REPRINT FROM OLD HTT: EVO PRIMARY TRANNY SHAFT SEAL REPLACEMENT

[ClassicRider2002]

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS A REPRINT TOPIC FROM "OLD" HTT

I have saved many great topical discussions as "links" over the years and would hate to see these lost, so I am reprinting this TOPIC here, which may "perhaps" help some.

TOPIC:  EVO PRIMARY TRANNY SHAFT SEAL REPLACEMENT  09-21-06


From: Rio-Dude  (Original Message) Sent: 9/21/2006 8:34 AM   Message 1 of 18 in Discussion
I'm losing primary fluid by the rear pulley. I assume it is the seal in the primary case that the tranny shaft passes through? The service manual for my bike ('95 FXDWG) is sketchy at best for inner primary removal. A couple of questions:

1. Do I need any special tools beyond a clutch spring compressor?
2. What should I use to hold the jackshaft when removing the jackshaft bolt?
3. Is it really necessary to remove the starter?
4. I might as well replace the engine crank seal and the jackshaft seal while I'm in there. Anything else?
5. Tip or suggestions are welcome!

[ClassicRider2002]

From: 84fxr89flht Sent: 9/21/2006 8:49 AM   Message 2 of 18 in Discussion
You'll need a breaker Bar and the proper sized Socket to remove the Compensator Nut. ( I use a piece of Oak cut to size to Jam the primary chain for removal, works well and is cheap.)

I use a pair of Channel Locks to hold the Jack Shaft when removing the bolt.  The Bolt is not under a lot of torque so marring the jackshaft has not been an issue.

Removing the Starter just lets you get the inner primary off and allows you to line the inner primary back up to the tranny and Engine.  It's just a couple of bolts and is easy compared to some of the other steps involved.

In addition to what you mentioned, I replace all the seals that are in the inner primary.  You should replace the quad seal that is behind the main tranny seal as well.  It is cheap insurance. Also well as the outer primary gasket should be replaced

Everybody has their own methods. I have had very good results using Hondabond on the sectione of the inner primary that face the tranny and engine where the bolt holes are to prevent leaks.

Additional items to check, use a torque wrench, apply just a drop or two of red loctite to the compensator nut when reinstalling. Relace all inner primary bolt's lockwashers when reassembling.  Check the inner shift linkage arm that attaches to the tranny when the inner primary is removed. If it is loose, replace it and use redloctite on the splines of the new arm and the bolt that pinches it down.


From: Fuzznut5197 Sent: 9/21/2006 10:15 AM   Message 3 of 18 in Discussion
>You should replace the quad seal that is behind the main tranny seal as well
If you can acquire the "special tool" for it. It cost me $80-something for it from Georges Garage...


From: rdkng Sent: 9/21/2006 10:49 AM   Message 4 of 18 in Discussion
Check the other thread.. 'mainseal leaking from 9/18'..  Fuzz provides a helpful PDF update on the new seal. 

If you dont pull the pulley, then you dont need any special tools.  The comp nut is 1 1/2 inches and the clutch left handed nut is 1 3/16th.   both are under a bunch of torque..    The clutch comes off as an entire unit.

The seals are very easy to mess up.  be sure to oil them and put tape on the splines of the trans shaft as it will absolutely slice up the new seal.  dont forget a new O ring for case to motor.  I use black RTV silicone on the bolts.     

good luck
rdkng


From: luteslinger Sent: 9/21/2006 12:33 PM   Message 5 of 18 in Discussion
1. Do I need any special tools beyond a clutch spring compressor?
You do not uncompress the clutch-you remove it with a heavy duty impact.

2. What should I use to hold the jackshaft when removing the jackshaft bolt?
Nothing.

3. Is it really necessary to remove the starter?
Yes

4. I might as well replace the engine crank seal and the jackshaft seal while I'm in there. Anything else?
Replace all seals.

5. Tip or suggestions are welcome!
To press in seals in the inner and outer primary covers, simply size up and use  sockets from your tool chest and use them to tap them in. Also, you may as well add the new HD primary chain tensioner while your at it.  You can use an impact wrench on the compensating sprocket and clutch shell basket nuts, but you really shouldn't have to if you have a longer "cheater" bar, just make sure if this is the route you are going that you infact don't slip off the nut when doing the procedure.

If you end up needing to remove the Transmission Pulley/Sprocket and must remove the 1 7/8" Nut, you will need a deep well socket with the supporting "donut" to keep the deep well socket off of the shaft,

HD Part#:94137-09       Mainshaft Sprocket Socket 1 7/8"  Retails For $149.95

and if you aren't going to use an impact wrench then you will need another tool or way to lock down the transmission pulley/sprocket from moving for breaking the NUT as well as putting it back on.  That 1 7/8" NUT gets basically torqued to 150 lbs with red loc tite so you using an impact wrench to take it off would work as well as lightly replying it back on with it as well, if you know what you are doing, thus removing the need to HAVE to have the additional locking device for the transmission pulley from rotating while attempting to secure it back on.



From: xlfxfl Sent: 9/21/2006 3:25 PM   Message 6 of 18 in Discussion
Don't 'remove' the starter.  Just back out the two mounting bolts from the inner primary and leave em hangin' in the starter........

[ClassicRider2002]

From: Rio-Dude Sent: 9/22/2006 8:46 AM   Message 7 of 18 in Discussion
Great info guys. I'm confused about the "quad seal". Is there more than one seal in the inner primary for the tranny shaft?


From: 113EVO1 Sent: 9/22/2006 1:39 PM   Message 8 of 18 in Discussion    
Rio-Dude,
if you remove the rear belt pulley, there is a spacer behind it that slides over the splines on the fifth main gear... the Quad Seal is installed, then the spacer, then the pulley.  I've attatched a photo and put a red line where the Quad Seal goes.
   

From: Rio-Dude Sent: 9/22/2006 3:06 PM   Message 9 of 18 in Discussion
113EVO,
Thanks for the clarification. I concur, might as well swap that puppy out while everything is apart. I REALLY appreciate everyones help!


From: Tynkerman Sent: 9/22/2006 5:00 PM   Message 10 of 18 in Discussion
Excellent example of how the wealth of experience on this site comes together to help out a fellow rider.  Very cool,
Tinkerman


From: Rio-Dude Sent: 10/2/2006 6:19 PM   Message 11 of 18 in Discussion
Gentlemen,

After closer inspection of my leak I believe it is tranny fluid and not primary fluid. Once I tear into this thing, I want to make sure I have the necessary tools and parts. Man I hate running out for tools or parts in the middle of a job. Please review and comment on my list:

Tools:
1 1/2" socket for compensator nut
1 3/16" socket for main shaft nut
breaker bar with pipe extension
chain/sprocket jamming aparatus
Torque wrench
It appears that I need a special deep socket to loosen the transmission pulley nut? (is that what fuzznut5197 was talking about above?). Wheres the best/cheapest place to get the socket?

UPDATE 04-29-12:

The deep well big socket that is mentioned above is actually this:
HD Part#:94137-09  Mainshaft Sprocket Socket 1 7/8"  Retails For $149.95

Parts:
Starter shaft seal
UPDATE:  04-29-2012
Actually A Double Lip Seal Is Better For The Shifter Shaft Seal That Was Mentioned Above As Leaking:

SKF 4260      Double Lip Seal  Shifter Shaft Seal     
472810         Federal Mogul Double Lip Seal 
                    Timken has purchased Federal Mogul so the Federal Mogul Seal Is Now Packaged Under Timken
Listed above are two very good options for Double Lip Seals which replace the OEM HD single lip seal, which always have a propensity to fail.

To pull the failed Shifter Shaft Seal simply drill two small pilot holes and screw in two small wood screws and then use your fingers to pull out the old Shifter Shaft Seal by grabbing and gently rocking out of the location.  Make sure when you install the new one that you use a small amount of grease around the outside of the seal to push it back in while using an appropriately sized socket....it will go in fairly easy.

Inner primary tranny shaft seal
engine-to-primary o-ring
outer primary gasket
quad seal
primary locking tabs
sealer for bolts
tranny fluid
primary fluid

Am I missing anything?

[ClassicRider2002]

From: Bikerjim481 Sent: 9/6/2007 12:04 AM   Message 12 of 18 in Discussion
Rio,
If it is the tranny main output seal then you only need to pull the clutch basket and compensator to get to that. You will need a small seal puller to get that seal out. Get at least two new seals when you replace it because invariably the first one never goes in right the first time and you mess it up so for the extra couple of bucks it's good to have the extra one on hand then you won't need it. LOL
Also I would not recommend the HD auto primary chain tensioners. They are POS's and can ratchet up and put way to much tension on the chain to where you could play a tune on it from being so tight.
If you do go with an auto adjuster then think about the HB-125 or the Hayden M-6. they are time tested and proven and both work very well.
The HB-125 is a hydrolically activated unit while the M-6 is a much simpler spring loaded affair. I like the HB-125 as it is much easier to install and just a better unit, IMHO. Spidey.
 

From: olstoney2 [Buddy WMC]Sent: 9/6/2007 6:30 AM   Message 13 of 18 in Discussion
Riodude,
Thanks for this link and I'll stay on this one. Think I'll try and tackle this repair myself. As my pulley need to be replaced, what size socket and type of socket will I need for that? Thanks...


From: 84BikerDude Sent: 9/9/2007 10:00 AM   Message 14 of 18 in Discussion
Tinkerman,
At this point as I'm tearing up a my lip is quivering I gotta say.....I love you guys!  You just make me wanna cry.  HA HA HA
I agree a thousand percent in your statement I just hadda say that.


From: madmangil Sent: 9/9/2007 7:35 PM   Message 15 of 18 in Discussion
Rio,
"After closer inspection of my leak I believe it is tranny fluid and not primary fluid"

Sounds like you may not be 100% sure. I removed my transmission today for a similar leak which led to a transmission rebuild so you are going through what I am going through. If you want to be sure of what is leaking before opening things up here is what I did....
1) I thought that it was the primary so I drained the primary and replaced the fluid with red ATF. It leaked brown so it was not the primary.
2) I removed the ATF from the primary and replaced it with the original fluid.
3) I drained the transmission and replaced the fluid with red ATF. It leaked red so I new that the leak was the transmission.

...then I started opening things up
   

From: JakeSabre1 Sent: 9/9/2007 9:16 PM   Message 16 of 18 in Discussion
I am pulling my primary case in the morning, lotsa good info here, can't find fuzznuts PDF post though, thanks to 84fxr89flht for the oak tip, I will use a piece of rock maple.  Also, his tip on HondaBond, I second that, will be using some tomorrow.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: JakeSabre1 Sent: 9/10/2007 10:06 PM   Message 17 of 18 in Discussion
Rio-Dude, did you replace your quad seal?  If so, did you work it into a groove with a screwdriver or did you just slip it over the shaft and then install the spacer?


From: Rio-Dude Sent: 9/11/2007 10:42 AM   Message 18 of 18 in Discussion
You betcha I replaced the quad. Its been a while but I think I just worked it in with a screwdriver. A bright flashlight and magnifying glass help ensure that it is seated properly.

Did you pull that race off the tranny mainshaft and replace the seal behind it? You might as well while you are in there. The seal is kinda tricky to remove (I used some dentist tools) and fabbed up a drift out of PVC pipe to tap the new seal squarely back on.

[ClassicRider2002]

Anything added beyond this point is new information.

Regards,

"Classic"