Oil pressure drops from 30 to 0

[97dyna]

The EVO motor seemed like it was running hot so I installed oil pressure gauge.  The oil pressure indicator light comes on prior to cranking and goes off at start up.  Oil pressure gauge shows 30.  Over a 15 minute ride the pressure slowly drops to 0.  But the oil pressure indicator light never comes on.  No oil leaks and the oil level is not decreasing. Prior to installing the oil pressure gauge, I removed the tappet screen and have removed and inspected after a few rides.  Both times the screen was clean.  I'm not hearing any any unusual engine noise.
So where should I start and proceed my troubleshooting?

[Wicked]

Guages are scary indicators at best. This "0" - is that at idle while hot? Idiot light still hooked up right? That switch is around a 3psi switch. What psi do you have while riding when hot?

[rigidthumper]

Another shining example of too much data, not enough information.

The system works on volume, not pressure. Pressure (as indicated on that gauge) is simply resistance to flow. If your oil light comes on before startup, that indicates the lamp and switch are working. The 30# cold indicates the pump is good, pushing thick fluid around the engine, with high resistance. As the fluid heats up, it flows more like water, so the gauge indicates this with a smaller number (less resistance to flow). At idle, there is very little RPM to spin the oil pump, compared to highway riding, where the pimp spins 3 times as fast. If the pressure drops to a true zero at highway speed, something's not right.  As long as the oil light doesn't come on while riding, then you have no issue.

[jbexeter]

As others have said and hinted at....

1/ gauges only get trusted when tripled, two out of three being right, when verified and calibrated, and when installed correctly, this is before we even get into the arguments about mechanical gauges and remote sensing electronic ones.

2/ oil itself serves two purposes, it carries heat (and particulate waste) away, and it provides lube.

3/ in *plain* bearings provided there is enough *flow* to maintain the film, pressure isn't relevant, in fact in a reciprocating big end bearing (different story for mains) pressure can be nagative, eg centripetal force draws the oil out to the big ends, provided the supply is sufficient

4/ different parts of an engine require both different pressures and different flows when working, usually this is achieved by the layout and dimensions of oil galleries etc

5/ "oil pressure gauges" usually read at a set point just after the oil pump outlet, they don't tell you anything about flow or pressure to any other part of the engine, and I have *never* seen a street automotive application where the owner would not have been *better* served by ripping out the aftermarket oil pressure gauge and fitting a decent quality oil temperature gauge

6/ in a cold engine there is no heat for the oil to carry away, so it doesn't matter much if flow takes 60 second to get up to nominal, for EVERYTHING EXCEPT PLAIN BEARINGS

7/ for plain bearings flow is everything and it matters an awful lot if it takes time to build up, and it *will* UNLESS you have hand or electric pre oiling pumps you won't have these in automotive circles) so it's all down to oil temp and viscocity, so idle that bitch on zero load for at least 60 seconds, and keep loads and rpms *light* until oil comes up to temp.

8/ turbo motors (ok not HD related yet, maybe 2018 eh) the oil carries masses of heat away from the exhaust side turbine bearing, so *always* let the bitch idle for 2 or 3 minutes before shutting it down

9/ oil pressure gauge is useless in automotive circles, oil pressure switch and light not so much, if it was me i'd wire it with a press to make switch into the starter and ignition circuits so no minimum pressure no ignition, as others have said oil pressure switch is usually of the order of 2 to 5 psi, basically bugger all.

My advice is ignore it, pull the pressure gauge and fit a temp gauge, and if you're worried fit a new pressure switch, and like a new thermostat in a car, test it before you fit it...

HTH etc

[Burnout]

By the manual (which no one reads or choose to ignore) the recommended oil for summer temps 80° is 60w oil.

To run 20/50w oil in summer temps you should have an oil cooler on it. (it doesn't say that in the manual, read between the lines...).

Also Harley motors are not pressure lubed they only need flow, the only thing that needs any real pressure is your hydraulic lifters and that is only enough to keep them full.

If your lifters are not clattering and you are getting oil return, you are good to go.
If you can't see return oil in the tank, feel the oil filter if it's hot oil is being returned.

My advice is to take the gauge off and give it to someone you don't like (watch the light).

Also your idle should not fall below 950rpm, since the motor is basically splash lubricated.
Especially cold the motor needs 1500rpm to throw the cold thick heavy oil up to lube the pistons.
Letting the motor sit there and chug to "warm up" will ruin your pistons.
It is best to run the motor at 1500 rpm until the spark plugs are warm enough to ride away without stalling.
Then take it easy until the oil tank is hot.

"You can't see an oil pressure gauge at night"   

[thumper 823]

The liquid filled O.P gauges have always worked for me .
It is in the traditional place on the engine.
True it is model "T"  technology, but it brings me some solace to look dwn at it once in awhile and see it .
You can put in higher spring rates in the relief valve, albeit I have been told it is both a good and a bad idea.

[jbexeter]

The liquid filled O.P gauges have always worked for me .
It is in the traditional place on the engine.
True it is model "T"  technology, but it brings me some solace to look dwn at it once in awhile and see it .
You can put in higher spring rates in the relief valve, albeit I have been told it is both a good and a bad idea.

Bad idea, the people who designed the engine (and specified the oil filter) know what the max safe pressure should be.

It's based on an assumption that oil being dumped by the relief valve isn't going to cool and lube the motor, and that must be a bad thing.. if it was a bad thing, manufacturers would all have saved 5 bucks and left the PRV out.

Flow is all that matters, and too much can be as bad as too little.

Oil temp gauge plus knowing your oil viscocity properties will tell you everything you need to know.

I've seen excessive oil pressure get in the seam between bearing shells and lift them, resulting in pickup and bottom end destruction, you NEED the wedge effect in the lube film

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/779/journal-bearing-lubrication

[thumper 823]

I think you are referring to "skating" .
There are people who argue it both directions and I will not pose
or pretend I know more or even less.
What I do know is I have a slightly stronger spring.
I have ridden this to the ends of the earth .
Sturgis and more, and getting ready to do it again.
Two up and very HVY.
No problems.
BUT I do use an expensive oil, and an oil cooler.
It is no proof it works or not.
It works for me.
I like seeing the 10 lbs O.P. at idle .

[Dan89flstc]

So where should I start and proceed my troubleshooting?

There is nothing to troubleshoot...

[Burnout]

So where should I start and proceed my troubleshooting?

There is nothing to troubleshoot...

Exactly!

The only trouble is a gauge is installed where there should be none.
Take the gauge for a long walk on a short pier.

[JW113]

Old thread, yes I know, but now this exact same thing is happening to ME!!


The basic info:

1992 Softail
Mostly stock
Just replaced the cases with Ultima for cracked at apex above tappet blocks
Oil pump stock
Oil: Castrol GTX 20w50
Temp: 60s-70s
Idle speed: 1000 rpm
I have both oil pressure idiot light and gauge (just added)

Symptom:
Before changing the cases, no issues what-so-ever (other than oil leaks).
Now, at start up, gauge pegs at 30psi, light off.
After 10-15 minutes of riding, the oil pressure drops considerably. Reads a tick over 0 psi doing 65 on the freeway, the oil light is not on, tappets not chattering.
At stop/idle, the light is on solid, oil gauge reads 0, but no noise from the tappets, although I've not let it idle for long lengths of time to see if  they bleed down. Might try that.
If I wind the piss out of the motor, the oil pressure goes up somewhere between 5 and 10 psi.
Oil is getting warm, and can be seen bubbling out of the return inside the tank.
Last weekend I pulled the tappet screen and pressure relief plugs, inspected, found nothing out of the ordinary.

OK, I read all of the above, and basically agree that if the tappets are not chattering, oil is getting pumped through the motor. That said, I've never had this problem of oil light on solid at idle and just off idle before. And now that there is a gauge on it, reading freakin' ZERO, that is not a comforting feeling.

So where is the leak inside the motor? Everything seems just fine until the oil (or the metal of the motor) gets the slightest bit warm.

-JW

[MikeL]

I know this is an evo post but my 1980 shovel will peg the oil pressure gauge with 60W oil when cold as it heats up it goes to between 5 and 10 psi at idle. At highway 35 to 40 psi hot.
97dyna say he felt it was running hot. Could it be sumping??? Maybe the breather gear isn't turning or sheared off the scavenge side woodruff key in the oil pump. I had a 1985 evo do that and it still returned oil to the tank just not enough it really messed with trouble shooting cause it was still pumping back to the tank.

                                                                                                       MIKE 

[david lee]

i flicked my shovel gauge yrs ago for not giving a correct reading

[Flhfxd]

Has any work been done on the oil pump recently? As in... pump gaskets replaced? Had a similar issue with mine and it turned out to be the the pretty rubberized gaskets were just a bit too thick. Replaced with paper ones and problem was solved.

[JW113]

As a matter of fact...

When I assembled with the new cases, used James gaskets, which had silicone coated steel gaskets for the oil pump. Although I think I used that one on the pump-to-case gasket, which is the scavenge side, yes? At any rate, I'm going to replace the whole pump.

I rode home from work, air temp was maybe 80deg. 30psi at start up, then dropped to 20psi after 2 miles on the freeway, then 10 psi after 4 miles, and shortly after that, a tick over zero, just enough to keep the light off. If the rpms dropped below 1500-2000, light would flicker on, and on solid below 1500. I'm sorry, but you know what, this ain't right. Something is broken. I don't have the time to troubleshoot this to death, so will start with the shotgun approach and hope a new oil pump takes care of it.

-JW

[MikeL]

As a matter of fact...

When I assembled with the new cases, used James gaskets, which had silicone coated steel gaskets for the oil pump. Although I think I used that one on the pump-to-case gasket, which is the scavenge side, yes? At any rate, I'm going to replace the whole pump.

I rode home from work, air temp was maybe 80deg. 30psi at start up, then dropped to 20psi after 2 miles on the freeway, then 10 psi after 4 miles, and shortly after that, a tick over zero, just enough to keep the light off. If the rpms dropped below 1500-2000, light would flicker on, and on solid below 1500. I'm sorry, but you know what, this ain't right. Something is broken. I don't have the time to troubleshoot this to death, so will start with the shotgun approach and hope a new oil pump takes care of it.

-JW

This was many yrs ago for me. Not an EVO but..... I replaced an oil pump on a shovel with an S&S oil pump. I had to purchase a drill guide plate and drill an 1/8th hole at an angle using the plate to make the S&S pump work on that case. Don't know what would happen if this procedure was not executed.
Maybe the cases you purchased need a specific oil pump. Having an oil light flicker to me is like a ticking time bomb.

                                                                                                       MIKE

[JW113]

Well my friend, we are in complete agreement there! And this is not a flicker, is it a solid ON at idle and above. The oil pressure light means only one thing to me: NO OIL PRESSURE. How can that be good?

And I'm with you 100% on the new cases thing. The cases are Ultima. Guess what oil pump I ordered?

-JW

[MikeL]

Well my friend, we are in complete agreement there! And this is not a flicker, is it a solid ON at idle and above. The oil pressure light means only one thing to me: NO OIL PRESSURE. How can that be good?

And I'm with you 100% on the new cases thing. The cases are Ultima. Guess what oil pump I ordered?

-JW

JW Here another thing I do. I don't use multi vis lube oil in my bikes. Ages range from 1951-2007. I use 60sae full synthetic in all of them. A lot of people will say "oh the horror" especially when in a cold climate. Yes I live in Florida now, but I used 60sae when I lived in NJ just would let them warm up a bit B4 hitting the road when cold outside
I like seeing 10-12psi consistently at idle hot and 60sae does it for me.

                                                                                                       MIKE

[JW113]

I have no argument against 60wt oil, except in winter I find it makes the motor spin over slow. Especially with my 113", which won't hardly spin over with 10wt on a hot day! But I'm pretty sure that heavier oil is not the solution to this problem. A possible band aid, but I want to fix it. Before the case swap, it ran perfect with 20w50, and the only time the oil light was on was went the ign was on and the motor not running. So clearly I f'd something up swapping the cases.

-JW

[Sycho01]

What I would do is verify the oil press gauge is acurate at the bottom of the scale. Gauges are usually calibrated for accuracy in the middle of the scale. Ex: running press 30#'s the gauge would be a 60# gauge. The gauge may not be aaccurate at the bottom or top of the scale.
A cheap gauge most likely would not be acurate.
You could always swap out the gauge for 10# gauge if you have acess to one just to see if your gauge is ok.
I have seen many bad gauges.
I hope this info helps some.

[fbn ent]

To the OP...Ditch the gauge. As stated, your idiot light and lifters will tell you all you need to know.

[JW113]

OK, one more time...

I only put the gauge on because the idiot light is on solid at idle and perhaps up to 1500-1700 rpm. Would you really ride around town with the oil light on all the time? And at freeway speed (3000rpm), it's only registering about 2 or 3 psi after the motor warms up a little, as in after 4 miles? Sorry folks but that sounds like a problem to me.

-JW

[fbn ent]

"The oil pressure indicator light comes on prior to cranking and goes off at start up.  Oil pressure gauge shows 30.  Over a 15 minute ride the pressure slowly drops to 0.  But the oil pressure indicator light never comes on."

Does the pressure drop to zero on the gauge during the ride?

[JW113]

Yes.

-JW

[thumper 823]

My EVO  idles at about  10 lbs no matter how hot it is .
No matter where it is .
Like many have said -
Swap out gauge,  see if that changes the results.

[JW113]

10 psi is a whole lot more than 0 psi and a glowing red idiot light. Removing the gauge is not going to solve the low oil pressure problem.

-JW

[fbn ent]

Lost my oil pressure on the TC because of a bad (real BAD) inner cam bearing. Would be ok albeit lower until it warmed up....Just sayin...

[thumper 823]

I have been following this loosely -
Have you tried a new gauge?
Next- all oils have about the same poor points when hot, a 60 weight will not be much more in viscosity if any.
It is a false premise.

[JW113]

The first thing I tried was another oil pressue sender unit. The second one behaived exactly like the first. I only added the gauge just to see what was happening, and why the light was on. It's on because there is no oil pressue  after the motor warms up a little. I don't need another oil gauge to confirm. I need fix the oil pressue problem. Hopefully this coming weekend. Will let you know what I find.

-JW

[thumper 823]

There are not too many tight places in an HD engine, not like flat bearing engines in cars where 0.003 is a normal tolerance.
So-I am going to have to susppect the pump.

Prolly the relief spring I would hope.
That would be my goto.

[Burnout]

Oil: Castrol GTX 20w50

Uh, Houston, we have a problem....

That is not suitable oil for an air cooled roller bearing motor, that stuff turns the consistency of water when it gets hot.

Try some Valvoline VR1 racing oil, or Harley 20-50 and see what happens.
Then I'd put a cooler on it...

[koko3052]

Oil: Castrol GTX 20w50

Uh, Houston, we have a problem....

That is not suitable oil for an air cooled roller bearing motor, that stuff turns the consistency of water when it gets hot.

Try some Valvoline VR1 racing oil, or Harley 20-50 and see what happens.
Then I'd put a cooler on it...

No oil pressure means....NO OIL PRESSURE! 

[Burnout]

No hot oil pressure indicated.

A 60 lb gauge isn't going to show much movement at 3-5#.

Are the lifters rattling? If the lifters are not collapsing it has enough oil pressure.

[thumper 823]

No hot oil pressure indicated.

A 60 lb gauge isn't going to show much movement at 3-5#.

Are the lifters rattling? If the lifters are not collapsing it has enough oil pressure.

Unhook the line to the filter , and crank her up.
I always do this at oil change anyway to get rid of the residual in the system (plus I have a cooler inline)
You should have a flow out of it or to it f you unhook the wrong one.
Do it when it is hot .

[JW113]

I thought post 10 desribed what is happening pretty well. But, to summarize:

Was running perfectly, NO issues what-so-ever, and yes, with Castrol GTX.
I found the engine case had cracked, so I replaced them.
NOW I have a problem.
"Pegged at 30psi" sort of eludes to a 30psi gauge, yes?
Oil is getting warm. Not hot. As in maybe 160 deg?

I've never ran an oil cooler on an Evo. My opinion, they don't need one. On a hot day around here, high 90s, the oil gets up to perhaps 220 deg. The vast majority of the time, it's in the 80s or below, and the oil runs about 200 deg. In either casen no BFD.

Not to get into an oil debate, but Harley-Davidson does not have the air cooled engine market cornered. In my younger days, I rode air cooled Hondas. Guess what the factory recommends? (hint: it begins with a C) I drove an air cooled Chevy Corvair for 20 years, maybe 1/4 million miles, using Castrol 20W50. Guess what? No problems what-so-ever. Lots and lots of Volkswagen beetles out there runing regular old oil. Need I go on?

Use what you want, I have no evidence at all that says there is anything wrong with using non-Harley oil in a Harley-Davidson. My opinion, it's all a marketing giminck.

I put a new Ultima oil pump on last night. What a PITA. Will fire it up in a while and see what happens.

-JW

[JW113]

Well this is certainly turning into a real fun project. I installed a new Ultima oil pump onto a new Ultima engine case. What could go wrong? Although I have not had it running long enough to get the oil warm, it certainly has a lot of oil pressure now. As in, the 30psi gauge I have on it, the needle spins all the way around to the zero stop! But alas, there is some bad news.

Now it is POURING oil from somewhere behind the oil pump. I pulled the cover, checked everything out. Ultima provides new mount screws with the pump, and I had used those. But they are longer than the stock screws. I measured the depth of the holes in the case, thickness of pump body and cover, and felt that perhaps the screws were bottoming out before the pump got tightened. I put the cover back on with the stock screws, but that was not the problem, still a major leak.

So now the decision, spend an hour or more fighting with that C ring on the pump drive shaft to get pump off from the outside, or spend an hour or more pulling the exhaust and nose cone and remove the retaining ring from the inside.

I think I'll just start drinking...

-JW

p.s. if anybody has a slick way or handy tool to remove that damn oil pump C ring, do tell!

[thumper 823]

I am happy for you that you are closing in on it.!
As I said B4 -oil viscosity has little to do with it once hot, albeit I suspected
the relief spring.
Next-AFAIK gaskets are a huge problem!
If you take it back apart compare old ones  with new as there are several versions of the pump
orifices.

[MikeL]

When you get the oil pump off compare the "low pressure pump" with the ultuma pump. Kind of curious to see what or if there is a difference.

                                                                                                       MIKE

[JW113]

By low pressure pump, do you mean the stock pump? The Ultima pump that I bought is their "regular" pump, not their high volume one. As has been stated by many, a Harley-Davidson V twin doesn't really need a ton of oil flowing through it. Perhaps in a very few applications where oil is being used to cool the motor, but even then I think the stock pump does just fine in that department.

I'll pop the nose cone this morning and pull the pump, see what is going on. By the amount of oil dripping, I can't hardly see how it is from the gasket surfaces. Perhaps that plug on the back side of the pump?

Oh, and one more thing...

May the 4th be with you. And me!

[attach=0]

-JW

[rageglide]

These pumps will leak pretty good if the pump to case gasket slips slightly out of place.  This results in the scavenge cavity not being fully seperated from the through hole used to bolt the pump to the case.  BTDT

[JW113]

You don't say?


It turns out the problem was the ham-fisted gorilla that worked on the bike.
[attach=0]

Back together with a new gasket, seems to running perfectly. Oil pressure pegs the gauge at cold start, after the oil warms up it's got 20psi at 2000rpm, and about 3psi at idle. Oil light never comes on. I went for a 25 mile ride, the air temp here is 75 deg, I was doing 80mph most of the time, oil never got higher than 180 deg.

So back to the original problem, oil light comes on and no oil pressure below 1800 rpms. I gave the stock oil pump a real good look over, can't find anything at all wrong with it. It was working perfectly on the stock engine case, and this problem happened right after replacing the case with Ultima. I put an Ultima pump on it, now it's working perfectly. Some sort of incompatibility with Ultima and stock oil pump? That's all I can figure. And good luck asking Ultima about it. ZERO tech support. That's always been the thing I love about S&S, easy to get help and they have a moutain of tech literature. Ultima.... nichts, nada, niente. But their stuff is cheap!


-JW

[rageglide]

 

That's taking the 'slip' to the next level!  I guess it's a good thing Evo's filter oil on it's way to the oil tank...

[Dan89flstc]

Oil: Castrol GTX 20w50

Uh, Houston, we have a problem....

That is not suitable oil for an air cooled roller bearing motor, that stuff turns the consistency of water when it gets hot.

Tossing a BS flag on this one...

20w50 GTX was pretty much the go to oil for air cooled engines since it came out in 1966 (the first 20w50 oil).

The brand of oil was not the problem here.

EVO engines do not overheat the oil, no cooler is needed unless heavily modified.

[rredneckn2]

I owned several vw beetles in my teens and 20/50 Gtx was THE oil for them. Bob Woods told me years ago he runs it in his bikes.

[capn]

JW, great that you hung in there and got it done.Sometimes this old iron fights us at every turn but you just gotta fight back . Good on you bro.

[thumper 823]

This will sound snotty (snitty)....LOL
But oil reports are publically available for all to read, and I have actually spent hours reading them.
I suggest you all knuckle dwn buckle dwn and do your share and not be swallowed up by internet BS!
They all say hot pour point are all about the same (viscosity ) whilst cold pour points will vary a LOT even within the same weights but different brands.
I have seen the test by objective scientist testers.
I have had bearing bandit (one are bearing testers) explained as to the hoax they are.
There are MANY ways to cheat and get the numbers you want.
I am NOT about to recommend oils on what I know from reports.
I will just say this the top four are usually and always the top four.
Further, probably the worst oil rated made will not ruin your engine right away.
So again to actually think oil pressure will be raised by adding a higher viscosity is wrong thinking
according to every engineered oil report out there.

[capn]

So why not run 30 weight then?

[Pete_Vit]

To the OP...Ditch the gauge. As stated, your idiot light and lifters will tell you all you need to know.

Ditch that pressure gauge and get a temp gauge 

[Burnout]

Right there in the front section of the manual (the part no one reads)
For even a twin cam motor it says,
"in ambient temps over 80° to use 60w oil"
Not 20-50
To be able to use 20-50 oil in high ambient temps you need a cooler.

Also 20-50 oil from different mfgrs is different oil.
Just because it says 20-50 on the label does not make it the same.
The SAE has sold us out, and the new oils found on the shelf in most auto parts stores is no longer suitable for use in a Harley.

I never said Castrol 20 50 was a BAD oil, it is not suitable for use in a Harley.
I can hear the difference running fully warmed up.
And I can see the difference in viscosity when I pull the drain plug on hot oil.

What is your aversion to running the recommended oil?
So you can say "I did it my way?"

If you are not going to install an oil coler,
Try a tank full of Valvoline VR-1 60w oil and see the difference for yourself.
Might be cheaper than the HD oil I would use.
The VR-1 has the zinc we need and very similar viscosity to the HD oil.

I have an 87 EVO that must have 100k miles on the original motor never been rebuilt, crank, pistons, rings, heads, UNTOUCHED!
I have beaten it like an ugly stepchild, broken everything around the motor riding it like I stole it.
It has run for HOURS (many) at full throttle through the Calif central valley.
It has more miles on the rear wheel only, than some bikes get on both.
It has more miles doing burnouts, than some bikes ever see.
No low oil pressure problems.
No lifter failure.
It might even have the original INA inner cam bearing in it! It's been so long I can't recall.
No smoke, no oil consumption, no signs of giving up.
No mods other than cam carb and exhaust. Stock ignition also.
It has always had an oil cooler on it and has always run 20-50w (primarily HD brand).

I would NEVER consider putting CASTROL GTX in the oil tank!!! Even with a cooler!!!

[thumper 823]

I am not an oil engineer-
However, am a very good student of most other disciplines.
I will relate this to you-  years ago when 20-50 Penz Oil  race oil hit the market (early 70s)-
Harley was still saying we had to run the 60 weight crap and even heavier!!.
I switched to 20/50 Pennz Oil anyway, and guess what?
It never blew up .
I rode it  Coast to coast, Sturgis and more !etc etc.
Years latter HD finally got on board with 20/50 too.
Same story with very large diesel engines.
They are now running zero thirty, or 5W something.
They have all dropped the straight weight nonsense too.
In fact, the Best oil made has a pressure rating of over one hundred thousand pounds and is only a  5/30 !
Compare that with most oils!
lots are below 80,000 Psi.
So again -cold point viscosity tells nothing of the real attributes to an oil.
As time marches along we have seen all engines drop the high viscosity requirements.
To answer your question - Can 30 weight be used in your HD?
I am unable to ANSWER THAT QUESTION  or I would be just another internet BS artist.
I would ask a real live oil engineer if I was on the quest, and I can guess the answer.
However, I can assure you the hot viscosity is no more than an oil rated higher.
Again i do hope you all read over some objective oil reports.
I find great freedom in not being harnessed to the internet BS, and WOW IS THERE A LOT OF IT.
For the first read start over at "Bob the oil guy"-that is simple enough.
Then start looking at "oil test reports"
For those of you that advocate HD oil-wait until you find out what is (or is not)
Remember a PA will buy the stuff from the cheapest bidder by the trainload with a Harley label on it.

[Burnout]

My perspective is just how the oil looks when drained hot.
And how the motor sounds hot.
Leave out all the chemistry and pressure ratings.
The heavier oil cushions a lot of engine noise.
To me noise = wear, combined with the experience I have had with my EVO as testament.

I will wave off the comment about HD and oil recommendation.
Because that has remained through the Twin Cam line even with the oiling system changes.
Regarding oil coolers they are not a fancy trinket, look at the SVO high output models that come with coolers.
Coolers have always been offered as an accy, mostly due of the MoCo's marketing strategy.

[thumper 823]

This is on the very  edge of oil as war I go.
To be objective and truthful-
Oil viscosity measured at a drain plug is like doing a valve job with a chain saw.
One has to set poor points measured and regulated with all the same hoops to jump to go through.
The best part?
It has already been done for you!

This does not take much research to understand 60 weight oil @ 180 deg has the same viscosity as 5w30.
To say much else you have to argue with experts in the world of chemical oil labs analysis.
I am taking my leave with this nonsense.
You notice I have NOT mentioned a brand-because when you start your research it will become GLARINGLY obvious who is the makers of the best oils.
Again I suggest you all do your own research.
It is just not that hard.

Here is an EZ read to get you started-

https://www.cycleworld.com/sport-rider/oils-well-that-ends-well-part-2#page-6

PS I dont sell oils.

[Burnout]

All oil and other religious topics should be locked at an early stage.

[thumper 823]

I don't think I /we are advocating a certain brand of oil.
At least I am not.
I did not mention Castrol for better or worse. .
In fact, i am advocating everyone does their own research rather than be led dwn the paths of arrogance and or ignorance.
Knowledge is the key to freedom.
To ignore what is b4 us and be led by the nose is just plain stupid.
To enjoy the deeper thinking of engineering is a pleasure for me.
To stay objective and not inset emotion is a lot of peoples shortcomings.
As I stated -everyone should read the reports
Viscosity is only one of the values to look at.
PSI is prolly a lot more important.
If we read the reports and charts there is no reason for oil wars anyway.
just go with what shows you to be the best.
Simple

[Dan89flstc]

Right there in the front section of the manual (the part no one reads)
For even a twin cam motor it says,
"in ambient temps over 80° to use 60w oil"
Not 20-50
To be able to use 20-50 oil in high ambient temps you need a cooler.

Evidently you don`t read the manual either...

Here`s what it says in the service manual for an `89 Evo:

[attach=0,msg1295736]

Service Manual 2016:
[attach=1,msg1295736]

[MikeL]

What happened to 97dyna??? This conversation got a little off track in regards to his problem..........
JW what happened to you happened to me also. Now when I do external oil pump work I contact cement the gasket onto the pump body and to the cover. This keeps the gasket in place and also helps keep the gasket from squeezing out.
I have a few bikes, Pan, Shovel Evo and twin cams. I use 60w works for all.


                                                                                                       MIKE

[JW113]

You beat me to it, Dan.


In fact, the manual basically says "use 20w50, but if  you can't get 20w50, use the straight weights but only about the temperatures listed".

[attach=0]

And my TC manual suggests some diesel oils if you can't get HD. And note, they're ALL multi-vis.

[attach=1]

Regarding an oil cooler. You ONLY use an oil cooler if you need it. Too cool oil is worse than too hot oil. By it's very nature, internal combustion engines create a lot of water, as that's one of the by-products of combustion. Much of it finds its way into the crankcase, and thus the oil. Which then turns to acid. The only way to ensure the water is not in the oil is for the oil to get hot. As in, higher than the boiling point of water.

Twin cams, with their lean FI air/fuel ratios and oil cooled pistons, no problem. Pans/Shovels, with their iron cylinders, no problem. Evos? Stock-ish Evos? Unless you are running hard on a very hot day, the oil never really gets much higher than 212deg. At least mine have not. So yes, a problem. As I posted earlier, did about 30 miles at 80mph on a 75deg day, and the oil never got over 180deg. Think I need an oil cooler??? What I need (and I do) is to change the oil a lot!

I think the ONLY time, riding an EVO, that I thought an oil cooler might be nice was riding west on I-40 out of Needles, CA, in July, uphill on a long ass grade, into a headwind, with  air temp of 117 deg. Yes, the oil got pretty smoking hot, no doubt. Probably should have slowed down and coaxed the bike along in 3rd gear, but you know how stupid kid can be.

My philosophy on oil: if what you're using is working for you, use it!

-JW

[JW113]

Hey Mikel, it's funny you mention that. When I was surfing around to see if anybody had a slick way to pop the outer C ring off, I saw a video by Tatro Machine. Did not learn and C ring tricks, but watched him put an oil pump on an Evo motor. He used some Gaska-cinch on the gasket, and I thought "oh man, I sure hope you don't have to remove that crap any time soon". In general, I hate gluing gaskets to aluminum surfaces, as you (or at least I) do more damage to the metal getting them back off than what benefit it provides. But, after my little incedent, might have to rethink that.


Actually, had I pre-started all 6 screws (which I did the second time), would have saved myself a lot of work. Instead I just dangled the gasket from the top two, snugged them up, then put the cover on. Live and learn!

-JW

[thumper 823]

I have been using 20/50  in Harleys since the early 1970s.
It is more like HD does not understand modern lubrication (along with a bunch of other things.)


 

[fbn ent]

  The way those charts read I'd be doing 7 oil changes a season......NOT!  :slap:S

[Hossamania]

Aren't those charts based on regular oil, as opposed to synthetic? Does synthetic change the structure of those charts?

[rageglide]

JW, Worst situation I can remember was when we were stuck in traffic in Austin... blistering hot and your Hi-4 started acting up.  So... I'd say an oil cooler is probably appropriate for riding in states that are hot as hell and government is stupid enough not to allow lane splitting.   

[JW113]

The way those charts read I'd be doing 7 oil changes a season......NOT!  :slap:S

Is anybody actually reading the text about the chart? It says "USE 20W50". For all temperature conditions. End of story! It also says DON'T use 50 or 60 if the temp is cold.

-JW

[JW113]

JW, Worst situation I can remember was when we were stuck in traffic in Austin... blistering hot and your Hi-4 started acting up.  So... I'd say an oil cooler is probably appropriate for riding in states that are hot as hell and government is stupid enough not to allow lane splitting.   

Yeah that was pretty hot in Austin, but that was sitting at a standstill, on the freeway, in 100+ deg. No load on the engine, just no air flow for cooling, and yes the Hi-4 bit the farm. I don't think the oil was complaining though. That time out of Needles was the only time I've ever been rolling along on a bike when it went into spontaneous detonation because the engine was so hot. Dunno. Both cases, pretty hot. Hot weather sucks.


-JW

[thumper 823]

a HOT day in Sturgis, - one can spend over an hour doing flat foot through the twn light to ligh never get out of 1st gear!
Over a 100 deg heat with a million other bikes beside you.
Never a problem for me.

[fbn ent]

The way those charts read I'd be doing 7 oil changes a season......NOT! 

Is anybody actually reading the text about the chart? It says "USE 20W50". For all temperature conditions. End of story! It also says DON'T use 50 or 60 if the temp is cold.

-JW

Well JW, obviously I didn't. Thanks for pointing that out 

As for flat footing in Sturgis, that is the main reason I run Synthetics although I manage to avoid most of it....

[MikeL]

JW  If and when the time comes to remove the glued gaskets off aluminum zip strip works quite well. Also if you have it auto parts store carb cleaner in a paint the can works good also.
When removing the oil pump I remove the c clip and pitch it in the garbage can. I replace it with axial retaining ring that can be installed with circlip angle pliers. I'd send a picture but havn't figured that out yet.
No cooler no problem use Synthetic


                                                                                                       MIKE

[MikeL]

I guess I figured out the picture situation 

                                                                                                 MIKE

[guppymech]

JW, if you don't already have some, get some Hylomar Universal Blue or Hylomar M grade.  It's a great non hardening sealant that can hold gaskets in place and won't plug oil galleys like RTV can.

http://www.hylomarsealant.com/_resources/_html/products.html

[JW113]

Mike, I was wondering HD did not use a standard external retaining ring instead of that wire C clip. If it comes to it, may give that a try next time.

Guppy, yes I have Hylomar and used to use it all the time. On paper gaskets, anyway. These days I love the Foamet type gaskets. Don't need sealer, don't stick to the metal, and can be reused. And if the mating surfaces are flat, don't leak either. I had not thought about Hylomar on the oil pump gasket. Perhaps the only reason I might be concerned is that even with Hylomar, a little bit oozes out of the seam after tightened, and I'm not sure I'd want that stuff in the oil pump or plunger valve.

-JW

[remington007]

Years ago i tried a circlip instead of the c-clip. There was contact from the eyes of the clip with the outer cover.

[KatalogKarl]

JW. following thread here. Glad you found out problem of loss oil pressure. Crappy workmanship especially in the oiling areas causes more headaches. Been there. Especially when someone else does not pay attention. Okay so the thread is changed more or less to oil. My 87(32k miles) has had issues yes with a H4 ignition shitting out as a dyna as well. Was never a problem when I lived north. Heat blows. Ran 20/50 as it is in my manual but not here in FL. it may last about 100 or 200 miles before problem arises as yours. 1k or 900 at idle oil light flickers and oil pressure not readable. All units changed Gauges and sending units. So I started with single weight and had success until recently. A 200 mile 95 air temp jaunt with the Ol Lady and when oil got up into 175 and 220 temp( wanted to burn the water off oil) not until back into civilization did oil light begin flickering. I did not panic. Oil pump was changed a few years ago to a good used S&S. Once engine is revved light goes out. Ok so I will ask and Sending me a PM is better, I have been out and away from HTTP and instead of dinosaur oil what is protection best for my 87 EVO. (Not shovel) since I have plenty of previous for them. Just asking since you are somewhat in same temp at times?.karl

[JW113]

Hey Karl, yes it does get on the hot side here in San Jose, but only for a few days a year. Most of the time it's in the 70s or low 80s. I think the oil light flickering at idle on a hot day is normal, even says so in the HD owners manual. Especially if just raising the rpm slightly above idle causes it to go off. In my case, the oil light was on solid, and I had to raise the rpm by a lot to get it to go off. I think yours is probably fine.

-JW

[Deye76]

"I think the oil light flickering at idle on a hot day is normal"

It is. A very good old time engine builder built me a Panhead with a Shovel oil pump, at a stop light the oil light would flicker. I freaked first time it happened, he said don't sweat it, and I didn't.......for 11 years, then sold the bike and the next owner ran it for another 3 before I lost track of it. As for oil, 20w-50 is a no brain'er, especially in a Evo where everything expands & contracts more uniform than previous motors with cast iron cylinders & aluminum heads. Myself and a couple friends ran 20w-50 in our last Shovels for a lot of miles, many out west, with the same longevity as straight 60 wt. 

[JW113]

I don't understand why people don't understand that 20W50 acts like 20W when it's cold, and acts like 50W when it's hot. If you think that "thick"oil is good for any motor, why not pump the crankcase full of  axle grease?

-JW

[thumper 823]

Yup
The new rage now is 0-30 weights
HD will be q 100 years behind...
I am about to put 0/30 in a new rebuilt AC engine as soon as it gets here

[KatalogKarl]

Guys. Thank you for input. Understand multi weight oil. Used it in past. Have Shovels/Evo/ironhead in stable. Been off them for a spell. Just the little quirks between them can drive ya nuts. Took thumpers 823 link and read it. So much info or dis-info. I run one of the top 4 promoted oils. Its race version. Just was not sure. Will try a change of oil pump spring to keep up pressure. Or maybe when its 100 degrees and the ol lady and I are out  and a little light flicker could be a sign to pull over and grab a cold one. Since my evo is the only scoot another she can get on. Others are single rider only. Gee what a excuse to ditch the ol lady. Thanks all. JW. been out your way years ago and even ventured up to Sacramento via scoot. For the few times there never got used to the 6 lane highways and jerks driving. But again even in Bunghole FL some doozies here. Just uppity in age and vehicle driven. (horse,car, bicycle, cow)thanks all   karl