REPRINT FROM OLD HTT: CAM INSTALL HELP FOR 1999 FXR2 PLEASE

[ClassicRider2002]

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS A REPRINT TOPIC FROM "OLD" HTT

I have saved many great topical discussions as "links" over the years and would hate to see these lost, so I am reprinting this TOPIC here, which may "perhaps" help some.

TOPIC:  CAM INSTALL HELP FOR A 1999 FXR2 PLEASE  06-25-05


From: ClassicRider2002  (Original Message) Sent: 6/25/2005 3:28 AM    Message 1 of 10 in Discussion
Hello All....

Well now that I have "stopped" all of the leaks which included replacing all the gaskets and seals associated with my Rocker Boxes....(in particular my rear rocker box was actually weeping).  Thus via either o~rings, gaskets, or oil seals as I had to deal with on the jackshaft oil seal as well as the main shaft oil seal in the inner primary, along with the inner primary O~Ring, I have accomplished having no existing oil leaks or "weeping".....which feels great....Thank you to all who assisted with that progress!!!!!.....

Now I would like to turn my attention  to the board once again and solicit assistance with some input on doing a cam for this 1999 FXR2 (evo engine).  The bike has 6,000 miles on it.

SO.....

What I have done to the bike mechanically thus far is to have put on a Vance & Hines 2 into 1 Pro Pipe.   I also have installed the following two part numbers:   HD# 29008-90A  which is the Evolution 1340 High Flow Air Cleaner which included the K&N Air Filter.  As well as the part number of HD# 29310-93  which is the Cylinder Head Breather Manifold Kit.  I also installed HD# 27094-88 which is a Sportster Jet needle/carb needle and HD# 27170-89 which is a  45 slow Idle Jet.   

My intended use of the bike will be 90% as a solo rider....which for me means weighing 160lbs carrying upwards of 60 lbs of stuff with leather side bags and a T bag on the bike when fully loaded. On the those occassions when carrying a passenger the added weight would be aprx 115 lbs.

90% of my riding tends to be alot of mountain riding at elevations between 4900 feet to 12,000 feet......

What I am after is a bit more performance WITHOUT having to go into the heads, cylinders, & springs, and I am not interested in modifying my pistons at this time.  Thus I suppose you call what I am looking for as pretty much a "bolt in cam"  As I have mentioned I put an Andrews 26G in my RKC and feel it's doing a great job....thus I have decided I would like to go with the following cam:

Andrews Cams
                                                  Duration          Valve     Lift@
Part #     Grind    Timing(*)   0.053     0.020   Lift         TDC   Springs  Application
291127   EV27    20/36          236        270    0.495     0.182     STOCK    A great bolt in cam for stock EV80 engines using state
                               46/14          240        274    0.495     0.166                      of the art design. Very strong, broad torque band
                 OK with fuel injectors or carburetors!                                            which will pull hard from 2000 to 5500 RPM.

It should be noted after this "THREAD" was posted I later decided to put in the Crane V~Thunder 3010 Cam and not the EV27 cam.

Thus given that I have done a Twin Cam "cam" installation.....I am right back here again for any TIPS or CAUTIONS or "SECRETS" which would make this particular install for an evo (FXR2) an equally wondeful success.

Here are the tools I used to install the cams in my Twin Cam 2002 RKC....so will I need other "special tools"? Or will these tools work?  Do I need them all? Or will NONE of them work?

Slinger Airflow Works, Inc.
Cam Bearing Installer and Remover Tool   INNER BEARINGS
For 99-04 Twin Cam; repl. OEM HD #42325
DS-198809  $178.00
This one only works on a TWIN CAM application, there is one made specifically for the EVO Application.

Slinger Airflow Works, Inc.
Camshaft Needle Bearing Remover & Installer
Slinger Airflow Works, Inc. Makes this Tool For Kent Moore Who Distributes it to HD as part number #HD-42928 & To Biker's Choice as part number # 67-0210 retail price of $231.00
The finest cam bearing removal and installation tool available
The Inner cam bearing can now be removed and installed effortlessly with the engine in the chassis, without any chance of lost needles
70-99 Big Twin models


Cam Shaft Remover    Jimms Tool
DS-196199

EVO Tappet Block Alignment Pins    (requires 2 of these)
The pins are used to re-align your oil pump after installing your cam. The oil pump has four bolts that connect it to the cam plate. You put a pin in two opposite corners and the bolts in the other two corners. After torquing the bolts and pins (the pins force the pump to 'center' itself on the cam plate) you remove the two pins and replace them with the original remaining two bolts and torque the last two bolts like the first.
DS-199099

So are any of the tools above ALSO helpful with an EVO cam install?  Do I need other special tools?

Would you ALSO BE changing the lifters (again 6,000 miles on bike) and if you would change them what would you change them to and why?

What adjustable push rods would you use?, what brand would you use? and why?  On my RKC I used V~Thunder ones.....from what I understand you have to be a bit careful here to MAKE sure the adjustable push rods are NOT too much different in diameter than the stock ones....anyone have any input on this?

I DO indeed own a FXR2 service manual....and I still have all of the data from the install of my cams on the RKC as well....I am once again looking for Looking for specific changes for the install on an evo compared to a twin cam?

I understand there is also another part inside the guts of the cam.....some sort of "plastic" part something to do with the oil that flows through it....(as you can see I have just barely enough information to be dangerous)....that S&S apparently makes a better one for...so perhaps this might be a good thing to change as well.....it's apparently like $70.00 bucks or so....does anyone know what I am referring to.....I could use the help on this as well.....as I am not really sure what it is called or what the OEM part number is that indeed is being recommended to be replaced.

I am assuming you find TDC (Top Dead Center)  for this project as well....correct?

If anyone has any great directions or input on what to do I could use this help as well....

I understand I am going to be in this project for less money because I obviously don't have two cams and also the gears are already in the evo....so no dealing with the chain tensioners which obviously will reduce the price.....

What besides the specific cam that I want will I also NEED to acquire.....as for parts....I understand replacing all of the gaskets as well as O~Rings for the push rods only makes sense....I always APPRECIATE the assistance and input I receive from everyone here....it has been INVALUABLE!!!!!


Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: 94fxstc2 Sent: 6/25/2005 4:47 AM   Message 2 of 10 in Discussion
good cam choice check out this site www.nightrider.com/biketech/ they have a cam install that will walk yiu through it 


From: The Ironman Sent: 6/25/2005 6:19 AM   Message 3 of 10 in Discussion
Classic,
  Wow dude, you've certainly given us all the info that we need.  As for the EV-27 cam,  never mind that fact that I installed one on my '98 RK. While some may think that it's a bit noisy, it's a good choice.   Since I've never worked on a TC model, I can't compare.  But you will need the cam bearing installer/remover, and alingnment pins.   I don't know what you mean about a cam shaft remover tool.  Once you get the nose cone off, the cam will probably come with it.   As to the lifters, check them over, but with only 6k miles on them, I would think that they would still have plenty of life left in them.   As to pushrods.  Any adjustable, quality, brand name ones will work fine.  If you are looking for performance, (and we're splitting hairs here,) a lighter rod, (in weight) will give you more power, (less recipacatin weight) but a stiffer rod won't "flex" as much during high RPM operation.  Go with what brand you like and know.  The plastic part that you are speaking of is the plastic breather valve  gear.  Some change the plastic gear to a metal one.  Reasoning here is some think that the plastic one is prone to breaking up.  Others like the plastic because if it does break up it will do minor, (if any) damage to other parts.  I've got over 54K miles on my RK, and have always used plastic.  Again, go with what you feel comfortable with.   Another part that you may want to take a real close look at is the breather grear thrust washer.  It is also of some type of plastic and is prone to failure. (hair line cracks)  HD calls for a pretty large spec as to the side clearance of the breather valve.  This particular thrust washer is available in different thicknesses.  Rather than shooting for the .50 thou or so that TMC, (the motor company) calls for, I like to bring this spec down to about .008 to .012".

My apologize to all for the wordy response, but I hope that I've been of a little help.  This is a great site, and I'm sure that others will chime in with other tid-bits of information. Good luck,    Sam   
     

From: mattabull Sent: 6/26/2005 3:46 AM   Message 4 of 10 in Discussion
more than likely, you will also have to shim the cam. i don't know the specs off the top of my head. if you don't know what a shim is, it is a 'spacer', or washer on the inner side of the cam that stops it from moving left and right too much.

     
From: mahem93 Sent: 6/26/2005 7:23 AM   Message 5 of 10 in Discussion
ClassicRider2002, the easiest way to shim your cam is as follows:
Pull the stock out with factory shim. Then measure from the cam gear to the shim with veriers.  Using the same shim, measure with the new cam. Then measure the shim itself, the difference between the 2 cam and shim measurements is the amount of increase or decrease of the new shim.   Example:
Stock cam shim = .055
stock cam and shim = 3.045
new cam and stock shim = 3.025
new cam shim = .075
This doesn't mean that its absolutely correct just that it measures to within factory spec's.
Evo cams can have up to .050 endplay.  I try to space around .010

Good Luck.
Caveman


From: Traveler_733 Sent: 6/26/2005 7:54 AM   Message 6 of 10 in Discussion
Press the old gear off the stock cam, use it on the new one. V-Thunder sells them with out the gear.  Check out their 3010 or 3020 cam. Use assembly lube one the cam lobes, & lifters. Make sure the lifter you adjust, is on the bottom of it's stroke. Wait 15 minutes (spin the push rod) 'till you turn the engine to the next cyl. Use the after market Torrington inner cam bearing. (lettering out) Measure cam shaft end play, through the lifter block holes, before installing the lifter blocks. And yes, use 2 alighnment tools. Make sure you put the correct gasket, on each block, for the oil holes.Mark your ignition sensor plate, then just put it back the same.  Have fun!

Utlimately this is what I did, I used the V~Thunder 3010 Cam without the gear and placed the new cam onto my OEM gear it was and is a great solution allowing everything to continue "meshing" just as everything was previously. 
     

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/26/2005 9:31 PM   Recommend   Message 7 of 10 in Discussion
EVOHP thank you for the recommendation of Nightrider.com I appreciate that input...

Ironman....you liked the input....lol....I know I know too much information....lol....but THANK YOU for your assistance as well...Sam your WORDINESS WAS/IS WONDERFUL....speaking from the KING of wordiness!!!!!  Perhaps I will ask you more questions as I think of them.....Also thank you for clearing up the one "piece" I asked about....with that being the breather valve gear..and for mentioning the other "plastic" piece!!!!

Mahem99/Caveman thank you for adding to the additional conceptualization of explaining how to figure the shim spacer!!!!!

Traveler 03 thanks for mentioning the Torrington Inner cam bearing...and for the other input you mentioned as well...

So now it's back to the questioning table....it seems I have been provided some options here on the specific cam to use....the Andrews EV27, V-Thunder 3010 or 3020?

I am hoping for more input....so far I have had some excellent  "TIPS" thank you....regarding the shims, the breather valve, the plastic shim, etc....

I am still not sure whether the tools I mentioned above are the ones I need to do the job with or not?  Does anyone have any SPECIFIC input on this.....You all know how it is so frustrating to start a project and then realize you don't have the right tool to do the job....so I am trying to avoid that.....so if anyone could speak to this issue that would be great!!!!!!

Regards,

"CLASSIC"
     

From: 94fxstc2 Sent: 6/27/2005 6:28 AM   Message 8 of 10 in Discussion
you will need to change inner bearing for the cam you can rent from autozone blind hole puller set #27128 for free just have to leave a security deposit you can use old cam to install new bearing if you don't have install tool just be careful i would use crane timesaver pushrods or andrews e-z install pushrods
     

From: ace29530 Sent: 6/28/2005 11:12 AM   Message 9 of 10 in Discussion
CLASSIC , SAVE YOURSELF SOME TIME BY NOT PULLING THE TAPPET BLOCKS. BEFORE YOU PULL THE CAM, CUT OUT YOUR PUSHRODS WITH BOLT CUTTERS. TAKE TWO MEDIUM PAPERCLIPS TWO GOOD SIZE RUBBERBANDS , FORM THE CLIPS INTO A "U"
SHAPE ATTACH ONE BAND TO EACH CLIP AT THE "U" END, PUT THE ENDS OF THE CLIPS INTO THE OIL HOLESOF THE LIFTERS , THEN PULL LIGHT SIDE PRESSURE ON THE CLIPS ATTACH BANDS TO FRAME OR ANYPLACEYOU CAN TO KEEP THE PRESSURE ON THE LIFTERS THIS WILL KEEP THEM IN PLACE TILL YOU DO YOUR CAME CHANGE I SUGGEST SCEAMING EAGLE ADJUSTABLE PUSHRODS CHROMEMOLLY STEEL AND ONLY 85.00 SKINS

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/29/2005 11:49 PM   Message 10 of 10 in Discussion
Hello again.....

Ok I have picked through everyone's notes and tips....again thanks for the input thus far......I have read my 1999 Service Manual, I have read and reread through the Niterider's website instructions for an 80" evo cam, I have used my 1999 Parts Book as well.....and have reread my notes from the install of RKC cam installation....so I have a pretty good feel for the instructions...

I came in here wondering what the "plastic thingie" is and now understand it is called a breather gear valve and that it is indeed plastic and looks like a gear....also that there is a "plastic thrust washer as well.....

I have the numbers for 3 cams......but heck I don't know what really any of it means....so can anyone help me....here are the cams I am looking at: (not in specific order)

1)  Andrews EV27
2)  Evolution "Big Twin" Evolution Fireball Series
     Camshafts FireBall® 310-2
3)  EVL-3010  V-Thunder

(copied from niterider's website):
As a general rule, cams with 220-235 degrees of duration tend to produce good low end torque. Cams with 235-250 degrees of duration tend to work best in the mid-ranges and cams over 260 degrees work best for top end power. Camshaft overlap duration less than 30 degrees tends to produce good low end power. Lobe Separation Angles (LSA) of 100-103 degrees tend to produce power at the low end.

Cams with valve lifts .500 inches and under, with a duration under 250 degrees are generally considered bolt-in. Cams over .500 inches lift and 250 degrees duration require increased compression and head work to work best.  notice that the SE-4 cam's lift numbers are at .505.  Although the HD 1999 Genuine Motor Parts Catalog/Book does state that "1340 Cams over .510" lift may require case and/or tappet guide machining for cam lobes clearance".....

You know how it is if I could get all of the numbers to line up I would.....I have all the numbers for these four cams....but HECK I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY MEAN....lol

I would like roll on power from 1,500 through the range....but we all know the meat of the deal is about 2,000 RPM through about 4,400 - 4,800 RPM......I have already explained in the first writing what my objectives were...

I didn't think I would be questioning which cam to put in...but now I am....

[ClassicRider2002]

Anything added beyond this point is new information.

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

This topical discussion will address how to make sure the "timing' stays accurate when seperating the OEM gear from the OEM Cam and making sure you keep the correct timing marks and then placing the OEM gear onto the new V~Thunder 3010 Cam. 

TOPIC:  CAM GEAR ADVICE  09-02-02  <~~~~CLICK,VIEW, & READ

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

I ended up purchasing an EVO Inner Camshaft Needle Bearing Remover & Installer HD# 42928 which I did get a great value @ $100.00 this was  the only "speciality" tool I ended up purchasing besides the EVO Tappet Block Alignment Pins    (requires 2 of these).

I did end up installing new lifters as well (I just wanted everything new at this point in regards to the lifters and the cam thus I installed the:
Big Axle Powerglideâ,,¢ Hydraulic Tappet For ’84-’99 BT, ’86-’90 XL, ’87-’90 Buell®, Single¬
Standard O.D. is .8425”. Individual tappet weighs 149 grams. This tappet replaces and surpasses H.D.® No. 18523-86 and S&S® No. 33-5341. Use with 2272-IS Instruction sheet. Total Hydraulic Lift: 0.200”
THE POWERGLIDEâ,,¢ ADVANTAGE
Longest valve train engine life.  Produced from billet bearing steel. The same high quality steel our shafts and crank pins are made from. The best made JIMS® big axle roller. The ultimate in hydraulic control system, performs better under both the lower and the higher R.P.M. limits, and high spring pressures. A true centerline for roller life and exact cam timing.  State of the art pushrod seat, machined with the same segmented parabolic cup as the JIMS® roller rockers. Helps eliminate pushrod whip. Engineered on a state of the art cad system, and machined in some of the world’s most accurate precision computer controlled machinery. Hand fit hydraulic unit to a running fit of .0002”, with ultra precision air gauging system.  All hydraulic units are tested 100% for function under a simulated pressure test fixture.  The best warranty policy in the industry.
Powerglideâ,,¢ tappets are capable of the highest rpm a Harley® can safely turn (about 8025 r.p.m.) at a valve lift of .700”, with the right valve springs, valves, cam, oil, etc. We recommend using with JIMS® tappet blocks No.1094. It is not necessary to use a limiting travel washer in "PowerglideTM" tappets. For ALL OUT performance use a hydrosolid tappet.
JIMS BIG AXLE POWER GLIDE HYDRAULIC TAPPETS JIMS PART # 2456-1 (BRAND NEW). FOR 84-99 EVOLUTION : REPL. OEM #18523-86, POWERGLIDE TAPPETS HAVE A MICRO-FINISH BORE THAT ALLOWS A RUNNING FIT OF .0002". THIS TAPPET REPLACES AND SURPASSES HD PART # 18523-86 AND S & S PART # 33-5341.
•   Powerglideâ,,¢ tappets have a micro-finish bore that allows a running fit of .0002”
•   Big Axleâ,,¢ rollers are designed around three working parts
•   The outer wheel/roller has a 27% greater wall size â€" less harmonic distortion for better     tracking of cam lobe
•   Pin bearings are decreased in size by 12%, which increases rpm for more precise tracking
•   Axle size is increased 36% and doubles as the inner race, so the pin bearing and complete roller assembly now
                     rotates around the axle instead of an inner race, eliminating all possible movement in and around the axle
•   Made in the U.S.A.
For 84-99 80” Evolution; Repl. OEM #18523-86
Part Number   Description   Suggested Retail
DS-194107    SIZE: Std. (.8425”) - Powerglide Hydraulic     $73.95
DS194107  Big Axle Power Glide Hydraulic Tappets JIMS Part# 2456-1  $235.00 

Jims Breather Valve Gear W/ Elongated Oil Hole # 2337ST    07-14-2005   $71.00 of course this one was the "steel" version.

My Parts Lis For My Cam Change in June of 2005 was:
  86.65       1 Cam (without gear) V-Thunder EVL-3010
103.95       V-Thunderâ,,¢ “Fast Times” Adjustable Push Rods PART #7002R-KIT
    7.00       Torrington B 138 Cam Shaft Needle Bearing
  227.0       4 tappets JIMS TOOLS Powerguide Big Axle Hydraulic Lifters/Tappets Dennis Kirk page 220 2004                   
                          catalog H14-905  $68.99 ea X 4 $275.96 DS-194107 $ 63.95ea X4 $255.80 $227.00 Purchased             
                          From jenni at benjys
  71.00       Steel Breather Valve Gear JIMS TOOLS Elongated Oil hole
                             JIMS TOOL Part#: .2337ST - Use on Late 1977-99 Big Twin single cam
    2.08     Steel Breather Gear Endplay Shim
    9.85        HD Exhaust Gaskets
  17.58       James Gasket kit for tappets, for outer cam case cover, all o~rings, cam case oil seal
    2.33       Camshaft Shims .50
100.00       Camshaft Needle Bearing Remover & Installer HD# 42928 which I did get a great value  on
----------
628.00         Sub Total

This Photo below shows the EVO Inner Camshaft Needle Bearing Remover & Installer HD# 42928 which I did get a great value @ $100.00, I always try to help my other buddies out by having that odd tool.  A;hough you can rent a inner case bearing remover/installer tool to remove that inner cam case bearing from autozone.  Autozone calls it a a blind hole puller set #27128.  Autozone does allow folks to use this tool for free you just have to leave a security deposit.  Another option of course is that you can use the old cam to install the new bearing if you don't have either one of these options for an install tool, just be careful, although pulling it out will leave you scratching your head, and quite miserable if you use something that is inappropriate that some how allows all of those little bearings to to fall into your engine case....actually you will feel MORE than miserable.  I simply chose to purchase a tool...that's why you will see it listed on my parts list.
 
[NOTE: Please remember that putting your curser next to the paper clip icon below the photo will allow you to enlarge the photo plus save it to your computer if you desire OR if you merely wish to see it enlarged simply put your curser on the photo and "LEFT" click and it will enlarge]


[attachment removed after 60 days by system]