REPRINT FROM OLD HTT: 1999 FXR2 ROCKER BOXES REPAIR HELP

[ClassicRider2002]

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS A REPRINT TOPIC FROM "OLD" HTT

I have saved many great topical discussions as "links" over the years and would hate to see these lost, so I am reprinting this TOPIC here, which may "perhaps" help some.

TOPIC:  1999 FXR2 ROCKER BOXES REPAIR HELP  05-28-05
   

From: ClassicRider2002  (Original Message) Sent: 5/28/2005 1:33 AM   Message 1 of 6 in Discussion
Ok....the bike is a 1999 FXR2 just purchased by me only 5,490 miles on it......when I got it home from picking it up, I had ridden it nearly 300 miles....I doscovered I had the "proverbial" very slow dripping occuring on my driveway.....arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggghhhhh  what a bummer.....but oh well....so as I was bout to begin cleaning the bike....I noticed alot of "road grime" you know where it is a bit thick...and so forth and so on....aand also discovered some fresh oil so before starting to clean it I called a buddy to come over and see if I had major problems.....before I cleaned it all up......we both determined that really the best thing to do was clean the bike up first...as there was just too much old grime there to determine what was happening.....and then take it out for about a 15 mile ride...long enough to get everything warmed up but not so far as to recreate all the cleaning that had already been accomplished....After I took it out for the that 15 mile ride I had my son-in-law look at it next....and to tell you the truth...we couldn't really tell where oil was definitely coming from....except for a couple of spots....so I went to my local indy shop purchased an outer primary cover gasket, inspection cover gasket the square one where the shifter shaft protrudes from, and the derby cover "circular" gasket ....also acquired the two o-rings that the shifter shaft sleeve has upon it....While there they told me they would be doing the same thing I was doing.....starting on the outside working to the inside with the gaskets and seals....I haven't taken the bike out for another ride yet...but I have cleaned it superbly and while doing so..With all of this "cleaning" I  become aware that there is a small amount of "weeping" at the location of the rear rocker box cover at the bottom of it......so....now I am on a mission to go after this leak.....I did change all of the fluids and ran the bike momentarily to settle the fluids into the bike.....but right now I am in the cleaning mode on the bike...and getting these leaks addressed.....and thus have decided that I might as well get this all done NOW.....so I am just going to go in and replace the gaskets for both of the rocker boxes....

Ok....so.....

I have gone once again to my indy mechanic....and purchased the following gaskets....I have purchased "james gaskets" not harley gaskets....

The gaskets I have purchased are:

A)  Upper Rocket Cover Gasket
B)  Lower Rocket Cover Gasket
C)  Inner Rocket Gasket
D)  I also purchased the Two Gaskets for the cylinder heads...which the lower rocket cover rests upon....  <~~~~~~Purchased these because my current leak/"weeping" is on my rear rocket cover is at the bottom of the rear rocket cover at the top of the cylinder on the left side...(primary side of bike)

I have heard from enough sources that the rocker boxes typically weep/leak....and I thought since I am seeing it now....I might as well nib it in the bud right away....I think these "newer" gaskets are perhaps better than the old "paper ones"? <~~~any thoughts on the matter......

Ok....so....now that I have the parts.....I am wanting to do this "fix" over the weekend while my son=in-law is in town....last summer we put in Andrews 26g cams and gear drives into my 2002 RKC...and while we WOULD NOT set any speed records.....I have put on over 6,000 miles since he helped me and we have had absolutely no problems.....ok.....so I am hoping to get some "solid" input here on how to do this fix......

I have heard that perhaps I need to remove the front motor mount.....I have heard....I need to remove the gas tank....I havve heard.....different things....I went to my service manual for the 1999 FXR2 and nothing states that the motor mount should be removed to help do this job.....

Ok....so do I need to remove the front motor mounts?
Do I need to remove the tank?
Do I need to remove the carb?
Do I need to remove the exhaust?

Any tips or ideas or assistance would be GREAT!!!!!

I also have heard something about having to deal with the lifters and the push rods.....that finding "TDC" like I did when I replaced the cams in my RKC....I did put adjustable push rods in that bke when I did the cam....

Is it because I am going to remove the lower rocker cover and to replace those cylinder gaskets.....that I am perhaps going to be dealing with the push rods and so forth....

I do have a service manual for the FXR2....and have been reading it.....I am hoping that some of you will have some input for me.....I guess I don't understand having to worry about the push roads when I am not really going to be going below the upper cylinder location just to replace those gaskets....

The objective is to do this on Sunday so hopefully I can gain some insight from some of you here pior to then.....

Regards,

"CLASSIC"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: smittyon66 Sent: 5/28/2005 6:19 AM   Message 2 of 6 in Discussion
If you are gonna change the gaskets between the lower rocker cover and the head, then you have to pull the rocker arms, pushrods and might as well change pushrod tube o-rings.
I actually prefer the replacement Harley gaskets (one-piece tin) on top of the head.
On the old FXR's we have to pull the front motor mount and drop the front of the motor down to gain clearance between the rear cover and the frame. Real tight. Also, I have an allen wrench that I cut down on the short side to get to the rear left cover bolt.
You shouldn't have to pull the carb or exhaust, but you will need the tank out of the way.
Smitty


From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 5/28/2005 6:44 AM   Message 3 of 6 in Discussion
Another question:

Don't you agree if you are having "weeping" right above that cylinder location and below the lower rocker cover on the rear cylinder....that those 2 "particular" gaskets need to be replaced....I can't see that it makes sense NOT to replace those two "cylinder gaskets" that the lower rocker box cover sits on....I know the "cylinder gaskets" that I purchased are indeed both "tin" type gaskets....but the upper, lower, and inner gaskets for the rocker covers are "rubber" and are james gaskets.

So also is your first step to remove the pushrod rod covers and o-rings....just like you do when you are changing a cam?   Also do you have to remove the base or what is called the "tappet guide" in the parts book that covers the lifters....by the way you don't have to pull the lifters to do this do I.....when you say to pull the push rods then I don't need to also pull out the lifters do I for any reason?

Regards,

"Classic"



From: smittyon66 Sent: 5/28/2005 7:52 AM    Recommend   Message 4 of 6 in Discussion
If you can see it leaking between the head and the lower cover, then I would change those gaskets. If not, I would try just changing the rubber gaskets. JMHO. Sometimes it's hard to see the oil coming down the chrome cover but it shows up good on the aluminum.
If you change everything, You are disturbing the push rod tube o-rings. Thats why I would recommend changing them. You don't have to remove the lifter blocks or lifters. The push rods are color coded and have to go back in the same positions.
I would remove the upper tube outer covers first. Then the rocker covers, ect. With the lower rocker boxes loose, you can get the tubes and pushrods out.
Smitty


From: HarleyDave1951 Sent: 5/28/2005 7:41 PM   Message 5 of 6 in Discussion
I just went through this with my 89 FXRS. I had the motor rebuilt by the factory in 99 so it should be the same as yours with the new rocker boxes that were changed around 93. The bottom rocker gaskets were real thin and broken in places (thus the leak). I had to remove the top and front motor mount to get at the rear rocker bolts. I took off the exhaust so it didn't hit the frame when I lowered the front of the motor. I also removed the tank and the ignition(on the side by the rear rocker box). The top 2 pieces came off together. I put it in 2nd gear and turned the rear tire to get the valve springs equal. with a little wiggling and moving and my son on the other side we got the bottom rocker box off without doing anything to the valves or pushrods. We put the James gaskets in place(there are 2 different shaped gaskets under the bottom rocker). One side of the gaskets had a red bead around it like the primary gasket. I rubbed a little silicone on the bottom to hold them in place. We then carefully jimmied the bottom rocker back in place with the rocker arms still attached. Had to make sure the pushrods and valves were in the right place. There were more bolts than I thought holding the bottom box on. 2 allens on the left side. 4 bolts on the top, and 3 in the middle that were lower than the rest. Oh, and we had to take off the voltage regulator and bracket before removing the front motor mount. A jack and a block of wood were used to remove the motor mount and lower the motor.
I hope this doesn't sound like rambling. It was a lot easier than I expected.    Dave

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 5/30/2005 3:59 PM    Message 6 of 6 in Discussion
Hello again....

I want to thank you for all of your input......so here is what I did.....I took most of the advice provided....and here is what happened...

Began working on this Sunday morning at 10:00am...

Now I haven't yet started the engine since finishing the effort here but I plan to do that when my vance & hines pro pipe shows up from Jenni......hopefully that is this week....since I already took off the current exhaust....no sense putting it back on....only to take it off again.....

Ok...so:

1) Removed gas tank.
2) Removed Exhaust.....I couldn't "logicially" see that when the lowering of the engine by the removal of the front motor mount would be really successful without removing the exhaust system.....because the front cylinder header pipe would have simply not allowed the motor to drop enough.....so as I said I removed the entire exhaust system.....
3) removed the air cleaner but not the carb. removing the backing plate simply created more "side room" plus I am going to be installing a screaming eagle air cleaner kit that I just got....so taking this off was simply timely....but I do think that taking it off creates more room to work......how does that song go....."wide open spaces........"
4) Removed the "chromed" regulator, front motor mount bracket, and motor mount, & then loosened the "alignment/sway" bar so that it was free.
Time to do all of this since my tank had gasoline in it was nearly 2 hours....did this the nite before....

Next.....

Sunday Morning...

4)  First step was to Remove both cylinder's spark plugs....and then for the front cylinder found "TDC" (Top Dead Center" by rotating rear tire in 5th gear.....to allow for the push rods to be kept from having potential problems.....and while I must admit I don't entirely understand why any problems might happen....I suppose it has to do with making sure that when you remove the bottom rocker box which is just above the cylinder heads which when removed also removes the rocker arms which keep the push rods into their normal position...and then when you refasten the rocker boxes after inserting the new gaskets have room to resind into their natural position without being bound or creating too much pressure thus avoiding the potential of bending either a push rod or damaging a valve.....

5)  Next Began removal of:
         a) rocker top cover/plate then moved to
         b) rocker middle box cover/plate then moved to
         c) rocker bottom box cover/plate
6)  Cleaned all debrie left from the removal of the rocker boxes covers/plates where old gaskets were....using a "quick evaporating" contact cleaner.....which does not leave a residue....great for cleaning the "chunks" of the old gaskets and so forth.
7)  After cleaning the "boxes"  took the middle rocker box....and installed a product called the "Cure" which basically you create slightly larger 1/8" hole by drilling with a 1/8" drill bit into the already "smaller" hole where oil already passes through (if you were to see a diagram this would make obvious sense) and then taking a 13/32" drill bit and expanding the current already existing hole and then inserting a vent extension into the "enlarged vent hole that was drilled with the 13/32" bit. This product is produced by Creative Cycle Products and is called the "Nose Bleed Cure" This kit reduces or eliminates the collection of oil at the bottom of the air cleaner assembly. The design allows the engine to breathe just as it did before you do this modicication, without bleed over oil mess that can occur.  The new "Cure Vent Plus" also reduces internal pressure of the engine. Extensive testing has proven the design of the "Cure" and "Cure Vent Plus".  The vent chamber design and the "Cure and "Cure Vent Plus" combine to eliminate the venting of oil into the air cleaner.  The "Cure and "Cure Vent Plus" is not able to come out or even work loose.  If you chave technical questions about this product simply call Creative Cycle Products at 1-800-368-6217 or see the product at www.creativecycleprod.com.  The cost is approximately $35.00 and works on the evo engines....and since you are already with plate in your hand this procedure adds approximately10 minutes to the job.  Easy directions too!!!!!

8 )  Once the above was done then the next step was to put the "cleaned up" bottom rocker box back on with the new cylinder gaskets below it (if that makes sense) then torquing the bolts to spec.  Next the middle rocker box was put back on again torquing to specs the bolts....and finally then putting the rocker box top cover and retorquing the 4 bolts....
       
       note:  I would say that owning the FXR2 & FXR3 Service Manual would be of
                 importance for this work. it helps with showing you what sequence to remove bolts and what torque
                 specs to use to retorque them too.

It should also be noted that the push rods were exposed visually once the bottom rocker box cover was removed...it is this rocker box (the bottom one) that sits above the cylinder head that also includes the rocker arms along with 6" pins that keep the rocker arms from falling out or perhaps better described as keeping them in place......BUT I will say that the removing of the push rods or the push rod covers was unnecessary and not done by me....they could have have been easily pulled out but again no reason to...since they were loose and free.....by finding TDC they were at their lowest point anyway.....and the "tension" they were under was removed while the work was being done.....I would also like to note that within about 10 minutes after you refasten the bottom rocker box cover/plate as you move from the bottom rocker cover and reinstalling it and bolting it down with retorqued bolts....that the "original push rods" were able to be spun with one finger and thumb meanign that they were not under pressure or a "bound" state.......just as was stated within the service manual.  So because of this and my plans to change the cam out eventually perhaps this fall, while I did purchase new o~rings for the push rod covers the covers were not taken apart to be done at this time and so I did not replace the o-rings.   

I really think finding the "TDC" is critical to this effort...

I probably should also note that putting some folded up rags at about the location of where the engine mount would be if it were not removed allows for there to be the slightest amount of gap so that the front cylinder  rocker box top cover does not rest against the frame which of course would make it a bit impossible to remove the front cylinder rocker box covers without scratching them....I am sure this could all be done by one mechanic...but really...I think having a second person available to do some things is very helpful!

Once the front cylinder was done.....the second cylinder was repeated....the same way....the service manual does provide the proper sequence for removing the bolts from atop of the rocker box cover and for retorquing them as well......it would seem to me that you would need a "claws foot" adaptor for the rear cylinder to properly torque some of those bolts....that leave little room for both an allen socket and a torque wrench to fit beneath the frame.....in my case...with the tools that I had for each cylinder.  There are approximately 12 bolts per cylinder/rocker box (estimate) so 24 altogether I would say that 20 were able to be torqued satisfactorily with a torque wrench and socket....and in my case the 4 that were not were able to be hand tightened within 99% accuracy....something I felt that with that level of tolerance I could live with......with the claws foot I would say the other 4 bolts could be satisfactorily torqued.

If you recall in my case my FXR2 with 5,490 miles was just beginning to "weep" on the rear cylinder....and since I had heard of this happening I decided to nib it in the bud right away....my front cylinder was having no issues.....so....I decided to do both cylinders...and to tell you the truth on the rear cylinder, the bottom rocker cover's gaskets (cylinder head gaskets) were definitely in need of replacing....there was shafing occuring.....those "original" gaskets are extremely thin and very "paper like" the ones I replaced them with were much more "beefer" for lack of better term....realizing that "beefer" is a realitive term.....sort of a
"tin" like material.....not at all a rubber type of gasket....I guess I would say that I feel I have a more substansive gasket now in place with the ones I just installed.....

Also note....that while I did not do this....that perhaps if you were to have the front cylinder rocker box covers off and then go immeditately to doing the rear cylinder rocker boxes and removing them that you might create a bit more room to work on the rear cylinder rocker boxes.....just a thought......if you don't do this....then realize that for the rear cylinder rocker boxes you will take the bottom two "plates/rocker covers" out together....because of the frame being in the way keeping you from removing two of the bolts which when loosened do not have enough room to be able to come out completely for the middle rocker box cover/plate....so by removing the bolts holding the bottom rocker boxes you can then simply remove them both together at once....which emlinates a potential problem.

So....over all I would not rate this job as totally overwhelming.....it's fairly noncomplex....it seems a bit daunting.....at first....but the key I believe is having two people to bounce your ideas off of while progressing....and it helps to have one reading about the torque values and so forth.......having a service manual will immensely help.

The time it took to remove both cylinder rocker boxes, clean all parts, replace with new gaskets, and also putting in the "Cure" product....and to reinstall the front motor mount for me with my son-in-law was 6 hours....I know many of you will think that is nuts....and it shouldn't take that long.....so to remove the exhaust, air cleaner, to remove the tank, to remove the front motor mounts being 2 hours + the 6 hours to do the replacement of gaskets for both rocker boxes and reinstall the front motor mount......so far we are talking 8 hours.....
I will assume that it will take another hour to replace the air cleaner and tank.....so total time for me for this replacement of the rocker box gaskets for both cylinders is 9 hours.

The cost of which for me was $97.00 for gaskets and the "Cure" product.

Another of my buddies just had this work done at our local indy on an FXR3.....and the parts and labor for him was $270.00.   The cost associated to labor was equivilant to about 3.25 hours.

I know mechanics do this "every day"  but I find it hard to believe that being able to do this job in 3.25 hours is realistic...preparing to take things apart, taking things apart, and putting things back together....

So once again I wish to thank everyone's input......and reflections....they were helpful in formulating a plan and providing a level of confidence to once again partake in another adventure......by the way the 6 hours I spent with my son-in-law was/is PRICELESS~~~~~~!!!!!!!

Regards,

"CLASSIC"

[ClassicRider2002]

Anything added beyond this point is new information.

Regards,

"Classic"