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New MOCO Bluetooth system

Started by Rockout Rocker Products, August 27, 2017, 08:32:07 AM

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Rockout Rocker Products

Question for someone that REALLY knows the HD Boom audio system & flashing...

My '15 Limited has the full Biketronics 4180/7.1 system, plus Polks in the rear. It has the old, no longer available flash... something like 8 speakers, amps no, amps on yes... makes no sense I know. But..... it sounds great and doesn't need the "line levelers", in fact they make it sound worse. I also haven't upgraded to software since version 19.something.... everything works, every time there's an upgrade it seems to fix something & kill something else.

The new Bluetooth system requires a dealer flash to enable it, also requires updating to the latest software version. Would that overwrite my old unobtainium flash? Or is that flash separate?

I really want the wireless system but not if it's going to mean losing the great audio I have now.

Thanks  :beer: :beer:
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UltraNutZ

it's going to update everything. 
Politicians are like diapers.
They need to be changed for the same reasons

Rockout Rocker Products

Not what I wanted to hear, but was expected.

So... next question...

Has anyone figured out how to make the 4180 system sound good with the new software? Looking around the forums all I see is disappointment.
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mstrobes

Anyone know if the new blue tooth can use only Harley or Sena headset or will it work with others like Scala?

Rockout Rocker Products

I found a work around from a gent on another forum, uses a Sena 20s and BT10. Cheaper, does what I want & needs no flash. I'll post more when I get it done.
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FurryOne

Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on August 28, 2017, 05:26:44 AM
I found a work around from a gent on another forum, uses a Sena 20s and BT10. Cheaper, does what I want & needs no flash. I'll post more when I get it done.

If the BT10 works with a typical 4-connection phone headset (w/mic) then it should connect through the 280A interface or even the 7-pin H-D headset connector since they are only audio in/out.  The only problem might be impedance mismatching.

UltraNutZ

Quote from: mstrobes on August 27, 2017, 09:34:56 PM
Anyone know if the new blue tooth can use only Harley or Sena headset or will it work with others like Scala?

Check out Sena Freewire
Politicians are like diapers.
They need to be changed for the same reasons

FurryOne

Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on August 28, 2017, 05:26:44 AM
I found a work around from a gent on another forum, uses a Sena 20s and BT10. Cheaper, does what I want & needs no flash. I'll post more when I get it done.

Any update on that?  I've got the adapter cable on BO, but I'm absorbed with CB antenna quality at the moment, and it looks like the Season will be in full wind-down before the adapter cable is shipping.

Rockout Rocker Products

I'm hoping to get to it this weekend, I have all the stuff.

Note though.... the setup is only one way. It gives you full voice control of everything, but sound only comes from the bike's speakers. That's how I would want it anyway.

Basically, the 20S headset talks to the BT-10 Bluetooth mic. The BT-10 has an output jack for the sound. You connect the + and - of that cable to the mic + and mic- on the mentioned 280 plug on the harness in the fairing. There are a couple settings to go through but that's the basics. It can probably be bidirectional with a couple more wires.
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FurryOne

Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on September 28, 2017, 07:58:18 PM
Basically, the 20S headset talks to the BT-10 Bluetooth mic. The BT-10 has an output jack for the sound.

I've decided to wait until the "rush" for the H-D system is over, then buy it along with a pair of the H-D 20S EVO headsets  - I have a 1/2 & 3/4 helmets and switch between them.  Still no word when H-D will have the adapter for those with CBs available for shipping.  I guess that's no great loss since the H-D CB is pretty worthless.

Rockout Rocker Products

If it wasn't for my concern about losing my Boom flash I'd just go the HD route too. JM audio is hinting on HDF that their flash is the same as mine, but no real commitment. If I could go that route I would also.
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Rockout Rocker Products

Man, talk about confusing. Some people say that getting the flash for the WHIM (Bluetooth module) will overwrite the speaker/amp settings, that JM guy on HDF swears it won't. An actual user there swears it did. On & on.

Can anyone here that works at a dealer confirm....... when you flash the Boom head unit for the WHIM, does it overwrite your speaker/amp settings also?

Thanks
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FurryOne

Oh brother!  Now Sena has announced their 30K system.  I wonder if this means H-D will be upgrading theirs to the 30K soon. 

Rockout Rocker Products

Well, I bailed on the BT10 setup. Turns out the WHIM installation doesn't mess with existing amp/speakers setups. It's just enabling something in another menu. Haven't had time to play with anything but so far mostly as planned. One issue... the WHIM module wants to mount where my BT 4180 amp is... not gonna happen. 3M heavy duty Velcro to the rescue...

[attach=0]
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FurryOne

Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on October 21, 2017, 08:29:48 PM
Well, I bailed on the BT10 setup. Turns out the WHIM installation doesn't mess with existing amp/speakers setups. It's just enabling something in another menu. Haven't had time to play with anything but so far mostly as planned. One issue... the WHIM module wants to mount where my BT 4180 amp is... not gonna happen. 3M heavy duty Velcro to the rescue...

Is the WHIM in a plastic or metal case?  H-D still is having problems shipping the adapter harness needed if you have a CB.

Rockout Rocker Products

Quote from: FurryOne on October 22, 2017, 05:47:14 PM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on October 21, 2017, 08:29:48 PM
Well, I bailed on the BT10 setup. Turns out the WHIM installation doesn't mess with existing amp/speakers setups. It's just enabling something in another menu. Haven't had time to play with anything but so far mostly as planned. One issue... the WHIM module wants to mount where my BT 4180 amp is... not gonna happen. 3M heavy duty Velcro to the rescue...

Is the WHIM in a plastic or metal case?  H-D still is having problems shipping the adapter harness needed if you have a CB.

Plastic case.

The extra harness was in stock at Boardtracker when I ordered the WHIM.

They REALLY ought to offer two versions of the WHIM, rather than making CB owners pay extra, then throw away the expensive harness that comes standard.

Not the MOCO way.... they'll call CB WHIM installation "Stage IV"   :hyst:
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FurryOne

Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on October 22, 2017, 06:07:27 PM

Plastic case.

The extra harness was in stock at Boardtracker when I ordered the WHIM.

I got a notice on the 9th that mine was "packed " by H-D to ship to Surdyke.   Yeaaaah, Sure!

QuoteThey REALLY ought to offer two versions of the WHIM, rather than making CB owners pay extra, then throw away the expensive harness that comes standard.

You need to do something about that "logical" thinking.   :slap:

QuoteNot the MOCO way.... they'll call CB WHIM installation "Stage IV"   :hyst:

I think they ought to call the plastic case version the "WHIMp"   :potstir:

FurryOne

I finally got my extra cost CB/WHIM/Boom interface cable.  I've been following discussions about the Sena 30K w/mesh and the Cardo PackTalk w/mesh on the sport bike forums.  So far, it doesn't look great for the Sena 30K - it looks like the public is beta testing their product, possibly due to rushing it out because Cardo already hit the streets with their PacTalk product.  The Cardo PackTalk seems to work much better right now.  Your best bet right now if you ride a Harley and want to communicate with 2 or less other riders and control your Boom 6.5GT system is the H-D branded 20S headset (& the H-D WHIM bluetooth module)  I have no idea if the Sena 30K will interface with the H-D WHIM at this time, but it's a good bet that the PackTalk doesn't.  If you don't want to interface with your H-D Boom system, then the Cardo PackTalk is the best communications headset at this time - it will connect to up to 15 riders over it's mesh network, and it can even add riders with Sena BT systems (20S) into it's mesh.

Rockout Rocker Products

If I'm not mistaken the HD Sena unit will talk to 8 other bikes.

It's also the only one that will receive stereo sound from the 6.5... all others are in mono.

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FurryOne

Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on November 16, 2017, 06:34:54 PM
If I'm not mistaken the HD Sena unit will talk to 8 other bikes.

While H-D indicates that "up to" 8 riders can communicate with the 20S, real world experience is that after 3 riders the chances of maintaining the daisy-chain drops off Niagara Falls.  Now the "EVO" version may have improved this situation, but those reporting their experiences haven't differentiated between the 20S and the 20S EVO.

QuoteIt's also the only one that will receive stereo sound from the 6.5... all others are in mono.

True - only in that we haven't heard of anyone trying the Sena 30K or Cardo PackTalk with the WHIM. (yet)

FurryOne

While we're waiting for new developments in the wireless communications game, I worked on 2 flowcharts to help navigate the waters - the first is for those who have the Boom Infotainment System, and the second is for those who just want to talk to other riders.  Hope these help.  I'll post changes as I run across them.  I limited it to only H-D, SENA, & CARDO.

Rockout Rocker Products

Nice work!

I did find this about my 20-S Evo...

20S

Can be paired with up to 8 other headsets.

Can connect with up to 7 other headsets for talking over the intercom.



*Note:

All Sena headsets can be paired together for talking over the intercom but the number of headsets that can talk to each other at the same time depends on the maximum number that each headset allows and must match the lowest maximum. For instance, the 20S can connect to 7 other 20S headsets for a maximum number of 8 connected headsets. But, if the 20S is paired to a 10S then the maximum number of connected headsets changes because the 10S can only support a maximum of 4 connected headsets.
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FurryOne

December 23, 2017, 06:47:34 PM #22 Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 06:52:32 PM by FurryOne
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on December 23, 2017, 08:15:23 AM
Nice work!

Thanks!  I've tried to clean it up more in the attached revision.

QuoteI did find this about my 20-S Evo...

Can be paired with up to 8 other headsets.
Can connect with up to 7 other headsets for talking over the intercom.

While I realize that the 20S/20S EVO states "up to 8...", what I'm reading of people's experiences is that once
they go over 3 pairings the links become very fragile, so I limited it to 3 for best experience.

I'm finally starting to read people's experiences with the 30K and PackTalk - both good and bad.  I hope to put out a
summary of what I've found in a month or so, but for now it's wait & listen(read).

I'll be ordering the WHIM probably in January, and after the Holidays I'll be contacting Sena to find out if they're going to update the 30K to work in stereo with the WHIM, or produce an H-D 30K, or what.

FurryOne

Not much happening on the headset front, so I'd explain why the H-D version of the 20S EVO headset is better than the Sena 20S EVO.  As mentioned before, you can use the Sena on the H-D WHIM, but you'll get monaural audio, not stereo.  Sena makes both headsets, and they make both the Sena Freewire and H-D WHIM, but the big difference is in the Bluetooth Audio Codec.  Sena still uses the SBC (Sub-Band Coding) codec in their headsets and the Freewire, while H-D spec'd out the newer aptX codec in their Headsets and the WHIM. While the aptX codec will talk to SBC equipped stuff, it falls back to mono.  I'm not sure why this is so but it probably has to do with compression methods.  Why doesn't Sena use aptX?  I'd guess that they just didn't think the difference in audio quality would be noticeable at 70mph.  When I talked to Sena support they mentioned that they'd received lots of requests for stereo pairing with H-D's WHIM.  Whether they upgrade their sets or not depends on breaking compatibility with their other models, including their Freewire.  Also, they may have a contractual non-compete agreement with H-D for a specified timeframe.

Anyways, I've revised my flowchart to show the codecs, and if you like to read about the differences between SBC and aptX, read it here:  https://www.lifewire.com/aptx-bluetooth-codec-4151667

FurryOne

Here's an update on the wireless headset situation.

One guy on YouTube posted a short video showing that a Cardo PacTalk will pair with the Boom! System, but that's all he showed - now comment on audio, and no comment on voice controls, though I did comment that if it pairs it should work fine with the voice commands.

I installed my WHIM, got Wireless Headset support turned on at my local Dealer (1/2 hour charge) and paired my Sena 30K  just fine.  Of course, as preciously noted, no stereo via the Boom! but the 30K has built-in FM stereo radio.  Voice commands to the Boom worked fine.  One setup note - before you try pairing, turn off your phone's bluetooth if you've already paired it with your Boom, then pair your Boom & Headset.  Once that's done you can reenable the phone's bluetooth and be able to do phone calls through the headset->Boom->phone.

Weird thing - I bought the 30K pair because I have 2 helmets.  I was hoping to pair my main helmet to the rider position and the 2nd to the passenger position, then use either one when riding since both rider & passenger bluetooth positions are enabled in the Boom system - nope!... the passenger headset can't issue voice commands through the Boom System. So in order to use the other helmet I'll have to erase the 1st rider pairing and pair the 2nd helmet in it's place, and vice versa to reuse the 1st helmet. Ugh!  I guess even Harley doesn't like backseat drivers!

FurryOne

OK, so I've lived with a set of Sena 30K headsets for a while now, along with the WHIM, and here's my comments.

The 30K works fine with the WHIM for commands and phone, though as mentioned numerous times before, your audio is in monaural , not stereo.  I can live with that.  What I can't live with is the crappy speakers Sena includes.  I have a set in a 3/4 helmet and 1/2 helmet, and neither are any good when riding.  When you start to increase the volume to hear them, they start to distort the crap out of the sound.  I ended up removing them, and hooking up a set of earbuds to the earbud port - they sound fine, so it's not the WHIM/30K interface.  I'm looking now for a better set of speakers to splice into the connector.

I haven't been able to try out the bike2bike stuff yet.   :pop:

FurryOne

June 12, 2018, 06:49:54 PM #26 Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 07:03:44 PM by FurryOne
Another few weeks, another update.  As previously mentioned, the Sena speakers SUCK!  I found decent replacements to be the UCLEAR digital speakers - about $40.  Just unscrew the junk Sena speaker connector and plug the UCLEAR digitals in the front of the Sena mount right next to the mic boom.  What a difference!  On my 3/4 helmet it was simple.  On my Bell Pitboss 1/2 helmet I got tired of using the earplugs, so the best option was to get a set of speaker pouches and slip a set of UCLEAR speakers in them.  H-D sells a set that really look nice, but they have a major drawback - the section that slips between the helmet and the liner is a bit too short.  IMC Motorcom has a set (#70 PADS) that are decent, and the section that inserts is much wider - I went with them.  Once I got the pouches installed and the speakers inserted I noticed that when I drew the chinstrap tight, the pouches stuck out. (Arrrgghh!)  I had to tack them to the chinstraps with needle & thread.  Now when I cinch the chinstrap, the pouches follow.

FurryOne

It's been a while since I posted anything about this subject, so...

I got tired of the monaural audio when using my Sena 30K headset and the Harley WHiM.  Let's face it - the audio is going to be pretty crappy no matter what you do if you have a 1/2 helmet.  I have a Bell PitBoss w/IMC speaker flaps, and a Scorpion EXO-C110 1/2 helmet with the included speaker flaps, and in spite of switching to the UCLEAR digital speakers, the audio still sucks at 60MPH - though not as bad as it did with the original Sena speakers.  It would seem that a full helmet or earplugs would be the only real way to get any quality sound at that speed.

While testing the WHiM/Sena 30K I discovered that the 30K will not go into Mesh mode when its connected to the WHiM.  I don't know why this is so, because the WHiM connects via Bluetooth, and the Mesh is WiFi.  I called Sena "Tech Support" but talking to them was like talking to monkeys trained to read the script off a computer.  They didn't have a clue as to how their own equipment worked.  This was the last straw for the WHiM.  I disconnected it and installed Sena's Freewire.  With the Freewire I got the same voice command support of the Boom as I did with the WHiM, and a bonus of real stereo audio, plus, like the WHiM, once you pair the Freewire and the 30K headset, it re-pairs automatically.  With the Freewire, the 30K went right into Mesh mode just fine and connected to my other helmet with a 30K right away (in Public mode).  Note: Sena's "Tech Support" stated that the 30K would not go into Mesh mode when connected to the WHiM or even their own Freewire!)

For 2019 Harley has updated their Boom! system to the 6.5GTS version with a full touchscreen and Apple CarPlay.  It still requires a WHiM or Freewire to go wireless (as far as I can tell).  So I've updated my chart to reflect this.

FurryOne

A bit more information -

I emailed Cardo to ask if they'd tested their Packtalk Bold with a Sena Freewire.  Their reply was that their Packtalk would connect to the Freewire, but it wouldn't work with a CB.  That reply was a bit confusing since the Boom! System controls the CB, so I emailed back to ask what Bluetooth Protocols their headset supported -

A2DP - Advanced Audio Distribution Protocol
AVRCP - Audio/Video Remote Control Protocol
HSP - HeadSet Protocol
HFP - Hands Free protocol

... The answer was that they were unfamiliar with those protocols.  Ugh!  A low level "technician".

Harley's headsets use aptX codecs for better sound quality than Sena & Cardo's SBC codec headsets, but Harley uses DIP - Device ID Profile to screw with anything but Harley branded Bluetooth headsets when connected to a WHiM.

FurryOne

Another day, another upgrade - Sena has upgraded the firmware for their 30K headset to v2.0 (from v1.0.3).  This adds a few items...

Added Audio Multitasking feature in Bluetooth Intercom mode
Added Music Sharing feature in Mesh Intercom mode
Improved Group Intercom and Multi-way Intercom performance
Minor bug fixes with Multi-way Intercom with two paired smartphones
Minor bug fixes with Intercom-Audio Overlay Sensitivity feature

I have yet to try out the voice commands yet, so one 30K headset is at v2.0, and my other one remains at v1.0.3.

FLHXHS

FurryOne,

Thanks for all of your work on this. I have a 2017 FLHXSE and the SENA 20 x2 didn't think the WHIM -should- be necessary as Harley-Davidson GT has Bluetooth functionality. But one more $400 touch right... plus plus.

Anyhow - if I do anything I'll go Freewire it looks like after reading this thread.

I do both solo and 2up. I like to have commas with my wife or if a buddy is on their motorcycle. Tunes are important, and the earbuds work best for me. I run Shure earbuds, expensive but sound awesome.

The GPS talking to me is secondary, and if needed I'd use my iPhone for speaking directions.

Thanks for the efforts and your updates.

Next see if you can get a GTS to work in the 2014-2018 touring motorcycles. They're working on it on other forums...

Have a good one.

H
2017 FLHXSE
2009 FLHX - DMC Sidecar - Tuned by Lonewolf

FurryOne

Quote from: FLHXHS on October 29, 2018, 12:29:04 PM
I run Shure earbuds, expensive but sound awesome.

For Winter I added Bell's zip-in liner on my Pit Boss 1/2 helmet and removed the extra plastic pockets I'd installed to hold the speakers.  The Bell's liner actually has nice speaker pockets that hold the speakers right up to my ears, giving me the best sound i've been able to obtain with a 1/2 helmet (& UClear speakers).

QuoteNext see if you can get a GTS to work in the 2014-2018 touring motorcycles. They're working on it on other forums...

If I was so inclined I'd replace my 6.5GT with the Sony AX-5000 w/Volunteer Audio H-D interface for $1K less.

edin508

FurryOne, first off thanks for all of your work and knowledge on this subject.  And if I am reading all of this correct, I don't need to get the HD WHIM for bluetooth connectivity to my BOOM?  I can just get the Freewire to connect to my 20S to the bike and it even sounds better with all of the same functions?

FurryOne

Quote from: edin508 on November 27, 2018, 02:55:40 PM
FurryOne, first off thanks for all of your work and knowledge on this subject.  And if I am reading all of this correct, I don't need to get the HD WHIM for bluetooth connectivity to my BOOM?  I can just get the Freewire to connect to my 20S to the bike and it even sounds better with all of the same functions?

Yes & no.  Yes, the Freewire will work fine as a substitute for the WHiM, but the Freewire requires the #69200865 harness to connect it to the Boom! IF your bike didn't come with the H-D 7-pin DIN harness.  The Freewire plugs into that 7-pin DIN for its Audio connection, and that # harness plugs into the connector on the top of the Boom. Also, the Freewire has a battery, but it also has a 12V lighter cord.  If you leave it plugged in, and the power switch off, it will wake up when you turn on the ignition.  I added an extra lighter outlet in my fairing and stuffed the wires for the Freewire up in there away from harm.  I also run a radar detector, and built an interface that allows me to connect it to the AUX input of the Freewire so I hear alerts.

Now for the no.  You'll actually get the best sound using the WHiM and Harley's "branded" 20S EVO headset.  Why?  Because Harley actually went a step further than other headset makers and included a better audio Codec (aptX) in the WHiM and their 20S EVO.  Sena & Cardo still use the older (SBC) codec, which is still pretty good, but not as good as the more costly aptX audio Codec.  The WHiM looks at the hardware when it handshakes with the headset, and if it doesn't see an H-D brand, it cripples the audio stream, so if you connect a Sena 20S or 30K to the WHiM you get degraded monaural audio instead of nice clean stereo.

FurryOne

An update for the Sena 30K app just came out yesterday that said:

Supported Boom! Audio 30K v2.0 and Boom! Audio N02 30K v2.0

I chatted with Sena support about this and they confirmed that they have created a Harley-Branded 30K Headset.  I have no idea when this will be available, or at what price, but it will be nice to know that we'll finally be able to buy an H-D headset with Mesh Technology and that functions with the WHiM in stereo.    :pop: