 miles an hour at 2700 RPM. I'm hoping that Baker finds something that is obvious because if they don't I'm not putting that transmission back in my bike.

[Ohio HD]

I'm having the same problems as you but mine is a grudgebox. I gave my description of my problems and troubleshooting I've done in the other thread so I won't repeat it here. I installed the OEM transmission after I rebuilt it last week and I sent the grudgebox back to Baker and now I'm getting great shifts and it's smooth as can be expected. The only thing I miss is that the Grudge box has a sixth gear ratio of .92 so I dropped about 300 RPM at cruise which was really nice, cruising at 80 miles an hour at 2700 RPM. I'm hoping that Baker finds something that is obvious because if they don't I'm not putting that transmission back in my bike.

How many times do you think it's wise to press the main drive Timken race in and out? Or did you leave it in?

[Heinz]

How many times do you think it's wise to press the main drive Timken race in and out? Or did you leave it in?

Q #1: As few times as possible but Baker does contemplate the need to press the MDG out without changing the Timken bearings or the adapter to hold them because they send three different size spacers in the Grudgebox kit if the endplay isn't within spec of .0005 to .0020 after initially pressing in the MDG. In my case, initially my endplay was .0003-.0004 which was under spec. I was concerned about pressing out the MDG even though they say to do it in the instructions so I called to talk about it further. They told me it won't hurt the bearings and it's an easy press out. So I did and put the next bigger size spacer in (the blue one). My endplay was then in spec (mine was actually .0024 after the switch but the Youtube installation video from Baker says endplay spec is .0005-.0030 even though the written instructions say .0005-.0020). I called Baker afterward and they said .0024 was great.

Q #2: I did not leave the MDG in when I pulled the Grudgebox to send it back to Baker. They told me they wanted to see everything that was in the kit including the pawl because the engineers want to go over anything that might be causing the hard shifts and occasional grinding. As far as I know the Baker MDG is not compatible with the OEM transmission so yes I pressed it out and put in the newest Harley MDG bearing with the rebuilt MDG.

I certainly hope Baker does not send me back my used adapter and Timken bearings that I previously used. I told them in my cover letter with the Grudgebox return that I expect new bearings. But getting back to the OP, when I was talking to Baker, they assured me that they think the .0024 spec on endplay is completely acceptable and has nothing to do with the grinding I occasionally get when shifting. I asked then, why do you want me to send the MDG back to you with the bearings and adapter? Their response was to see if there might be any evidence of improper installation. That made perfect sense to me and I was happy to comply with their request.

The things I did for troubleshooting went above and beyond what Baker asked of me. I tried shifting exactly as instructed by Baker. I checked pressure plate travel and got .082 inches. I checked my Barnett Scorpion clutch plates (even though it was a new clutch) and all plates were perfectly flat. I tried different gear lube and levels of primary fluid (Red Line). When none of that worked, I installed a new Evolution Industries Black Ops ring/sprocket gear and basket combo. I put in a new Barnett Scorpion clutch, new primary chain, and a new SE compensator. I checked the runout on my Baker mainshaft and the new S&S engine left side sprocket shaft. They were both very good. Only .0008 in the mainshaft at the very end and .0010 on the engine sprocket shaft (I used the method described in the Darkhorse Crankworks video). None of that helped. The transmission would still act like the OP's DD7. Like I said in the previous thread, it sounds like me and the OP got defective transmissions but I guess time will tell.

[Ohio HD]

Yeah I just wondered if they wanted the MDG or not. Hopefully they see an issue and resolve it for you both. 

[Ohio HD]

John when you were installing everything, did you happen to dry rotated the transmission once the inner primary was on, but before the clutch? Just to feel how it shifted and rotated by hand? Just looking to understand there was not a bind of anything.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

I did rotate it to make sure it spun freely, I didn't run it through the gears.When I had the clutch apart yesterday the clutch drum/mainshaft spun freely.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

I was just looking through my installation instructions and noticed the warranty card I was supposed to mail in in 45 days or less. I don't like how this is shapIng up

[jrgreene1968]

I was just looking through my installation instructions and noticed the warranty card I was supposed to mail in in 45 days or less. I don't like how this is shapIng up

I hate it when they require you to register a product.
Maybe you will luck out. I just had a 2500.00 home theater receiver go out, and never mailed the warranty info in. I called Marantz when it quit and they had it fixed and back to me in 2 weeks, no charge

[Ohio HD]

I was just looking through my installation instructions and noticed the warranty card I was supposed to mail in in 45 days or less. I don't like how this is shapIng up

I think the card is more geared to someone who purchased it from a distributor, that got it from a shelf at Drag Specialties. That way they know when you actually took delivery of it, and not by the build date. You received it direct from Baker didn't you? They know when you bought it, and when it shipped. I wouldn't loose sleep over that.

[Admiral Akbar]

Continuing from the DD7 programming thread rather than to keep dragging it off topic.

My new DD7 has been KLANKY since installation. Both a KLANK into first and with every shift except into 7th, which is always silent. Also, on downshifting a firm shift is needed or it will grind a bit between gears. It's a little "notchy" on downshift.... as if a neutral is between each gear.  Today I took the clutch apart...

First thing I noticed is the fluid is black. This has never happened before, I guess I can write it off to the new MD gear? Magnet had some paste & small shards, nothing alarming.... again new stuff?

Clutch travel is .080-.083 which seems fine. With all the plates out and in neutral the clutch drum spins freely but...

Axial runout is .006"... radial is .003, is this normal? It also makes the chain tighter in some spots than others, and tension in general seems tighter than when I put it together (Baker manual adjuster).

None of the steel plates show any wear or warping, friction plates are like new & well within spec.

I notice all of the steel plates and the spring seat have a noticeable rounded side & sharp side from being stamped... does installation direction matter?

I was hoping to find a smoking gun here rather than I just got a bad tranny, but things are looking grim. 

I'd blame the clank on the slip assist clutch.  Too much rotational play in the pressure plate causes the clunk.  My 17 rk and 2 other M8s I rode clank every time I shift in the lower gears. 

As far as downshift, learn to blip the throttle.  Probably more "hold in angle" on the clutch dogs.

There is not such thing as axial runout but there are axises with runout.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Continuing from the DD7 programming thread rather than to keep dragging it off topic.

My new DD7 has been KLANKY since installation. Both a KLANK into first and with every shift except into 7th, which is always silent. Also, on downshifting a firm shift is needed or it will grind a bit between gears. It's a little "notchy" on downshift.... as if a neutral is between each gear.  Today I took the clutch apart...

First thing I noticed is the fluid is black. This has never happened before, I guess I can write it off to the new MD gear? Magnet had some paste & small shards, nothing alarming.... again new stuff?

Clutch travel is .080-.083 which seems fine. With all the plates out and in neutral the clutch drum spins freely but...

Axial runout is .006"... radial is .003, is this normal? It also makes the chain tighter in some spots than others, and tension in general seems tighter than when I put it together (Baker manual adjuster).

None of the steel plates show any wear or warping, friction plates are like new & well within spec.

I notice all of the steel plates and the spring seat have a noticeable rounded side & sharp side from being stamped... does installation direction matter?

I was hoping to find a smoking gun here rather than I just got a bad tranny, but things are looking grim. 

I'd blame the clank on the slip assist clutch.  Too much rotational play in the pressure plate causes the clunk.  My 17 rk and 2 other M8s I rode clank every time I shift in the lower gears. 

As far as downshift, learn to blip the throttle.  Probably more "hold in angle" on the clutch dogs.

There is not such thing as axial runout but there are axises with runout.

When I put an indicator on the face of the clutch basket, there is a "wobble" if you want to call it that of .006. I call it runout. I am not talking about endplay, I'm talking about runout just as if measuring disk rotor runout.

It would be fine to blame the A&S clutch except that the shift into first was very quiet with the stock trans, and while the shifting in the other gears wasn't quiet it is louder with the new trans. Quiet shifting was the main selling point to me.

[Admiral Akbar]

When I put an indicator on the face of the clutch basket, there is a "wobble" if you want to call it that of .006. I call it runout. I am not talking about endplay, I'm talking about runout just as if measuring disk rotor runout.

It would be fine to blame the A&S clutch except that the shift into first was very quiet with the stock trans, and while the shifting in the other gears wasn't quiet it is louder with the new trans. Quiet shifting was the main selling point to me.

So it's sideways runout out on the hub.   Did you check the pressure plate? Both engaged and disengaged?  Also did you get the order of the frictions and steels correct. Especially the 2 smaller outer frictions and the 1 smaller steel.  Did you misplace a spring seat? How do the springs stack up side by side?   

[Rockout Rocker Products]

When I put an indicator on the face of the clutch basket, there is a "wobble" if you want to call it that of .006. I call it runout. I am not talking about endplay, I'm talking about runout just as if measuring disk rotor runout.

It would be fine to blame the A&S clutch except that the shift into first was very quiet with the stock trans, and while the shifting in the other gears wasn't quiet it is louder with the new trans. Quiet shifting was the main selling point to me.

So it's sideways runout out on the hub.   Did you check the pressure plate? Both engaged and disengaged?  Also did you get the order of the frictions and steels correct. Especially the 2 smaller outer frictions and the 1 smaller steel.  Did you misplace a spring seat? How do the springs stack up side by side?

The runout is on what I call the basket... the outer portion of the clutch that the gear is attached to. The plates are all in the right order, double checked. I did have the disc spring in backwards but changing it had no effect. Spring seats are all in place, I didn't measure springs... good point there.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Here is the "runout" I was talking about. Turning the inside of the clutch causes the outside to wobble...https://vimeo.com/335020994/d49934de84

Clutch hub & basket seem to have little wear...

[attach=0]
[attach=1]
[attach=2]

Plates and disks are very free... little tendency to stick together.

And Max... springs are all the same length 

[rredneckn2]

Did you Install this Transmission? Did you have the proper tools for the final drive bearing and gear.?

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Did you Install this Transmission? Did you have the proper tools for the final drive bearing and gear.?

Yes, and yes.
Not saying I couldn't have screwed up.

[Admiral Akbar]

Did you change the tensioner at the same time you changed the tranny?