Intermittent starting issue

[glenf]

The bike is a 2012 switchback, stock except Vance and Hines pipes. No trouble codes. Sometimes when you push the start button on the right handle bar it does absolutely nothing. Lights don't dim, no clicking, nothing. Push it three or four times and it will usually start. It was in the Harley shop for four hours, they say there is nothing wrong with it. I believe it is the start button on the handle bar. Pulled the housing apart to change the switch. I have changed a lot of these switches up to the year 09, and this one is different. Haven't seen this one before. Ordered a manual from Harley. They say there are three in California, and will get me one in a week to 10 days. I could use any help I could get, as in a schematic or knowledge at all that someone might have on how to test these switches, and or replace. Thank you in advance.

[FSG]

HD SIP 2012 WIRING DIAGRAMS

[smoserx1]

Sounds like it could be a bad relay.  Starter button is a possibility though.

[motorhogman]

HD SIP 2012 WIRING DIAGRAMS

FSG.. Do you have one of these available for a 2001 FLHT ?  I bought one on line and down loaded it but it's a real PITA to find what I'm looking for. 

[kd]

HD SIP 2012 WIRING DIAGRAMS

FSG.. Do you have one of these available for a 2001 FLHT ?  I bought one on line and down loaded it but it's a real PITA to find what I'm looking for. 

Scroll down to the bottom of the home page here and open up Instruction Sheets, Bulletins and Recalls.  FSG has put together an excellent collection of material. Get acquainted with what is there so you know where to look next time.  I know I often forget.   Thanks FSG,   

[fbn ent]

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=16691.0

[MikeL]

You could use this bypasses starter relay till you find the problem.........

                                                                                                     MIKE

[Rusticwater]

The bike is a 2012 switchback, stock except Vance and Hines pipes. No trouble codes. Sometimes when you push the start button on the right handle bar it does absolutely nothing. Lights don't dim, no clicking, nothing. Push it three or four times and it will usually start. It was in the Harley shop for four hours, they say there is nothing wrong with it. I believe it is the start button on the handle bar. Pulled the housing apart to change the switch. I have changed a lot of these switches up to the year 09, and this one is different. Haven't seen this one before. Ordered a manual from Harley. They say there are three in California, and will get me one in a week to 10 days. I could use any help I could get, as in a schematic or knowledge at all that someone might have on how to test these switches, and or replace. Thank you in advance.

2012 was the first year for the Switchback and also the first year the Dyna line went to canbus, so yes the switches are going to be different because you're dealing with canbus (HD-LAN) signals and a BCM. Because there's a BCM...no relays.

The left and right handlebar switch assemblies are sealed modular units and are considered non-repairable.

Besides a service manual, you should also have the Electrical Diagnostic Manual...

Check your connectors and have a can of electrical contact cleaner ready.

Creative googling might uncover freely downloadable pdf Dyna service manuals that cover the Switchback, perhaps not for your year but close enough 

[FSG]

FSG.. Do you have one of these available for a 2001 FLHT ?  I bought one on line and down loaded it but it's a real PITA to find what I'm looking for.

HD SIP 2001 WIRING DIAGRAMS


kd & fbn     SIP has made things so much easier   

[motorhogman]

FSG.. Do you have one of these available for a 2001 FLHT ?  I bought one on line and down loaded it but it's a real PITA to find what I'm looking for.

HD SIP 2001 WIRING DIAGRAMS


kd & fbn     SIP has made things so much easier   

Thank You much.. Saw KD's reply and will look into them.. 

[glenf]

Thank you all for all the help and advice, but I am still stuck. The wiring diagrams were nice to have, but I couldn't fully understand them. The CAN high and CAN low is over my head. The manual hasn't even been shipped yet. Went through the bike and cleaned every ground wire, every connection I could find. Going to put it back together and ride it for a bit. I know how to jump start it if the button fails. I believe it is either the start switch or the wire, but I can't figure out which one. If you have anymore ideas I am open to any and all suggestions. I am just to damn old for all this electronic crap. Thank you again for all your help.

[rigidthumper]

It could also be the BCM module- On CAN bus bikes, all the switches simply post a request to the BCM, and the BCM responds by performing the request. If you have security, the BCM PN is 41000341E, MSRP is roughly $320.
Non security PN is 41000351E, MSRP the same.
This is the 5th or 6th generation of BCM, and I remember seeing this issue with early CAN BUS bikes.
HTH

[Rusticwater]

I'm assuming you've done the usual check on your electrical connections at the starter and that if you have a security system you've replaced your fob battery, etc.

Is the starter solenoid getting a +12V signal every time you push the start button? See the following diagram. Unplug the red/black wire from the starter and put a meter on it. If it is, then I would focus on the starter.

Canbus is a love/hate thing...it's not your "father's Oldsmobile" but it can simplify troubleshooting at times. Instead of trying to trace circuit logic through many different items you're essentially just dealing with inputs and outputs and a BCM. The downside is that if you try to swap out parts to troubleshoot like a new handlebar switch assembly or BCM at ~$300 each it gets expensive fast.
[attach=0,msg1297699]

[camel]

 

You could use this bypasses starter relay till you find the problem.........

                                                                                                     MIKE

As suggest by Mikel, use a by-passes starter relay . Real easy to install.

[Evo160K]

Glenf,

Is it possible it could be a broken wire in the loom coming from the fork?  Those wires get a lot of flexing when the handlebars are moved.  It happened on my evo fxstc.  Next time it fails to start, move the handlebars from side to side  a couple of times then try to start it again.  You can also hold the start button down while you're moving the handlebars.

[glenf]

Hey, thanks again for all your input and suggestions. So far I have completed all the cleaning of all connections, put a bypass starter button on, put a meter on the Solenoid wire disconnected from the Solenoid. Every time I hit the start button it gets voltage. I piggy back wired a LED light to the handle bars, plugged it back into the Solenoid so I could see what it was doing under load.

Now when I push the start button the LED lights up, but as the bike is starting the LED flashes on and off. I cleaned the connections and the Solenoid when I installed the bypass switch, but I thought they were a little bad for a 2012. I was thinking the plunger must be bouncing. When I place my finger on the end of the temporary start button, and push the starter button on the handle bar I can feel the plunger bouncing in and out.

So now I am back to checking the battery to make sure it is good. On start up it draws down to 11.2 volts. Any ideas as to why the Solenoid would be bouncing in and out? I have never seen that.

Once again any help or input would be appreciated. Thank you in advance...

[Rugby_fxdwg]

You could use this bypasses starter relay till you find the problem.........

                                                                                                     MIKE

I wish I could find one of these to fit my 1989 FXRS the one I have for 1990 and up is to small. Can't seem to find what I need anywhere.

[speedzter]

Does it still start OK with the LED flashing ?
Maybe just the forward voltage of the LED and the starter on compression stroke causing voltage pulses.

When it is in fault mode (no start ) does the LED light at all ?
Possible cause maybe the neutral safety start circuit.
Have you tried it with the clutch puled in ?

[Hossamania]

Have you tried jumpimg it with another battery?

[Rusticwater]

Hey, thanks again for all your input and suggestions. So far I have completed all the cleaning of all connections, put a bypass starter button on, put a meter on the Solenoid wire disconnected from the Solenoid. Every time I hit the start button it gets voltage. I piggy back wired a LED light to the handle bars, plugged it back into the Solenoid so I could see what it was doing under load.

Now when I push the start button the LED lights up, but as the bike is starting the LED flashes on and off. I cleaned the connections and the Solenoid when I installed the bypass switch, but I thought they were a little bad for a 2012. I was thinking the plunger must be bouncing. When I place my finger on the end of the temporary start button, and push the starter button on the handle bar I can feel the plunger bouncing in and out.

So now I am back to checking the battery to make sure it is good. On start up it draws down to 11.2 volts. Any ideas as to why the Solenoid would be bouncing in and out? I have never seen that.

Once again any help or input would be appreciated. Thank you in advance...

You'd be better off putting that LED at the solenoid wire instead. Because you have a BCM, again you're basically dealing with just inputs and outputs. If the output is firing you know the input signal should be good, so measuring stuff at the handlebars with a LED isn't doing much for you. Don't get caught up in trying to make sense of canbus signals, that's like dealing with a computer network.

All you should care about is the signal at the solenoid wire. You mentioned it gets voltage every time you press the start button...what kind of voltage, a good, steady +12V? Or is it an intermittent signal?

You could also try totally isolating the starter. Put the bike in neutral, make sure it's in neutral. Disconnect the solenoid wire. CAREFULLY jump from from the battery+ connection on the starter to the solenoid terminal. What happens to the starter then? Some info in this thread here that might apply to your situation.

Have you tried jumpimg it with another battery?

Good advice from Hoss (as usual!)

[Evo160K]

You could use this bypasses starter relay till you find the problem.........

                                                                                                     MIKE

I wish I could find one of these to fit my 1989 FXRS the one I have for 1990 and up is to small. Can't seem to find what I need anywhere.

Try this from Custom Cycle Engineering,  1-(800) 472-9253 :  https://www.customcycleengineering.com/catalog_switch_image_lightbox.php