Dunno numbers don't seem right

[genzer]

Just got my bike back from having it dynoed and #s don't seem to add up, I think. 16' rg 103 w/ SE a.c., Rinehart slim line duels,  cycle ramma 575 cams. Now I had WFO Larry do stage 1+ cc set the compression with .30 gaskets at 10.25:1, doesn't look like much of a gain. Also I changed the slip on to Tab performance with zombie baffles, thoughts? Not a good tune?

[02roadcling]

 

Race my dinky 98" for pink slips? 

   cling

[jrgreene1968]

It don't sound right. Can you tell much difference when riding?

[remington007]

What gear was the pulls?

[PoorUB]

Guys, watch the scale on his sheet!!

Just shy of 95 HP and 108 ftlbs.

HP is ok, but the torque appears to be about 5 ftlbs shy.

Here is a comparison.
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=87108.msg990066#msg990066

[genzer]

Can't tell much difference, maybe a little touchy throttle. Don't know what gear pulled I would imagine 6th

[genzer]

UB, that dyno sheet didn't have any headwork I believe.

[PoorUB]

UB, that dyno sheet didn't have any headwork I believe.

True, the link I put up looks like the heads were never off. The OP's engine should do better than the link I posted.

[Scotty]

Scaling has been changed as well in the dyno sheet.  I know it don't really matter but lines crossing at 5250 makes it easier to compare to other sheets.
That one crosses over at 4550 by the looks of it.

[kd]

A 2007 103 with SG decker gearing, heads (Cycle Ramma but like I'm sure Larry would do), 10.25:1, -.030 HG and a good exhaust with CR575's IMO should just break at about 105 HP and close to 115 torque (give or take dependent on climate and elevation).  I have seen one that with with the stock 07 exhaust w/ SE mufflers and with a SuperTrapp.  The stock head pipe came in a tick above both averages tunes at sea level in Florida (summer) by a known top tuner / builder (Wes) and the Super trap (disc tuned) came in a tick under the averages tuned at 1,000' in Minnesota by another good tuner in late spring.   This bike has 100 ft pounds as it crosses 2,000 rpm and quicly peaks with a flat tq line, goes like stink but admittedly starts to fall off above 5,000 rpm.

Since I became aware of this cam 5 or so years ago I have watched for other sheets and I see very similar graphs if with similar engine work etc..  This dyno may be cheap, the atmospheric conditions were off, the exhaust wasn't playing, all of the above or many other reasons.

[genzer]

Kd, those are the kind of numbers I was expecting, I'm hoping Darren will chime in because I pretty much copied one of his builds based on the cr 575.  I don't think the tuner knows how to go beyond a basic tune, IMHO.

[kd]

One of my points is there are a number of reasons a dyno can spit out a lower reading from atmospheric to settings and more.  How does it feel is a valid question.

[genzer]

Feels like before the upgrades

[genzer]

Didn't think I'd notice 1 lb. of torque lol and that small bit of hp.

[PoorUB]

The two runs on the dyno chart are both after the engine work was done?

Too bad there was not a before run on the same dyno.

How does the motorcycle feel? There should be a very noticable improvement.

It might just be a very conservative dyno.

[genzer]

UB, those are before and after.

[PoorUB]

UB, those are before and after.

Before and after the engine work?

Or both runs after the engine work?

My point in asking, if we are seeing a stock run versus the finished tune you definitely have an issue. If it is after the engine work and it was the start and finish of the tuning session then it may just be the result of a conservative dyno.

[genzer]

UB,the lower numbers run were from last year, the only things I did this this winter were the heads and changed slipons. Tuner just overlapped last year's run and current run.

[PoorUB]

Ok, you got something  wrong!

[genzer]

Yeah, I'm thinking it's the tuner!

[jrgreene1968]

I'd double check compression just to make sure something weird ain't going on there

[genzer]

Friend of mine runs a stage 4  and keeps yacking in my ear ..get a thundermax!

[genzer]

JR, I'll do that , don't know what the comp should be.

[jrgreene1968]

JR, I'll do that , don't know what the comp should be.

Looks like around 202 psi @ sea level according to big boys calculator

[Don D]

There is nothing wrong, that cam is a torque variety, it's a 103.

[jrgreene1968]

There is nothing wrong, that cam is a torque variety, it's a 103.

Sure seems like a lot of work and money for 5hp and 1 tq gain.
Would have been money ahead to leave it alone, if that's the case

[harpwrench]

Your muffler swap probably isn't helping the left side any, from the looks of the description on their site. I'm guessing you're lucky it did as it well as it did.

[genzer]

I didn't expect much of a gain in torque by doing  heads but I expected more in hp, not sure about the exhaust but man they are loud! Just sayin!

[genzer]

JR, exactly !

[Thermodyne]

110/110 ain't bad for a 103 with those parts.  That set up is really not going to ever make big numbers.

I would want to see the flow numbers on those heads, it might be a bit of a disappointment.   

A cam that hung the intake open longer would improve the peak hp, but you'd pay for it under 3000.  But then that's what the extra compression is supposed to be for.   

[genzer]

Therm, I'd be content with 110/110 but that's not what I'm getting, gained a little under 5 hp for doing head work? doesn't seem right, could've saved money because there is no felt difference and it should've run stronger IMO

[Hossamania]

For my peace of mind, I would do a compression test.

[Thermodyne]

For my peace of mind, I would do a compression test.

Well, if you'd be happy with 110, then retard the cams 4 degrees, and retune it.

That cam will make 120/110 with good flowing heads.  I would expect to see the torque cross 110 pounds foot shortly after 2500 and stay above 110 till about 5000 rpm.  Yours just never gets there and then give up way early. 

If you got a exhaust gas reading, post that and lets see how it was burning.

[Don D]

There is nothing wrong, that cam is a torque variety, it's a 103.

Sure seems like a lot of work and money for 5hp and 1 tq gain.
Would have been money ahead to leave it alone, if that's the case

So much is not known including motor health. Guys are quick to blame heads, not likely

[SOCS]

I am no expert, far from it, but I am going to throw this out there. A buddy from work built his twin cam last year using a proven recipe and had it tuned locally.  His numbers were no where near the desired results and bike didn't have the power be felt it should. He took it to another tuner which yielded the same result. They tore into the bike and discovered it was sumping and he used the wrong exhaust gasket. A smashed o ring and the wrong exhaust gaskets killed it.

[Don D]

Exactly.
You would be surprised the misses I get calls on. Then further probing things like deck height and piston to valve clearance was not checked.
Years ago I did a test with just heads  and no other changes. On a 103 it yielded 7hp 5tq.

[Buglet]

   Don, was that on a bone stock bike or was there different changes done to the bike.

[genzer]

Checked compression - rear-120 front-118 as far as motor health 4952 miles,not beat on. Talked again to the tuner says he'll do another pull but thinks that's all that combo will make, and my mistake he dyno's in 4th.

[kd]

That compression is way too low. Enter your info into the Big Boyz calculator to see what it should be and compare to that.  It will be a close estimate.  Did you have the throttle valve open and crank until it stopped bumping up? How's your battery and cranking speed? .... use a car battery for a jumper to ensure a good test?  Try another "known good" compression tester for comparison. 

[Don D]

   Don, was that on a bone stock bike or was there different changes done to the bike.

This was a stage 1 96"
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,88341.125.html

Regarding the compression test something is wrong with the test or your motor. Were the ACRs disconnected?

[kd]

Ahhhha .... I forgot about the ACR's.  That may be it too.

[genzer]

  front 170 rear 180

[Don D]

Likely not enough corrected compression to work the combination optimally

[genzer]

What avenue's do I have?

[rigidthumper]

Fire it up for 30 seconds, shut it off, remove both plugs, and repeat CCP test with ACRs disconnected and throttle open. If you're still at 170, cam timing or ring seal is suspect. That combo should crank near 200.

[Ohio HD]

  ^^^
  THIS


And also check it with another gauge. Less extensive gauges are sometimes suspect.

[PoorUB]

And then a third gauge! It wouldn't be the first time someone had two bad compression gauges!

[genzer]

 Will do, gonna have to wait till tomorrow to borrow one. Flow numbers 273 c.f. @ 28" I appreciate all the help guys thx again.

[BVHOG]

First off, like mentioned get the damn sheet in forced scaling (crossing hp and torque lines at 5250)  I sold a kit to a guy this spring and the numbers were down considerably and the graph looked just like that. Pulled 40z out of the sump. Once again the wrong O-ring in the pump to case location. And TAB "Zombie" baffles. What the hell is that? But go ahead and blame the tuner or head porter immediately.

[Ohio HD]

Bob is right, you can't say what is what until you check it out.