Author Topic: So what if you forgot to measure...  (Read 1450 times)

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Offline Timber0472

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So what if you forgot to measure...
« on: December 05, 2018, 04:49:55 PM »
Just like the title says...what if you forgot to measure the factory depth of the inner cam needle bearing before pulling your friends cam out of his brand new harley m8?? Hypothethically of course.  :emoGroan: Now what.? And yup..I've got a manual. :banghead:

Was thinking that I was working on a twinkie for a minute...ah..beer...

Also, anybody have a reference for ss quickee pushrod adjustment for woods 22x cams? I used benders in my bike and the adjustment was 4 turns...that the same for ss? Instructions say 4 but I have heard different stories.

Offline Goopdienes

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Re: So what if you forgot to measure...
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2018, 06:11:45 PM »
find out the thread pitch for your benders and if its the same then yes 4 turns. but if different there is a spec somewhere on s&s website for the different pitched push rods. i used fuel moto pushrods with 22x cam and it was 4 turns

Offline Mogollon

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Re: So what if you forgot to measure...
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2018, 07:46:54 PM »
The “major” key to hydraulic lifter adjustment is the “lifter design” because that determines the total travel of the lifter’s plunger. Stock TC & M8 lifters should have a total plunger travel of approximately 6-7 turns using a 32 tpi (0.03125” per turn) S&S Quickie pushrod. As a side note, S&S lifters with Travel Limiters (HL2T) have only about one-half the travel as stock lifters, so these lifters require a different adjustment procedure.

Anyway, for normal applications, S&S recommends about 4-turns of preload (at 32 tpi) on a cold engine for stock lifters, which is the equivalent to about 3-1/2 turns preload on a hot engine due to thermal expansion of the cylinders. This places the plunger at about the middle of a stock lifter’s travel.

Placing the plunger in the middle of the lifter’s travel distance is a good preload starting point. If the lifters tick after 20 or so miles of engine running, add another ½ turn or even 1-turn of preload to see if that quiets the lifters down.

I “believe” Bender pushrods use the oddball M8 x 1.00 threads, which is 25.4 tpi (0.0394” per turn). You need to verify this!

You can verify it by measuring the number of threads in one inch. Another method is to spin the pushrod adjusting nut 10 turns and measure the distance it travels. Ten turns on a 25.4 tpi pushrod should move the nut 0.394”.

A third method would be to install the Bender pushrod spin-free in the engine, then crank it down until the lifter’s plunger bottoms out and count the number of turns of total pushrod travel. Now set the lifter preload at one-half of the total turns of pushrod travel.

3.2-turns of preload with the Bender pushrod (assuming 25.4 tpi) “should” be equal to 4-turns of S&S Quickie preload at 32 tpi.

Hope this helps.

Offline Timber0472

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Re: So what if you forgot to measure...
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2018, 06:03:35 AM »
The “major” key to hydraulic lifter adjustment is the “lifter design” because that determines the total travel of the lifter’s plunger. Stock TC & M8 lifters should have a total plunger travel of approximately 6-7 turns using a 32 tpi (0.03125” per turn) S&S Quickie pushrod. As a side note, S&S lifters with Travel Limiters (HL2T) have only about one-half the travel as stock lifters, so these lifters require a different adjustment procedure.

Anyway, for normal applications, S&S recommends about 4-turns of preload (at 32 tpi) on a cold engine for stock lifters, which is the equivalent to about 3-1/2 turns preload on a hot engine due to thermal expansion of the cylinders. This places the plunger at about the middle of a stock lifter’s travel.

Placing the plunger in the middle of the lifter’s travel distance is a good preload starting point. If the lifters tick after 20 or so miles of engine running, add another ½ turn or even 1-turn of preload to see if that quiets the lifters down.

I “believe” Bender pushrods use the oddball M8 x 1.00 threads, which is 25.4 tpi (0.0394” per turn). You need to verify this!

You can verify it by measuring the number of threads in one inch. Another method is to spin the pushrod adjusting nut 10 turns and measure the distance it travels. Ten turns on a 25.4 tpi pushrod should move the nut 0.394”.

A third method would be to install the Bender pushrod spin-free in the engine, then crank it down until the lifter’s plunger bottoms out and count the number of turns of total pushrod travel. Now set the lifter preload at one-half of the total turns of pushrod travel.

3.2-turns of preload with the Bender pushrod (assuming 25.4 tpi) “should” be equal to 4-turns of S&S Quickie preload at 32 tpi.

Hope this helps.
Damn....Thanks for the lesson. Great info thanks for taking the time to type all that!

Offline Timber0472

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Re: So what if you forgot to measure...
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2018, 06:07:18 AM »
find out the thread pitch for your benders and if its the same then yes 4 turns. but if different there is a spec somewhere on s&s website for the different pitched push rods. i used fuel moto pushrods with 22x cam and it was 4 turns
Yea, the ones in my bike were benders and they came from FM. I used to have a set of the original FM. Those were nice. Very easy to use and looked like a work of art. The benders...not so much. Beefy but just not so easy to deal with.
These S&S quickee's are sweet. Cool design and even though they are a little thinner at the bottom they seem really solid. Plus they are S&S...that says a lot right there.

Offline GMR-PERFORMANCE

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Re: So what if you forgot to measure...
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2018, 06:26:20 AM »
Depth of bearing ???
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Offline Timber0472

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Re: So what if you forgot to measure...
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2018, 06:35:16 AM »
Depth of bearing ???
Ok, probably didnt explain it well. I watched a video (much later) after I had already pulled out the inner cam bearing that I was supposed to measure the depth of the bearing BEFORE I removed it, in order to set the new bearing in at that depth. I am supposing that this is for setting cam end play. I have done a bunch of twinkie cam swaps and had always just ran them in flush, but apparently that is a no-no on the m8s. I just read in the manual the correct procedure. So if I have this right, I should be able to just measure the thickness of the cam installation plate and add 3.373 to it. That should "in theory" be the correct depth of the new bearing.
- Anyone?

Offline rbabos

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Re: So what if you forgot to measure...
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2018, 09:38:46 AM »
Depth of bearing ???
Ok, probably didnt explain it well. I watched a video (much later) after I had already pulled out the inner cam bearing that I was supposed to measure the depth of the bearing BEFORE I removed it, in order to set the new bearing in at that depth. I am supposing that this is for setting cam end play. I have done a bunch of twinkie cam swaps and had always just ran them in flush, but apparently that is a no-no on the m8s. I just read in the manual the correct procedure. So if I have this right, I should be able to just measure the thickness of the cam installation plate and add 3.373 to it. That should "in theory" be the correct depth of the new bearing.
- Anyone?
I think what Steve meant is you got all the  info that's been covered 3 million times before in other threads and missed the real important question. Me, no idea, as I've never worked on one. :idunno:
Ron

Online Moparnut72

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Re: So what if you forgot to measure...
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2018, 09:51:39 AM »
If that measurement is for ease of installation to get the proper amount of endplay for the cam without having to fit by trial and error shouldn't there be a spec somewhere? When rebuilding some outboard motors we just put the same shims back in to ensure end play on the crank is correct. If something is changed then we get out the dial indicator and start at square one. Of course this is assuming that is what you are trying to accomplish. There may be another reason.
kk
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Offline Timber0472

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Re: So what if you forgot to measure...
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2018, 10:43:42 AM »
No biggie. I got it figured out. Thanks all.

Offline Goopdienes

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Re: So what if you forgot to measure...
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2018, 05:17:50 PM »
ive been told the s&s (Quickie) pushrods have a tendancy to flex in higher rpm's

Offline les

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Re: So what if you forgot to measure...
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2018, 07:52:43 AM »
For early twin cams and later twin cams, the face (letter side) of the inner cam bearings are right at the bottom of the bevel of the bearing bore when they are installed at the proper depth.  When using a good cam bearing installer, the tool will have a slight step that assures the bearing is installed this way, after the tool grounds out on the casing.

I'll be doing my first M8 cam chest this next weekend, and I'll be able to see if this pattern (right at the bottom of the bevel) is the same on the M8, using a JIMS 5806 tool.

Offline Timber0472

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Re: So what if you forgot to measure...
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2018, 11:12:31 AM »
For early twin cams and later twin cams, the face (letter side) of the inner cam bearings are right at the bottom of the bevel of the bearing bore when they are installed at the proper depth.  When using a good cam bearing installer, the tool will have a slight step that assures the bearing is installed this way, after the tool grounds out on the casing.

I'll be doing my first M8 cam chest this next weekend, and I'll be able to see if this pattern (right at the bottom of the bevel) is the same on the M8, using a JIMS 5806 tool.
:up:

Offline GMR-PERFORMANCE

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Re: So what if you forgot to measure...
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2018, 07:28:19 AM »
I find it funny that HD does not have a spec on correct depth just measure old one and hit it +/- .020   . Look at how it rides why would it matter if its flush to the case or in a bit further .

The bearing is not as wide as the cam bearing surface  and Lets say you get a messed up install from HD  ( not that it could EVER happen ) you take the spec and end up with it sticking out and the cam contacts bearing face .

 If the bearing is flush to the case it will work just fine .  Its not for cam end play that is controlled by shim on cam plate . The cam with out plate will drop in far enough to hit the other lifters run the lobe into case etc ..   New style of evo cam in some sense , Evo ran the shim on the back side m8 does it up front
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Offline PoorUB

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Re: So what if you forgot to measure...
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2018, 09:26:23 AM »
Last time I changed cams I measured the cam, bearing boss to bearing boss, added maybe .020" and drove the bearing to mach that length.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: So what if you forgot to measure...
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2018, 09:50:13 AM »
I find it funny that HD does not have a spec on correct depth just measure old one and hit it +/- .020   . Look at how it rides why would it matter if its flush to the case or in a bit further .

The bearing is not as wide as the cam bearing surface  and Lets say you get a messed up install from HD  ( not that it could EVER happen ) you take the spec and end up with it sticking out and the cam contacts bearing face .

 If the bearing is flush to the case it will work just fine .  Its not for cam end play that is controlled by shim on cam plate . The cam with out plate will drop in far enough to hit the other lifters run the lobe into case etc ..   New style of evo cam in some sense , Evo ran the shim on the back side m8 does it up front

Most of the caged needle bearings of this type are set back from flush to allow a small area for oil to accumulate and migrate into the bearing. I had a paper on this from a bearing manufacture saved to my old lap top that took a dump. I maybe able to find a copy on line somewhere. Because the Evo plate set against the case to control end play with the shim the needle was not only set back but the case had a notch at the 12:00 position to allow oil in.
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Offline GMR-PERFORMANCE

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Re: So what if you forgot to measure...
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2018, 11:42:23 AM »
well being I see some that are flush some are in a slight bit others over .045 SO based on that Sorry See zero reason for it . HD does not even have a spec  so the Special location from HD  :hyst:  I get the oil but there is plenty in both cam chest and crank case . The only thing you Could do is get the bearing out too far and the cam hits it .

However the cam if not shimmed right will hit the case   :down:
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