REPRINT FROM OLD HTT: 1999 FXR2 OIL IS EVERYWHERE ANY IDEAS????

[ClassicRider2002]

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS A REPRINT TOPIC FROM "OLD" HTT

I have saved many great topical discussions as "links" over the years and would hate to see these lost, so I am reprinting this TOPIC here, which may "perhaps" help some.

TOPIC:  1999 FXR2 OIL IS EVERYWHERE ANY IDEAS? ? ? ? ? 07-09-05


From: ClassicRider2002  (Original Message) Sent: 7/9/2005 8:25 PM   Message 1 of 21 in Discussion
It seems I have been chasing oil leaks since I bought this bike....are evos just about this or do I have a bad bike?  I have two twin cams and I have no issues....but I get this evo....and it's one thing after another...it's really starting to become discouraging!!!!!.....perhaps this isn't the best time to post....it feels so raw right now....yah know what I mean...ok here's what's going on....

1999 FXR2 purchased in may....I have had the bike for 632 miles, currently the bike has 6,072 miles on it....upon arrival from riding the bike home 307 miles from where I purchased it I discovered an oil leak on my driveway....well all of that led to discovering the rear rocker box was weeping, along with some outer primary leaks, as well as discovering that I also had a leak occuring at the inner primary starter jackshaft oil lip seal, so I replaced it, and also replaced both the main shaft oil seal and the inner primary housing o~ring....while I was in there....pretty much at the same time I replaced all of the rocker box gaskets for both cylinders.....after which I put 37 additional miles on the bike with no leaks....thought I was home free.....and explained the oil leaks away as,  you know dried up seals as the bike didn't have that many miles on it...you know that sort of thing....UNTIL TODAY.....

Start the bike up....a buddy is with me....I seemed to believe I was hearing an air noise....you know something a bit different but not enough to make you do anything about it....I did notice it enough to have my buddy listen but he didn't hear anything so...I thought nothing of it.....we got on the bikes and took off....ok perhaps its best to let you know before I ever take off on the bike...I allow the bike to warm up until I feel a slight warmth in the top of the rocker box without my glove on...as soon as I feel that...then I drive very conservatively for the first 10 miles...that's how I was taught to treat my twin cams so I treat this one the same way....went about another 30 miles doing so very hard going up some twistees through the mountains....and stopped for lunch.....got off the bike and checked it real well and no issues....went another 20 miles and let my buddy ride the bike....still no issues.....everything was clean....go another 40 miles and no problems......then I begin to feel the bike running a bit differently.....when I stop at a light....it's one of those feelings where you just feel the bike is going to die....you know that sound.....give it a little gas and there is a delayed reaction then it responds one of those things.....it was during these last 50 miles that everything seemed to become very different.....I finally was concerned enough about the response I was getting, so  I put the bike on a country road and I slowed the bike down to 40 miles an hour in 3rd gear at about 2600 rpm.....so not lugging the engine....and you know, similar to being in a city...where you hold your hand on the throttle and you can feel most everything.....and then it went from being smooth to where it would have these slight little hiccups where you could feel the slightest roughness in the engine you know those slight hiccups where you feel like no gas is getting through to the carb....the closet thing I can relate it to is like when you have to move your petcock to reserve because you need to go to reserve...of course I had a half a tank so that's not the issue....and again it wasn't as strong a feeling as that is when you have to rotate the lever of your petcock...but you know how the bike misses.....anyway.....it was doing that at exactly that speed.....when I went up in throttle no issues at all....

Then I got to this stretch in the road where it is very isolated the bike seemed to be running again at a speed of 65 normally...and so I wanted to put the bike up to full throttle....it would perhaps be the last time I could do this before I put a new cam in and I just wanted to have a recording of experience with the stock cam....the bike was smooth as silk at speed....it was handling so so so so so so so well.....just like glass.....it got up to 108 miles an hour going west with a bit of a head wind and a slight up grade.....very very very slight....so that's all I could get out of it.....but the important thing is that the bike was handling very smoooooth..

Now I am running a V&H 2 into 1 pro pipe, and the carb set with a
29008-90A  Evolution 1340 High Flow Air Cleaner, K&N Filter, 29310-93 Cylinder Head Breather Manifold Kit, 27094-88 Jet needle/carb needle  Sportster, 27170-89 45 slow Idle Jet.

After that little run which lasted about 3-4 miles...just enough to get it up there....and come back down sort of thing.....the thing I will remember most about that experience is just how smooth the bike ran handling wise.....also I do have new metzlers on it and I do have a TB2612-1 Custom Cycle Engineering Chrome Fork Truss/brace Drag Specialities Part # DS 222707. 

After this, I spent about 20 miles back into town on some interstate highway of which I went around 75 mph.......once I get into town....hit the first stop light....I am sitting at the light while it's red....letting the bike idle...and then all of a sudden it's like it's going to die...you know that dreaded feeling when people are behind you and you just know the bike is going to die....and so I quickly give it some throttle and it coughs, and  upon giving it some more throttle no response.....it just acts like it is going to choke and puke....no back firing but you know that scrambling feeling....it's a very uneasy feeling....finally within about 3-4 seconds things seem to straighten out.  I assure you no more hand off the throttle until I get home,  feeling like I need to keep it at 1400 rpm's  while my throttle is set up to idle at 1,000 rpm....but who knows for sure with these harley tacs...anyway that's what it reads.....while it is idling it doesn't act wierd...but it's like it works itself right into this problem....idling smoothly and then bam...there it is.....

ok so I negotiate through a couple of more lights....without any more issues get home....ONCE I get home I let the bike idle for a moment and just like as if I were at a light again...it does DIE!!!!!! and this is what I find:

There is oil everywhere.....it apears to be comming from the front top rocker cover..., I pull the air cleaner cover off nothing to speak of look at the filter nothing.....clean....but on the front of the air cleaner is oil, splattered....I see oil dripping from the left front cylinder corner of the rocker cover, the oil is even back to the front of my left shock, and oil has affixed itself to my left side pannel cover, there is oil on the left outer primary...but I can't tell if it has leaked on to there and then splatted to where it headed next...there is even a few drops of oil in the front cylinder spark plug area....where the spark plug goes in to......I know it's perhaps "flown" into that location....there is oil on the back of the front fender, and on the chrome regulator below the oil filter, there is oil on the filter, there are traces of oil on the fins of the left side of the cylinders...you know slight splatting.....as you can tell oil is everywhere....it's dripped down my muffler....and ridden along the bottom edge of the heat shield....

And by the way it was probably a 90 degree day....no humidity at the time...around 3:00pm in the afternoon....

Ok....so then after about a half hour later I start the bike to see if I can see any more oil develop....and while I don't, I do hear...this air leakage sound.....only this time it's very predominant like a HISSSSING sound...and I trace it right to the front cylinder right above where the front exhaust pipe exits the head...but it's definitely NOT comming from there...because I can put my fingers right in front of the top cover of the rocker box and feel air comming out of there...like Shhhh Shhhh Shhhh Shhhh.... you know that air sound....and I can feel it..and I can use my fingers (while in a glove because of the heat temperature) to cover it and stop it.....it's about a 1.5" long area...it's definitely not comming from the Rocker spacer (middle rocker cover) nor is it comming out below the spacer or at the Inner Rocker (bottom Rocker cover)....I definitely have an air leak comming from the top rocker cover...and it must have been developing when I asked my buddy if he was hearing anything back at the beginning of the day......

Anyway this was a 150 mile ride day..... so.....

Questions:

1) could this air leak allow oil to flow out of it?
2) could this air leak be making the rougher idle and when running it at 40 mph having it feel as I described?
3) could this air leak be causing the bike to want to die at idle.....
4) what have I done?
5) and what could have caused it
6) apparently there is alot of pressure up there is this correct? because you can certainly hear alot of "air' escaping...
7) now am I correct in thinking that oil is being sloshed around up there and could then be leaking....

I will say that I did NOT notice any oil leaking from this spot Once I turned the bike on and allowed it to idle....eventually by the way it died just like it would had done before

I am sorry for the length here....but I thought the more information the better perhaps???

This really has me discouraged.....I mean heck 600 miles of ownership and nearly 2 months later....and all I have done is chase oil around on this thing.....I hate oil leaks.....can you feel my pain? ? ? ?

It's getting to the point like pavlov's dogs...you know ride your bike oil leak, ride your bike oil leak,,,,clean the bike, ride oil leak.....

ANY HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: JAMESP1232 Sent: 7/9/2005 9:04 PM   Message 2 of 21 in Discussion   

Classic, my evo has the same breather and head breathing manifold as yours. As far as the question do all evos leak oil...well....the only place my 98 has ever leaked is around the front banjo fitting of the head breather manifold. I posted this last week. I tried to tighten the front banjo bolt and thought I stripped my head. I got some teflon washers to go on both sides of the banjo fittings and used the thin stainless washers on either side. When I took the manifold apart I discovered the the head was luckily not stripped at all but I had sheared the banjo bolt...lucky me...I do not have my manifold feeding into my carb backplate. It is routed behind the rear pushrods and terminates into a little filter tucke between the motor and trannie....Fortunatly that is)knock on wood) the only oil leak my old evo has ever had. The rocker box gaskets were replaced in 99 when the first cam upgrade happened....all other gaskets are original with the exception of the pushrod tube and derby O rings and the inspection cover gaskets. I suppose that my time is com ing but I really cant bitch...  I know that I run my idle soeed a little lowe but I have the perfect    Po   Ta    Toe    thing going on...not a shovel quality but with the stroke length of the evo it still potato's well.

If your head breather is plumbed into the intake you might consider rerouting it away from the carb when you sort out ypur oil issues as I am sure you will.

Good luck....I know you want give up on your FXR because like you said  at 108 mph it was smooth as silk.....that will keep you coming back for more....JAMESP


From: JAMESP1232 Sent: 7/9/2005 9:09 PM   Message 3 of 21 in Discussion
Classic, if your head breather is still plumbed into the intake throuhg the backplate, that could cause a stumble at idle if in fact you are getting any quanity of oil "mist" through there. When you had your top end apart did you replace the rubber umbrella valves?


From: sevenlivesleft Sent: 7/9/2005 9:41 PM   Message 4 of 21 in Discussion
The only help I can give you is don't use so many -you knows and publish it in papper back. #1,2&3 would have to be yes.
I don't know enough to help you but I did read it all so I feel obligated to respond.  My 98 EVO had a rocker box leak @ 1200 miles on the way home from Sturgis back in "98 .Had it fixed under warranty and it blew oil with in 1000 miles,with the HD gasket.Took it to a local speed shop and He put a silicone bead gasket in it from Custom Chrome,that He said would never fail and it never did leak a drop in 50,000 miles so far.  I may not of helped you but I had to try after all that good reading.


From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 7/9/2005 10:49 PM   Message 5 of 21 in Discussion
JameSP...
thanks for all of your input...
I am doing what you are doing as well NOT running back into my manifold or my carb back plate as I run a tube/hose that runs down between my pushrod covers down the engine along the the underneath part of my frame......and allows any excess oil to drip out there.....I am sure EPA loves me....

The rubber umbrella valves? ? ? ? ?  at first I didn't know what you were talking about...looked at my parts book...part # 26856-89.  no I did not replace these....should I have...and so what is it that this actually do? And since I didn't what could be the result? ? ? ? ?

I did however install when I was replacing the rocker gaskets:
Part #28560 <~~~not a harley part, I am not sure if this is Creative Cycle Products own part number or perhaps a Drag Specialities part number but here is what it applies to:

"The Cure" is made by Creative Cycle Products â€œNose Bleed Cure” For Rocker Boxes Includes Vent Extensions To Raise The Oil Mist Vent Height To Prevent Oil From Dripping

http://www.directparts.com/ccp/ccp_main.html  <~~~here is a web site to read about it.... I installed the cure vent plus system.....

JameSP you are so right.....smoooooooth as glass....and it's enough to bring you back that's for SURE!!!!  Seriously it was a moment in time I will always remember.....it's hard to explain.....and that's with a 21" front tire with spokes too as that's what's on an FXR2

Sevenlivesleft......If I don't get this problem taken care of would you mind becomming my editior.....I feel 10 more chapters comming on!!!!!!! Thanks for reading......but only in paper back? ? ? ?  LAUGHING!!!!!  I know I deserved that comment......it's miserable to live in my mind I promise you.....all of these details "YOU KNOW" just come out.....and this happened and this happened....oh and this.....see I didn't mention I checked the banjo nuts and every thing was fine for both of them and I didn't mention that I was NOT running that oil mist back into the my carb....see......I missed those details.....smiles....

Hey seven....at least you had some good reading right? ? ? ?  I am sitting here bummed and into my shirt sleeves with oil.....snif snif....and I bet you are sitting in air conditioning with a nice cool soda as well.....reading all about my sorrows.....

And THANK YOU For responding....glad you did.....that gasket that he installed for you are you talking about rocker box gaskets or head gaskets.....I know I don't have a head gasket problem based upon where the "air is leaking from"  do you know what part numbers he installed? 

You know I have reread my newspaper article above and for the life of me at least for this experience I find nothing else to add....

I need some help.....what would cause a leak like I am experiencing......was I abusing the bike?  At least I am glad I found out about this before I go up to Sturgis next month......I am starting to loose confidence with this bike.....ride it...check for oil...no oil ride it further...check for oil....oil...clean the bike...ride some more....find out where oil is comming from...tear bike apart fix oil....do you see a pattern here.....

Ok so I have told you my symptoms who has the diagnosis.....I mean (this is where I could insert YOU KNOW) if I took this to a mechanic what would he say? ? ? ? ?   Why do I have air comming out of that section of the top rocker box area? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: sevenlivesleft Sent: 7/10/2005 8:00 AM   Message 6 of 21 in Discussion
I don't know the # but it was a rocker box  gasket I was having problems with also .All I can remember is the gasket had a blue silicone strip in the middle of it. Now I will have a beer not a soda.
   

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 7/10/2005 9:32 AM   Message 7 of 21 in Discussion
ok....so if you go to the website that I listed above in post #5 you will see perhaps what I see is what my problem may have been by reading their information.......I installed the "cure" product not the "Cure Vent Plus" I will call and talk with their technical support on Monday and perhaps see if that is indeed part of my problem...it sure seems to fit my description...WHAT DO YOU THINK??

It appears now that the umbrella valves can harden and quit working.....given they are 6 years old.....it looks like I will go back into both rocker boxes and change them again....

Also....does anyone know that apparently the sportser gaskets for the bottom gasket that sit above the cylinder head and are at the bottom of the lower rocker box come as a one piece gasket vs the two piece gaskets....I am talking about part numbers 16778-84B and 16779-84D....So has anyone installed the "sportster" version of the 1 piece gasket with good results? ? ?

Just trying to figure out my problem....anyone have any other ideas....It sure seems like I blew out the "top" rocker gasket...and it was a Geniune James Gasket as well......

Thanks!!!

Regards,

"Classic"


From: Bearman1755 Sent: 7/10/2005 9:33 AM   Message 8 of 21 in Discussion
my 97 EVO softail had oil leak  that  looked like  the base gasket leaking.  After a ride there would be oil around on the rear left side of the rear cylinder , right where the cylinder meets the case, and up on about 4 fins. Looked like the base gasket leaking and the air turblance was blowing the oil up on the fins.  It turned out to be a cracked cylinder sleeve, the oil was coming right out thru the cylinder then dripping down making it look like the base gasket leaking.  The bike was running fine, no loss of power, idled good , etc..


From: AzHardan Sent: 7/10/2005 9:40 AM   Message 9 of 21 in Discussion
Make sure that the top cover and the middle section are neither warped.  If either is they will leak.   


From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 7/10/2005 5:38 PM   Message 10 of 21 in Discussion
Ok....so how do you check to see if they are warped??  
thanks for everyone's input.....

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: 94fxstc2 Sent: 7/10/2005 7:36 PM   Message 11 of 21 in Discussion
use a sraight edge and no more than .004 with a feeler gauge 


From: JohnS_Rosamond_CA Sent: 7/11/2005 9:28 AM   Message 12 of 21 in Discussion
It's always a good idea to replace the umbrella valves when you R and R a rocker box.  It's a poor design that tries to eliminate oil droplets from the air stream.  The "Cure" is a good investment, but I'm not sure that the "plus" is worth the extra penny - though I haven't tried the "plus" version.  On the rocker gasket giving up the ghost, it could be a warped rocker tier.  I had a rear (centre) rocker that warped and within about 150 miles it would shift over to the left and blow oil all over.  Eventually the only permanent fix for me was to replace the whole rocker set.  However, the rocker gasket is very soft and if you pinch it or over torque it - the gasket will split.  Using an X-pattern when tightening the rocker will help avoid excessive tight spots.  John S,
    

From: JAMESP1232 Sent: 7/11/2005 11:26 AM   Message 13 of 21 in Discussion
Classic, use a piece of glass and a feeler guage to chech the rocker box sections where you can. It is easier to see what is happening on glass than opaque flat surfaces.....


From: sevenlivesleft Sent: 7/11/2005 12:19 PM   Message 14 of 21 in Discussion
I should tell,that I had the cure installed in my rocker boxes @
1200 miles with no problems and it did help a lot. 


From: Spectre5555 Sent: 7/11/2005 12:43 PM   Message 15 of 21 in Discussion
Also, make sure all hardware is torqued to the proper spec as per the factory service manual.  Improper torque can warp covers and cause leaks.  Stay away from HD gaskets, too.  Use James or Cometic gasket sets.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 7/11/2005 1:13 PM    Message 16 of 21 in Discussion
Wow you guys are hangin in there with me....Gawd....I know my initial post was a killer for volume....it has to do with the rawness of the situation.....you know which detail will help someone to perhaps better identify my problem......

Thank you for the continued input....it's greatly appreciated.....The ideas on checking the warping are excellent one.....and so was the glass...and how to do it....Thanks John for the input on the preceived value of the "vent plus" option from Cure.  I am going to be talking with the 'inventor' of the cure product here shortly.....so I hope to gain some other insight....

Another question I have......so I take this to an independent mechanic....how do I know what happened....I think I know what happened but why? ? ? ? ?

Am I abusing the bike to run it that hard? ? ? ? ?   Is that something none of you would do with an evo?  or should I expect that bike to run 100 miles an hour.....or am I kidding myself? ? ? ? ?   <~~~I am serious here.....you know I don't need to ride 100 miles an hour but knowing the bike will do it and do it without problems is an entirely different issue.....

Again thank you for any input....? ? ? ? ?

Regards,

"Classic" 
   

From: JAMESP1232 Sent: 7/11/2005 5:53 PM   Message 17 of 21 in Discussion
You have every right to expect that bike to run 100 mph. When you have a better cam installed it will run there easier. You have the breather, youre getting a cam, I dont know about pipes, but with a better flowing (than stock) set, 115 mph should be doable. I dont love speed near as much as I did in my younger days, but every now and then I forget that I dont and feel the need......
   

From: Spectre5555 Sent: 7/12/2005 6:52 AM   Message 18 of 21 in Discussion
You might want to make sure the breather gear is timed right.  If it's not, that would create excess crankcase pressure, which in turn can cause blown gaskets.
 

From: sevenlivesleft Sent: 7/12/2005 8:02 AM   Message 19 of 21 in Discussion
It should go 105+ with K&N ,pipes.I  have a Cam and some compression and went 110 with shild on and still pulling but I don't like to go over 80,getten old and don't feel its safe.   


From: JohnS_Rosamond_CA Sent: 7/12/2005 9:30 AM   Message 20 of 21 in Discussion
Well, you should be able to ride the bike at 100 mph and expect it not to have any kind of part failure.  But I have one caveat.  The evolution oil pump does not do a terribly good job of returning oil to the oil tank at high speed.  This is part of the reason that head breathers can sometimes spit rather badly from the breather (bottom breathers too - but is often less noticeable).  So, although you shouldn't have any gasket failures, at 100 mph you might end up with a little more liquid oil in the breather system than you usually do while cruising at 70 mph.  Also, if you don't keep your breather system clear, you could build up some positive pressure in the crank case that "could" be hard on the gaskets.  I have seen bikes where the open element filter at the end of the breather hose was so caked with oil that it really wasn't venting anymore - they'd been better off leaving the hose open.  John S,

   

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 7/13/2005 12:41 AM   Message 21 of 21 in Discussionif you don't keep your breather system clear, you could build up some positive pressure in the crank case that "could" be hard on the gaskets.

The "breather system"? ? ?

I am venting with a hose that runs from the breather area down along the push rods and along the bottom of my frame with nothing on the end of the hose....

So what do you else do you mean by keeping the "breather system" clear....is there something else to do as well?

Thanks John.....

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

Anything added beyond this point is new information.

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

Attached Below Is A Follow Up To The Above "THREAD" Talking About Particular Options For My 1999 FXR2 EVO Gaskets Which Were Complied, SIMPLY PLACE YOUR CURSOR OVER THE "http" link / address" BELOW, CLICK, VIEW, & READ:

JAMES GASKETS THREE THUMBS UP
http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=2268.msg20067#msg20067

Regards,

"Classic"