REPRINT FROM OLD HTT: 1999 FXR2 INNER PRIMARY LEAK!!! HELP

[ClassicRider2002]

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS A REPRINT TOPIC FROM "OLD" HTT

I have saved many great topical discussions as "links" over the years and would hate to see these lost, so I am reprinting this TOPIC here, which may "perhaps" help some.

TOPIC:  1999 FXR2 INNER PRIMARY LEAK!!!!  HELP  06-07-05


From: ClassicRider2002  (Original Message) Sent: 6/7/2005 7:29 PM   Message 1 of 9 in Discussion
Finally we are having some great riding weather......there are some great wrenches here that will undoubtedly have some great recommendations....

So here is my issue....

1999 FXR2 6,000 miles....have been dealing with some oil leaks.....in the past couple of weeks since acquiring the bike I have cleaned it....and replaced the clutch cover 0-ring, the outer primary gasket, and the inspection cover gasket.  everything was successful there no more leaks.....even though perhaps the leaks never existed there......with a very clean engine I took a 70 mile ride....and discovered that I still have either "an" oil leak or "some" oil leaks....(disheartening) but a day later I am ready to attack these now.....I believe I know positively that we are not talking transmission...because of the scent of the oil leak, so it has to be (wouldn't you agree) limited to the "inner primary" location. I know you can't see what I see right now.....but if it were transmission the scent would be different plus I put in Red Line Shockproof gear oil which of course is a strawberry color....

So far with the help of my parts book there seems to be the potential for three locations that I can see that oil might be leaking from...at the location of the "inner primary"  and they are:

1)  Large O-Ring which is located at the "inner primary"
      housing cover  part# 11147 (it's almost like the clutch
      cover/derby cover o~ring)

2)  Oil Seal  part#  12052    this is the oil seal that is located
      where the main shaft bearing is

3)  Oil Seal  part#  12066    this is the oil seal for the Inner
     Primary Jackshaft bore.

Are there any other suggestions than the above?  Not that I can logically see from reading the parts book...but that's why I am asking one never knows.....

Ok....so here are my questions.....has anyone "chased" these leaks like I am now?

When I pull the outer primary cover off....I know I am going to see the "clutch" and plates.....any secrets about what to do here.....apparently in the service manual they show a part number of HD-41214 which is the "primary drive locking tool" that is used to lock the primary chain from moving.....my son-in-law has thought that we might be able to use an impact wrench to "quickly" undo the compensating sprocket nut as well as the clutch hub mainshaft nut....so in this case would that "primary drive locking tool" be really needed?  and then what about retorqing these nuts.....will I be able to do it satisfactorily with an impact wrench....again any secrets?   I know that the torque values for the compensating sprocket nut is 150-165 ft lbs and the clutch hub mainshaft nut is 70-80 ft lbs.  Any experiences of simply once again doing these with the impact wrench if you don't have the "primary drive locking tool"?

Ok there is always something that is helpful when you dig into something like this.....

The service manual says that on the inboard side of the primary chaincase, apply silicone sealer around the two rear chaincase to engine bolt holes as well as being applied to the four bolts that are installed in the above holes...Supposedly the silcone sealer will prevent oil leakage from the primary chaincase.  I purchased some Ultra Black Hi-Temp RTV Silicone Gasket Maker by Permatex.....the problem with this tube it doesn't define what high temp is.....so any comments about using this product or should I acquire another specific high temp silcone sealer.....I don't want to have to go back in here because of a leak....so that's why I am asking?..........

Ok so essentially any other ideas or helpful hints I might use with this job.....

Last week I did the rocker head gaskets and everything is great with that effort.....and the comments I received helped a great deal in making that a huge success....

You know really it is fun to be gaining the confidence to break into your own engine and see positive results plus you learn about your bike.....

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: HyperDetroit Sent: 6/8/2005 1:10 AM   Message 2 of 9 in Discussion
I just did the same thing on my 89 FXR.  The main shaft seal was leaking like there is no tomorrow.  When I pulled the inner primary off, it was plain to see the leak was coming from the mainshaft seal.  There's nothing complicated about this job, just follow the manual instructions in regards to torque specs and use loctite and you'll be fine.   Hyper
 

From: FLHSbob Sent: 6/8/2005 5:22 AM   Message 3 of 9 in Discussion
Just did a complete sprockets/rear belt/tranny seals/stator/rotor change on my 92 FLHS.  Check out this link.  It was invaluable to me.  http://www.harleyhog.co.uk/beltinstall.htm
Wouldn't use a impact wrench on the compensator nut.  The magnets in the rotor are glued on and are easily loosened.  Bob
      

From: TCSTD Sent: 6/8/2005 6:16 AM   Message 4 of 9 in Discussion
.........Wouldn't use a impact wrench on the compensator nut.  The magnets in the rotor are glued on and are easily loosened.

I  Agree, why look for trouble, do it manually with a pipe for leverage


From: Redrocket_ Sent: 6/8/2005 6:54 AM   Message 5 of 9 in Discussion
I never did get my 89 to stay sealed...Went with a Primo Brute 3 internal belt with Pro-Clutch. Best money I ever spent. My wife loves how easy the clutch pull is.


From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/8/2005 10:45 AM   Message 6 of 9 in Discussion
Thanks....guys.....
Ok if not suggesting a impact wrench what do I need to do to keep the sprocket from moving am I committed to acquiring the HD #41214 which is the "primary drive locking tool" to hold everything in place while doing this removal and installation of the compensating sprocket nut/bolt and clutch nut?

Regards,

"Classic"


From: RynoFXR Sent: 6/8/2005 11:26 AM   Message 7 of 9 in Discussion
I used an old napa screwdriver with a semi-hard plastic handle.
It was a short driver, so it fit in perfectly length-wise. As soon as i started to crank on it, the handle wedged itself in between chain and sprocket, the teeth dug in to the handle and wha-la! Wedged it under the clutch sprocket to remove compensator, then wedged it under the main sprocket to tighten.
Worked like a charm.
I was told not to use anything metal for fear of chipping or breaking teeth.

 
From: FLHSbob Sent: 6/8/2005 1:01 PM   Message 8 of 9 in Discussion
I followed the suggestion from the link I gave you above. 

I made a piece of 1/4" flat metal stock 1" wide by 7.5" long, (the length may vary depending on your bike model). I dressed (rounded) the ends to approximate the sprocket teeth for better fit into the teeth.   I placed it between the teeth of the clutch and compensating sprockets - one direction for loosening and the other for  tightening .  It worked fine for my 92 FLHS without any problems. You probably could use a similar piece of real hardwood if you are nervous using metal.   Bob 

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/13/2005 8:14 PM   Message 9 of 9 in Discussion
Alrighty.....last week...I went into my inner primary going after some leaking that I determined from the week ago was not attributed to the outer primary or inspection cover or the clutch cover....after washing the bike for several hours and then going out one day for a ride only to discover that I obviously had some leaking of oil....it was determined that based upon visual inspection the next obvious effort would have to be to remove the inner primary and replace the jackstart oil seal, the main sprocket seal, and finally the inner primary housing o~ring.

The following were the results:

1) I washed the bike very well....
2) Put bike on a stand
3) removed the footpeg on left side
4) removed shifter arm
5) Removed Clutch Cover
6) Removed Inspection Cover
7) Removed Outer Primary Cover

this is where it became interesting.......I did not have the "inner primary locking tool" the service manual calls for....and I was directed to Harley Hog for assistance.....I will say that his efforts are ALWAYS helpful....his effort that I referred to was directed towards replacing a belt....while mine was looking for leaks...BUT his progression visually assisted me with getting to my leaks.....his was also done on a 2000 Road King while mine of course was dealing with an 1999 FXR2.  It should be noted however that my outer primary was indeed the same as a 2002 RKC and that my clutch seems to be of a 2002 RKC as well.

There are 9 bolts internally that "fasten" the inner primary to the engine case as a unit.   There are 5 bolts that are inside of the inner primary, 2 bolts on the "outside" of the inner primary, 2 starter bolts that go back into the case from the right side which you have to reach across back into to remove the bolts from the right side of the bike...and finally there is one bolt that "fastens" itself to the inner primary case underneath at the location of the ground wire.....so there are a total of 9 bolts...used to "fasten" the inner primary to the case of the bike....At best the service manual does not do a very good job of depicting this.....and while the "harley hog" guide is quick to point out by stating he has missing steps in the progression of his belt replacement you are actually left to figure out these to the best of your ability.

So going back to the "step(s)" of removing the compensator sprocket nut as well as the clutch basket.....you are faced with either purchasing the "primary drive locking tool" or you are perhaps faced also with making a tool as "Harley hog" points out....or you can do what I eventually did and seemed to be very successful....the suggestion of which was given to me by a buddy of mine....I simply folded a clean hand towel four times and "stuck" it into the inner primary chain location while first attempting to "loosen" the compensating nut.....eventually (and not too long I might add) this "towel" locked up the chain and kept it from allowing the chain to move and while I stradled bike and placed the back brake on and my son-in-law used a 1 3/4" socket he was able to "break loose" the compensating sprocket nut.....we then moved the folded up towel to the clutch location and repeated the steps for the "loosening" of the clutch basket nut persay with a 1 3/16" socket.  (Of which Harley Hog did point out you would need both of these sockets...to which I am very thankful!!!)  The same steps were used with the towel when reassembly was accomplished and again successfully!!!!!......nothing was marred and nothing was harmed.....while both nuts were indeed very very tight they did eventually "break" loose while using a pipe extension to create enough leverage to indeed break loose each bolt.   Remember that the clutch basket bolt is REVERSE threads to break it off you go the opposite direction of what you would think to do....this is INDEED mentioned by both the service manual as well as "Harley Hog"

The other items of interest were that I used a "red rag" folded up several times to wrap around the jackstart spline before removing the nut.....and used a small pair of vice grips to hold the spline in place while that particular bolt was removed....again....because of the thickness of the "rag" no damage was done to the spline.....the key with this effort was indeed to realize that the bolt is not torqued that heavily to begin with and it was removed fairly easily....taking care to not damage the spline was quite easy.  Please note that after I reinstalled this particular nut I learned later that the recommendation by the service manual to torque to 84-108 inch lbs should be modified to 60 - 80 inch lbs as someone actually had their bolt break and while I personally had no problems there appears to be enough evidence to suggest reducing the torque to this level. 

Also remember that the "shoe housing" that the chain uses to keep itself under tension is also removed during this process....

Once inner primary was removed....what was noted most was to see how many of the bolt holes of the 9 were indeed filled with silicone from the factory.....the service manual does a fairly proficient job of noting to make sure you "resilcone" the appropriate bolt holes while coating the bolts appropriately as well....

This is where I think the issue between doing this job yourself and allowing a professional comes in...it is exactly at this point that I took over an hour to clean the inner primary both on the outside as well as the inside...and also to remove all of the silicone from each and every bolt hole that had some in them....as well as the bolts.....I cleaned all 9 bolts....very well with a dremmel using a brush attachment....which by the way works fantastic for this type of procedure.....

If you don't remove the silicone from inside before reapplying new silicone remember silicone does not stick to silicone....the service manual is quick to point out that IF YOU don't silicone the inner primary bolts you will develop leaks....well I can assure you I was not interested in any more leaks so I took a cleaner to the bolts and bolt holes as well as a bolt tap to clean out the inner threads as well....running the tapping threads through several times....finally all was clean....believe me this is the area I believe a professional would NOT do but to me is very critical.....<~~~~~just my humble opinion!!!!!!!  In resiliconing the bolts and bolt holes I used a product I purchased at Napa by permatex which was "black" high temp silicone sealant....the high temp on this package is clearly unmarked as to how high temp it is...but it was labeled as RVT just as the service manual calls for....at Napa they do have a red colored HIGH temp silicone sealant which indeed states to what degree it's high temp is....BUT you can only imagine "red" oozing out of your inner primary...no no no...lol...

Oh yes and as for the three oil issues that could be addressed here.....there is the inner primary housing O~Ring....this one is simple .....it is pretty much like the clutch outer primary O~Ring.......the next one is the jackstart oil seal....and next is the mainshaft oil seal....both of these oil seals have an update seal/model....MAKE sure if indeed you decide to use OEM HD seals to go to your HD dealer and acquire each seal but with an "A" after each appropriate part number as that is what destingishes or marks the "NEW" part numbers from the "old"....the bulletins put out by HD instruct the dealers to USE UP their supply of the old ones first....BUT if you ask for the part numbers with the "A" you should be sure to get the updated ones....and believe me they are DIFFERENT....both of them for example "popped" out fairly simply.....both of them went in with some difficulty which lends you to believe that there is indeed a difference in design........to reinstall them you have options.....we did not have an "arbor" press....so what was used was a larger socket....to match up with the edges and to slowly "tap" them into place....the jackstart oil seal was so tight that there was excess rubber from the seal left on the edges of which it was tapped into....we removed this "excess" with an exacto knife....so that particles would not eventually be left to deteriorate or break away and then float into the case persay.....remember your seal is mostly related to its ability to seal the opposite side so this "excess" is of little consequence.....you also must make sure you don't jam or put the seals in at severe angles...keeping them straight while going in is very important or you could "JACK" everything up....lol NO PUNN INTENDED.....

ahh yes perhaps I have my description a bit out of order BEFORE you rebolt the inner primary case back into the engine case make sure you replace your seals...in my case that's why I was in there....I wish to thank the other posts that talked about the UPDATED oil seals.....which no one at my dealership knew about nor did the independent mechanic I went to buy the seals from to begin with you know how it is sometimes we believe the indypendent mechanic has a better handle on "upgraded" or "updated" parts....I went in looking for "james" gaskets and seals...and I left with my money and in this particular case walked out of HD with ugraded OEM parts......and later gave him the bulletins and asked for my money back...not angrily of course but hopefully in an attitude of helping someone else out later on.....I realize harley is always changing things......it just goes to show you the VALUE of this board as well as Harley Lore....!!!!!!!!

We got everything bolted back together.....as one person in a post told me this is a fairly easy job...and for the most part I would agree...but only due to the reading of the service manual, asking questions here and getting some answers, and using "harley hog" for help as well.....HE DOES A GREAT JOB!!!!!   THANK YOU EVERYONE~~~~

All in all this took 6 hours for my son-in-law and I to perform and like I said 1 of those hours was spent simply cleaning the inner primary cover and making it free from silicone....I also cleaned all the bolts as well.

I realize again most of you would be much faster at this but I will say I have ridden the bike 70 miles so far and finally HAVE NO LEAKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again the time spent with my son-in-law and energy was priceless.........

I was quoted by my independent mechanic that this job would cost $290.00 with all of the gaskets which would include again putting on a new outer primary gasket, clutch cover O~Ring, as well as the inspection cover gasket,  so essentially $235.00 for labor.....which means they were planning on about 4.5 hours or so of labor.....I do have pictures if anyone is interested in seeing of this.....and I can e~mail you a link to see them....I think I took about 8 photos....if it does help anyone.....

So in the last couple of years, I have worked with my son-in-law in taking out the chain tensioners and putting in a new gear drive and cams into my 2002 RKC and I have done the rocker boxes on this FXR2 as well as replacement of oil seals and gaskets for the outer primary and inner primary also on the FXR2.  Plus have installed an oil cooler on an 2003 Dyna Low Rider as well as an oil cooler on my 2002 RKC.....all with help from here and Harley Hog and my local buddy, and my son-in-law...and finally I am learning to turn a wrench too.....I must add it helps to have the right tools...but who would have ever thunk a towel could be a "right tool"  LOL!!!!!

One other note.....in the 2003 Dyna Service manual there is a spacer that is identified within the parts book...I thought I should perhaps add one as well so I purchased one.....when I got into the inner primary....guess what the spacer was already there.....perhaps this is a case in point that because these bikes were put together through the CVO program the manuals are perhaps "less" accurate but regardless the spacer is there just like in that service manual...so I have an extra spacer...lol....

Regards

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

Anything added beyond this point is new information.

Regards,

"Classic"