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REPRINT FROM OLD HTT: V~THUNDER 3010 UPDATE

Started by ClassicRider2002, November 26, 2008, 03:06:26 PM

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ClassicRider2002

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS A REPRINT TOPIC FROM "OLD" HTT

I have saved many great topical discussions as "links" over the years and would hate to see these lost, so I am reprinting this TOPIC here, which may "perhaps" help some.


TOPIC:  V-THUNDER 3010 UPDATE  08-21-08

   
From: Harleytoprock  (Original Message) Sent: 8/21/2008 6:52 PM    Message 1 of 9 in Discussion
I had a lifter roller go which took out the cam shaft and a lifter block, oil pump,cam cover bushings, plastic breather gear and so forth. With Classicrider's recommendation, I went with the 3010 cam and am quite happy. The cam is well manered in traffic and is very quiet. It pulls very strong from 2500 rpm to 5000rpm. I think its just right for street. To my surprise, the rear wheel broke loose when clowning around with my buddies taking off from a traffic light. It never did that before.
Classicrider, Thanks for the lead in the right direction.


MIGHTY MOUSE CAM
LOW END TORQUE JUNKIE 2

ClassicRider2002

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 8/24/2008 1:53 PM   Message 2 of 9 in Discussion
Harleytoprock~~~

I want to thank you for the kind words.....

Before I felt I could respond, I had to go back and review....why is it that I selected the V~Thunder 3010 Cam for my 1999 FXR2.....and at the end of the day.....it all points back to several people that offered their insights about this cam.....whom really deserve the credit.

The real knowledgeable person about this cam is John S. Rosamond it's his posts that were constantly answering other's questions about cams in general.  All I did was absorb what it was he was trying to communicate....so all I really am is a "megaphone" for his thoughts and ideas....the real success of this cam for you goes back to him primarily as well as a few others....

So I am glad it is working for you.....that's awesome.....

I believe this cam is a great cam and for about 2 years it was brought up in threads very consistantly dating back all the way to 2002 through about 2004, now you don't hear as much about it.....so I thought perhaps some "historical" perspective might benefit others down the way.....so I will provide how I reached the same conclusion as you have.....hopefully it becomes helpful to others....as the need for a great quality cam is always out there for our evos....

Regards,

"Classic"
MIGHTY MOUSE CAM
LOW END TORQUE JUNKIE 2

ClassicRider2002

November 26, 2008, 03:22:16 PM #2 Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 07:20:13 AM by ClassicRider2002
From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 8/24/2008 2:02 PM   Message 3 of 9 in Discussion

Here are several great historcial "THREADS" that helped me in my decision to place a V~Thunder 3010 Cam in my 1999 "Arresting Red FXR2.

Simply place your curser over the "http: address / link", CLICK, VIEW, and READ at your pleasure:


1)   TOPIC:  V-THUNDER 3010 CAM  08-02-02  
This was the very first post that ever mentioned the V~Thunder Cam here @ HTT

2)   TOPIC:  V-THUNDER EVL-3010 or EVL-3020?  YOUR OPINION PLEASE!  11-27-02

3)   TOPIC:  Choosing The Right Cam For A '89 FXR  06-05-05

4)  TOPIC:  Cam Basics For Harley Davidson Motorcycles  02-13-06  

5)  TOPIC:  CAM GEAR ADVICE  09-02-02  

6)  TOPIC:  HIPPO, Tech Dudes â€" Assembly Of Stock Cam Gear To V-Thunder Camshaft  11-25-02

7)  TOPIC:  V~Thunder Or Ev27 CAM? & Installation Questions  07-03-05  

8 ) TOPIC:  John S.  09-08-03  
and finally.....as many have found about John S.

........And finally some of the best reflections made in writing about this cam from John S. and a couple of others to follow.

Regards,

"Classic"
 
MIGHTY MOUSE CAM
LOW END TORQUE JUNKIE 2

ClassicRider2002

November 26, 2008, 03:33:46 PM #3 Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 03:39:39 PM by ClassicRider2002
From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 8/24/2008 2:05 PM   Message 4 of 9 in Discussion

Here are some of the most informatiive reflections by John S.:

My experience with the 3010 and the 3020 have led me to believe that they are very similar.  So, the '20 does not make more horsepower than the '10?  (not so much as you'd notice).  The 3010 comes on a full 500 rpm lower than the 3020  (3010 right at 2000 rpm, 3020 at 2500).  Hence the 3020 also lasts a little longer in the rpm range.  You do not need head work for either one (regardless of what the description states).  In my opinion, because it lasts a little longer in the rpm range, the 3020 responds better to a bike that has been modified with full exhaust (rather than slip ons) and a better induction system.  I also feel that the 3020 is a better choice if you ride "light" or solo more often than not.  If you were pulling trailer along, or a passenger, the bike would benefit (in town traffic) from the 3010 instead.  The V-Thunder cams have a very good cam lobe profile that somehow balances lift and duration so that the vales are opened more smoothly.  Due to this lobe profile, V-Thunder cams are very quiet, while still producing good power.  Putting the cam on with the OEM gear will also affect it’s quietness in a positive way.  Using the OEM gear means not having to worry about gear lash and the new cam will be as gear-quiet as the old one.  I would highly suggest that you throw in a few pennies and have the old gear pressed onto the new cam. 

Whenever putting an aftermarket cam in always replace the I.N.A. Bearing in favor of the Torrington B138 bearing as the I.N.A. bearing has fewer needle bearings in it, and has a plastic "cage" inside to keep the needle bearings in line.  If you have a stock OEM cam, then it's possible that you may never have a problem.  If you install a high performance cam and do not replace the it with the stronger <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Torrington</st1:place></st1:City>, you will have a cam bearing failure.  This is not a choice (or a chance) that I would advise to anyone to take when installing a performance cam in an Evolution.  The Torrington B 138 simply has more needles in it and will take the increased loads that a performance cam puts on that bearing.  Also when ever you plan a cam change, you should always plan on buying a set of good quality adjustable pushrods.


Comments [CONTINUED] Specifically From John S. On the V~Thunder Cams:

I installed a V-thunder 3010 in my Father's '97 Electra Glide Standard.  I prefer the 3020 myself, but he frequently tows a small camper trailer (a "time out").  This cam is very good on the road.  Comes on fairly early and then goes to about 4500 rpm.  Dad likes it and says that even with the trailer he has no trouble.


I picked V-Thunder because the 3000, 3010, and 3020 have very "easy" valve ramps.  Therefore, you don't need to replace the OEM valve springs and the cam is VERY quiet.  Not the clicky-clacky of many other aftermarket cams.


I have run Crane cams in the past, but I have currently been won over by the ramp design on the V-Thunder cams.  I have installed the EVL-3010, Evl-3020, and Evl-3040.  I, personally, run a V-Thunder EVL-3020 in my '88 FLHS, and it's a great cam.  My 'HS isn't no rocket ship, but I can cruise, at higher than the legal limit, all day if I wanted......no trouble hauling camping gear or a passenger.  Very quiet, and have had good luck with the bearing and lobe surface (that is good heat treating).


I think that (in my opinion) I would have you look at the V-thunder cams first.  The EVL-3010 and the EVL-3020 are very close in terms of performance, it's just that the 3010 comes on a little quicker (that is comes on at a lower RPM)..   I think the 3010, though is an excellent cam and would suggest it without hesitating.


If you go by the numbers, the EVL-3010 is approximately equal to the EV-27.  The EVL-3010 has low-end power.  I run a 3020 and the only difference seems to be that my engine pulls for about 500 rpm higher than his (though his cam comes on at about 1500rpm - mine 2000 rpm.).  Frankly I would have no trouble suggesting either,  .  I noticed that through CCI you can order the cam without the gear and save about $70.


This was an interesting question once posed to John S.:

With the 3020 is that will I loose some low end torque with out raising the compression because of the cam's increase in valve overlap and duration? Are you running this cam? Take care, HTR

Yes you will lose a little low end.  When starting from a dead stop, this cam doesn't really start to kick in until about 2200 rpm or so.  A 3010 will start at a little lower rpm, however, you gain quite a bit in the mid-range portion.  Yes, I have this cam in my bike and I like it a lot.  Around town you do not really notice the loss of lower end power too much unless you are pulling a trailer (I don't do that) or riding two up (I occasionally do that).  But once you are moving, it's not a big deal.  I recently rode a Sportster that had a set of S.E. high performance cams.  Yuk, what a crapper.  It was so lacking low end, that it didn't even start to "Go" until after 60 mph.  The 3020 is not like that at all.  My father runs a 3010 and to tell you the truth they are very similar in road feel.  While going down the road on my 3020 (like highway) all you have to do is twist the throttle and it starts to accelerate immediately.

I know that the Evolution responds well to compression hikes, but in terms of reliability I've always been a bit conservative.  The last time I had the heads off, I decided to try the "thinner" James head gasket.  I got rather daring and put on the James 0.045 head gasket rather than the OEM 0.062 and I was impressed.  I think what I'm feeling is a torque increase at an earlier RPM and the torque curve is very flat once it gets going ( mostly feeling the cam after that).   It's a cheap way to increase the compression just a tad.  That helped to compensate for the lack of start-rolling-power.  The bike pulls quite well.  I imagine that with a decent 9.0:1 compression head or piston set up, you'd pick up maybe a couple of horsepower and the lapse in low end would feel even less noticeable than it does now It's cheap and easy.

I'm not exactly sure what the impetus was for Harley to go with 8.5:1 compression on the Evolution when they used 9.0:1 on the XL.  I'm going to guess that it was a combination of lower heat, able to run lower quality fuel, and possibly emissions.  Even though the XL 1200 is just shy of big twin size, it actually comes in just outside some of the dreaded EPA rules.  Sorry, I got lost there.   I think that 9.0 or 9.5:1 should be no problem.  And if it ever did become a problem, you could easily install an oil cooler and continue to have many smiles per mile.  In fact, I'm a little jealous, I think that a good breathing cylinder head and a little bump in compression (like the 9.5:1) will allow the bike to run very well.  You'll  probably may never be able to run the lowest grade fuel again (like 86 or 97 octane), but you shouldn't have to add a booster either.  The added compression will allow the bike to gain horsepower and the engine should actually be working a little less while going down the highway.  Just make sure that the little beast is warmed up before you get on it hard.  It is possible that if you have any weak gaskets, or any poor sealing surfaces, the extra compression may cause some minor leaking.  But if you're sealed up now, you should continue to be so.

For certain applications the EVL-3010 or the EV27 may be a better choice.  I love my 3020, but it's really a more highway (mid range) cam and might not give you the around town performance that someone might like.  The 3010 is no slug though, it goes down the road just fine.  You would do better 2-up I think with the 3010.

Even though the EV27 may have sharper ramps, the lift is not very high, so you have to trade off with more overlap.  The V-Thunder cam has a nice little hike in lift and a mild ramp design that I like.  Given both cams side-by-side (and with my personal experience) I'd take the V-Thunder 3010 first.

The question is what do you want the cam to do for you?  Drag race, Go to Sturgis with your spouse, tour by yourself, or what.  If you were asking me about a mild cam that you could put in and get "better than I have now" performance (as opposed to wild drag race perf.).  The Andrews EV-27 is a good choice, the V-Thunder EVL 3010 or 3020, the Crane 310-2B.....these are all decent grinds, will give you performance but keep the bike reliable.


Comments Specifically From John S. On the V~Thunder Cams:

I would stick with a cam that is low or possible mid range.  Even on the highway, if you do mostly shorter trips and go to work, you don't want to have a cam that comes on at 3,000 rpm.  For moving through traffic, I'd say that the EV-27 or the EVL-3010 (for examples).  These cams come on a bit below 2,000 rpm and they'll let you wind up the engine to about 4,000 before they start to go flat.  Ask people that you know to see what they run and how satisfied they are.  On lifters, yes, I would highly suggest that you replace them.  Once you put a cam in, you will be asking more out of your lifter than before.  With a 1998 you can no longer rebuild the lifter wheel only.  You have to replace them.  If you go with a bolt-in cam that was designed for hydraulic lifters, my personal feeling is that the OEM harley lifter is fine, and they don't cost that much.  I know that Samuel and one other tech were serious about putting Jim's big axle lifters.  I have only had one time when a Harley lifter failed on me (and that was upon installation).  Not a bad record.


Now A Few Reflections By A Couple Of Others:

Biker11161 stated once:

The easiest thing to understand about camshafts is duration. Duration numbers between 220-230 make the cam "turn on" right off idle, great for two up touring with a trailer. 230-240 #s the cam is still in the lower half portion of the rpm range, good for heavier vehicles/loads for a more streetable riding experience. 240-250 #s are moving the cam's sweet spot to the mid range, good for lighter vehicles and more performance oriented folks. 250-260 #s the cam is definitely in the upper mid range. 260 and above numbers are designed for maximum effort/racing applications. If you read anyones literature (Crane,Andrews,etc) you see as the duration increases the state of tune, modifications, and displacement also increases accordingly. All camshafts realistically have a 2500-3000 rpm range where they work best. A cam that works down low "falls off" way up on top. They aren't made to do all things, all the time. People need to determine where they want the "sweet spot" to be. Idle to 80mph, 50-100, 80-WOT. What works for one person's bike and riding style could be all wrong for another's. I would suggest using a Crane EV-23, and while replacing the breather gear with a steel one (I use S&S or <st1:place w:st="on">Midwest</st1:place>'s) pulling the screen mesh out of it for better transfer of air within the motor.

TarheelFXR:

Buy the 3010.  It has less overlap at 30 degrees than the EV27 at 36 degrees so it has better torque.  The 3010 has 234 intake and 234 exhaust degrees, EV27 has same intake but has 240 degrees duration exhaust--the idea is cooling/scavanging but I think matched durations like V-thunder work great.


Works for me--VT3020 in my FXR is killer and as mentioned very quiet (better ramps).  The 3010 and 3020 bracket the EV27--think custom tuned.  Seriously, buy the 3010 w/out the gear, have your cam gear carefully pressed on, install and go like hell. T


Relections Of Jamesp:

I have a V~Thunder 3010 in my FXSTS w/loaded bags and with my 203 lbs, it pulls hard from off idle all the way to about 85+ mph.  It is absolutely no louder than the stock cam was. V~Thunder pays a lot of attention to the ramping on these bolt in grinds. To insure low noise levels and the 3020 is not a whole lot different thant he 3010 in my opinion.  I am just amazed at the difference it made in the rideablity and noise level of my scooter compared to the EV~27.


Comments Reflective From "ClassicRider2002" [Me]
The central theme throughout was is the benefit of the V~Thunder cam....what I decided from all of the above information is that the V~Thunder cam I wanted to explore was specifically the V~Thunder 3010, even though there was so much support for the V~Thunder 3020. 

I had to answer the question John S. asked above for my own riding style...what is it I was looking for from such a "mild" cam upgrade....essentially I wanted more "bottom" end pick up.....given the weight of an FXR, and specifically of my FXR2 which is approximately 560 lbs I sensed from the above that the cam would give me some umphf off from initial rolling ie: 0-50 or so....and I realized the cam would fall off quicker than the 3020. 

The results were confirmed by what I felt would happen.....as my buddy who also owns an FXR3 did a side by side comparision with the both bikes sent up exactly the same [also given that our body weights are similar] discovered that my FXR2 with the 3010 cam was quicker off of the line than his FXR3 with the 3020 cam.  This is what I was after, the "quickest" "mild" cam.  He has sense removed the 3020 cam from his FXR3 as he felt it just cam on a bit too late for what he desired....and went to an EV~27, we haven't done a side by side comparison since....so I am not sure how the two bikes would respond given the two different cams, however I have always had interest in determing such....lol but let's just say we haven't.....lol

The purpose of the above wasn't to prove one cam is better than another....the purpose was to speak about three things....

1) There are some wonderful people on this site to learn from....and John S. has always been there to answer any techincal question to the best of his ability....and

2) That the V~Thunder cam has been in a few peoples bikes now for awhile and at least for myself the V~Thunder 3010 for the weight of my bike is performing wonderful and

3) That I believe any FXR owner would benefit from this "mild" cam as well if you are after a "bolt in" solution without changing heads and so forth....it's quite a bit of "bang" for the "buck" when you consider that at least back in July of 2005 the cost of the V~Thunder cam was merely $87.00 without the "gear" which I felt represented a pretty good value and

4) That what I hoped to do was save other's some research time by having most of the best comments about this cam located in one simple thread....

5) and finally if all you are after is something that will give you a bit more fun without "stressing" your bike too much here is a possible solution....and +  if you read carefully what John states through out you will find that he mentions that the changing of the head gasket just an incremental way will do a bit more for compression and for the umph of the bike.

Regards,

"Classic"

MIGHTY MOUSE CAM
LOW END TORQUE JUNKIE 2

ClassicRider2002

Anything added beyond this point is new information.

Regards,

"Classic"
MIGHTY MOUSE CAM
LOW END TORQUE JUNKIE 2