March 29, 2024, 05:39:57 AM

News:


Sumping issues solved

Started by BigT, September 24, 2018, 04:13:48 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.


rbabos

Quote from: Nastytls on September 26, 2018, 04:57:00 AM
Quote from: klammer76 on September 25, 2018, 08:17:06 PM

Video 2019 CVO:

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/attachments/screamin-eagle-cvo-models/595691d1537915720-2019-cvo-engine-issues-5c9f9cf7-94e0-40e8-b790-148a1c38d33c.mov

That's an awful lot of oil coming out of there.
Nope, you worry too much. :hyst: Oh please , let me go out and buy one of these fkg POS M8s, NOT. Between this and trans migration the whole thing is getting a bit of comical "Potty mouth" show.  Time to call Porsche for advice. :wink:
Ron

No Cents

   I'm so glad I didn't run out and buy a M8.
I'll keep watching and waiting. I want one...but I'm not willing to drop down that kind of coin for a new bike that has the issues it has.
   Someone high up top in the chain of command @ the MoCo needs to put a boot in the engineers asses and get this situation sorted out. It's a damn shame they release an engine that sumps like the one in the video. Those kind of results should drive customers away and the sales should plummet. Just think...I wonder how many people are out there riding around on their new M8...basically unaware of this issue. But...they do have a new shiny HD.  :doh:
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

BigT

Looks like I might have spoke too soon claiming the problem was solved. I barely got 1oz of oil to drain

hattitude

Quote from: No Cents on September 26, 2018, 07:30:04 AM
   I'm so glad I didn't run out and buy a M8.
I'll keep watching and waiting. I want one...but I'm not willing to drop down that kind of coin for a new bike that has the issues it has.

   Someone high up top in the chain of command @ the MoCo needs to put a boot in the engineers asses and get this situation sorted out. It's a damn shame they release an engine that sumps like the one in the video. Those kind of results should drive customers away and the sales should plummet. Just think...I wonder how many people are out there riding around on their new M8...basically unaware of this issue. But...they do have a new shiny HD.  :doh:

You are not alone... I feel the same way, and know 3 other people with similar opinions... I don't think the MoCo realizes how many sales of M8s they have lost with their failure to jump on this and fix it right away.

I know that you wouldn't be able to give me, as well as my friends, a '17, '18, and now '19 M8 bike....!

I also read on the other forum that the MoCo has now raised the allowable amount of oil to drain from the sump to 12oz...!?!?!? Didn't it start out at 3oz..?  :wtf:

Just a crazy lack of of response to a problem...

kd

Quote from: hattitude on September 26, 2018, 08:38:42 AM
Quote from: No Cents on September 26, 2018, 07:30:04 AM
   I'm so glad I didn't run out and buy a M8.
I'll keep watching and waiting. I want one...but I'm not willing to drop down that kind of coin for a new bike that has the issues it has.

   Someone high up top in the chain of command @ the MoCo needs to put a boot in the engineers asses and get this situation sorted out. It's a damn shame they release an engine that sumps like the one in the video. Those kind of results should drive customers away and the sales should plummet. Just think...I wonder how many people are out there riding around on their new M8...basically unaware of this issue. But...they do have a new shiny HD.  :doh:

You are not alone... I feel the same way, and know 3 other people with similar opinions... I don't think the MoCo realizes how many sales of M8s they have lost with their failure to jump on this and fix it right away.

I know that you wouldn't be able to give me, as well as my friends, a '17, '18, and now '19 M8 bike....!

I also read on the other forum that the MoCo has now raised the allowable amount of oil to drain from the sump to 12oz...!?!?!? Didn't it start out at 3oz..?  :wtf:

Just a crazy lack of of response to a problem...


.... Just like they increased the allowable runout on the TC cranks.   :banghead:  More weasel moves.
KD

klammer76

Quote from: kd on September 26, 2018, 08:48:34 AM
Quote from: hattitude on September 26, 2018, 08:38:42 AM
Quote from: No Cents on September 26, 2018, 07:30:04 AM
   I'm so glad I didn't run out and buy a M8.
I'll keep watching and waiting. I want one...but I'm not willing to drop down that kind of coin for a new bike that has the issues it has.

   Someone high up top in the chain of command @ the MoCo needs to put a boot in the engineers asses and get this situation sorted out. It's a damn shame they release an engine that sumps like the one in the video. Those kind of results should drive customers away and the sales should plummet. Just think...I wonder how many people are out there riding around on their new M8...basically unaware of this issue. But...they do have a new shiny HD.  :doh:

You are not alone... I feel the same way, and know 3 other people with similar opinions... I don't think the MoCo realizes how many sales of M8s they have lost with their failure to jump on this and fix it right away.

I know that you wouldn't be able to give me, as well as my friends, a '17, '18, and now '19 M8 bike....!

I also read on the other forum that the MoCo has now raised the allowable amount of oil to drain from the sump to 12oz...!?!?!? Didn't it start out at 3oz..?  :wtf:

Just a crazy lack of of response to a problem...


.... Just like they increased the allowable runout on the TC cranks.   :banghead:  More weasel moves.
:agree: That's what I said. Ridiculous.

klammer76

September 26, 2018, 09:11:12 AM #32 Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 09:16:44 AM by klammer76
Quote from: Nastytls on September 26, 2018, 04:57:00 AM
Quote from: klammer76 on September 25, 2018, 08:17:06 PM

Video 2019 CVO:

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/attachments/screamin-eagle-cvo-models/595691d1537915720-2019-cvo-engine-issues-5c9f9cf7-94e0-40e8-b790-148a1c38d33c.mov

That's an awful lot of oil coming out of there.
There is another video also but on a 2017. That one shows it better. Member here had his 2018 sump last week at Paris HD on way to Sandoval run. Said oil tank was empty and crank case full. This is just crazy.

Quote from: hattitude on September 26, 2018, 08:38:42 AM
Quote from: No Cents on September 26, 2018, 07:30:04 AM
   I'm so glad I didn't run out and buy a M8.
I'll keep watching and waiting. I want one...but I'm not willing to drop down that kind of coin for a new bike that has the issues it has.

   Someone high up top in the chain of command @ the MoCo needs to put a boot in the engineers asses and get this situation sorted out. It's a damn shame they release an engine that sumps like the one in the video. Those kind of results should drive customers away and the sales should plummet. Just think...I wonder how many people are out there riding around on their new M8...basically unaware of this issue. But...they do have a new shiny HD.  :doh:

You are not alone... I feel the same way, and know 3 other people with similar opinions... I don't think the MoCo realizes how many sales of M8s they have lost with their failure to jump on this and fix it right away.

I know that you wouldn't be able to give me, as well as my friends, a '17, '18, and now '19 M8 bike....!

I also read on the other forum that the MoCo has now raised the allowable amount of oil to drain from the sump to 12oz...!?!?!? Didn't it start out at 3oz..?  :wtf:

Just a crazy lack of of response to a problem...

I too was really thinking about a 2019 hoping the issue was corrected. Just can't do it at this point. Very disappointing. I am now starting to lean toward the need to redesign the case for scavenging and venting. I feel sorry for those that just don't put on a lot of miles in a two year warranty period and then have a problem once out of warranty. Live with a stock bike for two years w/o even an exhaust change for warranty, no problem say with 10,000 miles on bike then do an exhaust, tuner etc and have sumping occur. Engine is toast (having nothing to do with the slight modifications) and a new motor is on your dime and will be the same design.... Harley still just turns a blind eye to this and moves forward. I would love to know what is being said behind closed doors during a board meeting.

Hossamania

September 26, 2018, 11:12:31 AM #33 Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 11:30:35 AM by Hossamania
Quote from: No Cents on September 26, 2018, 07:30:04 AM
   Those kind of results should drive customers away and the sales should plummet. Just think...I wonder how many people are out there riding around on their new M8...basically unaware of this issue. But...they do have a new shiny HD.  :doh:

I have a friend that bought a '17 Ultra. He loves it. I did not mention a thing about any of the potential problems with it, I'm trying to keep out of other people's situations unless they ask. It's not easy.
So far he has had no issues, that he is aware of, of course.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

No Cents

   I've got a few friends with new M8's too.
I don't question them about anything either. I just keep a watchful eye out and absorb all the things they say that have improved over the previous models. They tell me how the ride is so much better and the new power is simply amazing.
   Then I just show them a twin cam tail light after they tell me how much quicker they are.  :wink:
Hoss...I want one...but I think now is not the time for me to get one with all the issues still happening. When I retired a few years ago my plan was to buy myself a new bike. I'm still waiting and I keep hoping that the MoCo will finally step up and get the bugs worked out of them. If not...my new bike money keeps on growing in Edward Jones hands. Maybe I'll be able to buy two bikes by the time they get it straightened out.  :hyst:
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Scooterfish

Hattitude "I also read on the other forum that the MoCo has now raised the allowable amount of oil to drain from the sump to 12oz...!?!?!? Didn't it start out at 3oz..?

They didn`t have to go back very far in the play book to increase the allowable .......... what ever number.

Maybe HD should go to one hole , one oil.  :emoGroan:
Northern Indiana

kd

Quote from: No Cents on September 26, 2018, 11:32:34 AM
   I've got a few friends with new M8's too.
I don't question them about anything either. I just keep a watchful eye out and absorb all the things they say that have improved over the previous models. They tell me how the ride is so much better and the new power is simply amazing.
   Then I just show them a twin cam tail light after they tell me how much quicker they are.  :wink:
Hoss...I want one...but I think now is not the time for me to get one with all the issues still happening. When I retired a few years ago my plan was to buy myself a new bike. I'm still waiting and I keep hoping that the MoCo will finally step up and get the bugs worked out of them. If not...my new bike money keeps on growing in Edward Jones hands. Maybe I'll be able to buy two bikes by the time they get it straightened out.  :hyst:


Now Ray, you know where the extra money will go.  It'll get 8-up.  :fish:  :hyst: :hyst:
KD

No Cents

      you know it will kd. My whole life a new stock bike lasted me the length of the ride home from the dealership before I trashed the warranty.  I can't help myself...it's a sickness.  :hyst: 
    ...if the MoCo can't get the stock M8's right...then a big block M8 looks like to me it would have even a shorter life span. I'll wait.
    There are a lot of smart guys out there trying to come up with the needed fixes for these things. I'm just waiting for it all to happen. Once it does then I will cross over into the world of the M8's. Until then...my T/C will just have to suffice.
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

kd

I don't know how you can stand it Ray.  :wink:
KD

Hunter14



Harley still just turns a blind eye to this and moves forward. I would love to know what is being said behind closed doors during a board meeting.
[/quote]

Probably saying some people will complain if you hung them with a new rope...
The'll get over it and just buy our latest and greatest  M8 114.... :koolaid4:
If you don't wave to them, They wont wave back to you...

klammer76

Quote from: Hunter14 on September 26, 2018, 05:17:26 PM


Harley still just turns a blind eye to this and moves forward. I would love to know what is being said behind closed doors during a board meeting.

Probably saying some people will complain if you hung them with a new rope...
The'll get over it and just buy our latest and greatest  M8 114.... :koolaid4:
[/quote]
Could very well be, but I think as time goes on and this persists and possibly becomes more main stream, that pool may get shallower & shallower.

cbumdumb

Mine sumped two doors down from Paris . I am going to do the first service this weekend will measure all three holes this is the fifth generation oil pump . They didn't get it right in five tries I have little faith this will work . Many folk think roadglides are ugly well it may be time to say by to Harley and hello to either Honda or  BMW but damn that Beemer is one ugly bike lol. Maybe I will get lucky with this damn bike. Oh wait I am waiting for them to decide how they are going to fix bubbling paint . Hey Harley hope you read this .

Smarty

Just FYI, I also have an 18 RGS that is pumping. Drained a little more than 10 oz. our of the sump plug. I tore it apart with just over  3000 miles on it. The oil pump surfaces are ridiculously poor finishes. I'm receiving the S&S pump and campmate Monday. I got a call from a friend in Florida that I had told him I believed the problem was crankcase venting. He talked to one of the owners of a dealership and told him what I said. He said that his belief as well. He said EPA has put the screws to Harley and caused them to restrict the crankcase breathing and also the transmission breathing. His claim is that is reason for the migration of the transmission oil to the primary and the dumping issues on the engine. I've already screwed my warranty which I always do anyway. Will be looking at the breathing issues and adding external breathing hoses to the heads, venting to the ground. Also, removing the transmission cover and checking the size of the venting hole. I checked runout on the crank yesterday and it is an awesome .001. I've never owned a Harley with a stock crank that was that good. Will it last? Time will tell.
Smarty
Suspended by Smarty
Carol Burks

No Cents

   :up:  thanks for the info Smarty!  I'll watch to see what you find.
With the sounds of the issues going on with these M8's...my initial thought was the cases were building up excessive pressure inside them which could be causing all kinds of problems. I kept my mouth shut and just kept watching to what was all going on. I think you could be very well right about the engine and tranny needing more venting to release internal pressures that seem to be building up.   :up:
  I know I bought a new black HD tranny cover for my 08 T/C at the dealership, which I quickly noticed when I took it out of the box it had a smaller venting hole and hose on it, than what the original chrome cover came with from the factory. With the new cover installed it built pressure up in my tranny.  :kick:  So I removed it, and I scuffed up the original chrome cover and I just painted it black. The tranny didn't build up any more pressure after putting the original cover back on it with the larger venting hole and hose.
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

VDeuce

Quote from: Smarty on September 27, 2018, 07:15:20 AM
Just FYI, I also have an 18 RGS that is pumping. Drained a little more than 10 oz. our of the sump plug. I tore it apart with just over  3000 miles on it. The oil pump surfaces are ridiculously poor finishes. I'm receiving the S&S pump and campmate Monday. I got a call from a friend in Florida that I had told him I believed the problem was crankcase venting. He talked to one of the owners of a dealership and told him what I said. He said that his belief as well. He said EPA has put the screws to Harley and caused them to restrict the crankcase breathing and also the transmission breathing. His claim is that is reason for the migration of the transmission oil to the primary and the dumping issues on the engine. I've already screwed my warranty which I always do anyway. Will be looking at the breathing issues and adding external breathing hoses to the heads, venting to the ground. Also, removing the transmission cover and checking the size of the venting hole. I checked runout on the crank yesterday and it is an awesome .001. I've never owned a Harley with a stock crank that was that good. Will it last? Time will tell.
Smarty
As to the external venting:

My 120 M8 with external venting to ground sumped with the 11/18 dated oil pump. After that, I installed the Feuling race series pump and plate with no other changes. That was 6500+ miles back and the bike will not sump.

I have since added PCV valves to the ends of the external breather hoses. Who knows.

I do know that the plastic breathers are indeed suspect. There is a well known builder who's name I won't mention that is supposed to be working on aftermarket replacement breathers, but no timeframe.

The stock plastic breathers are not too great. They leak. Period. You can blow into them without much resistance. I have a new set here on the shelf and they too are the same way.

klammer76

I am unfamiliar as to how the M8 vents. My 2002 came with the plastic umbrella valve blocks that would loosen up. I replaced those with the original cast two piece and later stamped version. I also vent to the ground through fittings that I installed on my AC.

Does the M8 have a umbrella valve in a plastic mount block? I would think this would be difficult with the 4 valves? Do the heads also vent into the intake the same as with the TC?

BigT

The person in the video with the 2019 CVO had posted in another forum that the dealer has told him his motor did not have the up updated seal on the pump.

BVHOG

Quote from: VDeuce on September 27, 2018, 12:45:53 PM
Quote from: Smarty on September 27, 2018, 07:15:20 AM
Just FYI, I also have an 18 RGS that is pumping. Drained a little more than 10 oz. our of the sump plug. I tore it apart with just over  3000 miles on it. The oil pump surfaces are ridiculously poor finishes. I'm receiving the S&S pump and campmate Monday. I got a call from a friend in Florida that I had told him I believed the problem was crankcase venting. He talked to one of the owners of a dealership and told him what I said. He said that his belief as well. He said EPA has put the screws to Harley and caused them to restrict the crankcase breathing and also the transmission breathing. His claim is that is reason for the migration of the transmission oil to the primary and the dumping issues on the engine. I've already screwed my warranty which I always do anyway. Will be looking at the breathing issues and adding external breathing hoses to the heads, venting to the ground. Also, removing the transmission cover and checking the size of the venting hole. I checked runout on the crank yesterday and it is an awesome .001. I've never owned a Harley with a stock crank that was that good. Will it last? Time will tell.
Smarty
As to the external venting:

My 120 M8 with external venting to ground sumped with the 11/18 dated oil pump. After that, I installed the Feuling race series pump and plate with no other changes. That was 6500+ miles back and the bike will not sump.

I have since added PCV valves to the ends of the external breather hoses. Who knows.

I do know that the plastic breathers are indeed suspect. There is a well known builder who's name I won't mention that is supposed to be working on aftermarket replacement breathers, but no timeframe.

The stock plastic breathers are not too great. They leak. Period. You can blow into them without much resistance. I have a new set here on the shelf and they too are the same way.

I actually spoke with that "well known engine builder" this week about the new breather setup, makes perfect sense as does a breather in the oil filler.  Funny you should be mentioning the PCV valves as that came up in conversation with a buddy in the shop here yesterday.
If you don't have a sense of humor you probably have no sense at all.

rbabos

Ok, so now we have breather issues on top of sumping and trans migration? Hell, even Briggs and Stratton was smart enough to not use plastic for a breather valve, like 50 years ago. Some use a metal reed valve.  HD had issues with plastic before, yet they reverted back, it seems. I agree, controlling case pressures has a big effect on scavenging.
Ron

VDeuce

There have been some mention of the EPA putting a restriction on breather size, but that could be conjecture. What we do know is they are very small for the largest engine HD has ever produced.