REPRINT FROM OLD HTT: OUTER PRIMARY GASKET & #27 TORX ISSUES

[ClassicRider2002]

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DISCLAIMER: THIS IS A REPRINT TOPIC FROM "OLD" HTT

I have saved many great topical discussions as "links" over the years and would hate to see these lost, so I am reprinting this TOPIC here, which may "perhaps" help some.

TOPIC:  OUTER PRIMARY GASKET & #27 TORX ISSUES  09-26-02

From: Shit4Brains  (Original Message) Sent: 9/26/2002 3:20 PM   Message 1 of 15 in Discussion
I am changing out my major fluids and am wondering about gaskets. I have HD's gaskets in there now, and the primary chain cover is starting to leak (or sweat fluid as I heard HD service guy say). So is there a better gasket's at the parts store? And do I put on a gasket sealer too? I will be torqueing the torx. Hate those fuken things (torx).

[ClassicRider2002]

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From: AlphaSamuel Sent: 9/26/2002 4:46 PM   Message 2 of 5 in Discussion
Many times when the primary gaskets start to leak, seep, weep or what ever, it is due to over filling.  My self I drain the fluid, measure the correct amount and then pour it in to the case.  To check by eyeing the level the ride must be level with the wheels on the ground, which is difficult to do when changing the fluids solo. 

As for the gaskets.  I like James gaskets better than the HD ones.  But they are close to being the same nowdays.  I like to put a thin layer of aviation gasket cement on the inner primary gasket surface, then install 4 1/4 " studs that I have made from 3" bolts w/the heads cut off, then place the gasket over the studs that are mounted one to each corner, then apply a thin layer of gasket cement to the outer primary gasket surface, then install the outer primary over the studs.  Then place a dab of cement on each bolt and install.  Then I remove the 4 studs and install those bolts using a dab of cement to each as well.  Then I torque the bolts per the manual.  Using the foregoing I have never had a gasket leak, weep, or seep.  And the fasteners will come right out and never gaul the threads, even when left in for a prolonged period of time.  Using this method I have never had a bolt back out, nor have I ever had to use an impact wrench on any of them.    If you use a little too much gasket cement it cleans up with a dab of paint thinner or mineral spirits on a rag.    Works for me!  Samuel 
 

From: Shit4Brains Sent: 9/27/2002 9:53 AM   Message 3 of 5 in Discussion
Thanks Samuel.

All the service to my ride thus far has been done at the "dealer"s. I have checked the levels and they seemed find. But I don't think they went to the extreem of what you do to insure correct replacement and fix is perm. They want return buss. But I will follow your steps to insure it is only done once correctly. Thanks. Guess I need some aviation stuff now. Dam, you need just about every F-en thing to get your ride up to par. Any NASA tools needed for the next fix? ? ? ?


From: Freespirit Sent: 10/1/2002 10:12 AM   Message 4 of 5 in Discussion
Samuel,

Excellent tip on using the 4 long bolts as locators. 

I used gasket cement on the primary cover once and had a bitch of a time removing it later on for subsequent work. Had to hit it with a rubber mallet, put a foot on each axle, and pull til I was blue in the face. Kinda scared to use it again. Do you have any trick for removing the covers?

My edit:
I notice this Poster mentions using "gasket cement" and him having a hard time removing it, but if you look closely he is not describing "Aviation Gasket Ceement" because what he is describing is NOT a characteristic of the "Permatex Product, it does NOT harden like a "Cement" and it's easy to clean up with mineral spirits, or contact cleaner.

Getting ready to install Cometic primary gaskets on my two bikes and was thinking of using Permatex Hylomar instead of gasket cement. Ever tried using Hylomar before? It is tacky stuff that doesn't cure like a cement. I've used it in other bolted joints and it seems to work sweet.
     
From: HIPPO_ Sent: 1/4/2003 7:11 PM   Message 5 of 5 in Discussion
The Cometic metal gaskets are much better then the HD ones.  Use them dry.  If the surfaces are uneven enough for these gaskets to leak you need either a new primary or cover.  
   

From: augie  (Original Message) Sent: 8/18/2002 12:20 AM   Message 1 of 7 in Discussion
I own a 2000 road king with almost 30k miles on it and just this weekend I decided to do the service myself. I have a good mechanic who's looked after it since new, but i just wanted to do the service myself. Well i can't believe how MOTHERF**KING difficult it is to loosen the torx 27 screws on the derby cover. Just to be on the safe side I took off the inner primary cover and have all but one of five screws still on. Of course I've stripped the little F**kers and had to drill and easy out the other four off. I doubt if my machanic ever had the derby cover off. Has anyone had a similar experience? I don't know how many drill bits I've gone thru!!


From: Rustler Sent: 8/18/2002 5:52 AM   Message 2 of 7 in Discussion
Been there - I replace mine with 1/4x20 button head cap screws - they look just like the torx but have an allen recess instead of the torx


From: augie Sent: 8/19/2002 1:55 AM   Message 3 of 7 in Discussion
thanks for the tips fellas. Got the last little motherf**cker out this morning. thank god i didn't f**k up my cover. Went staright over to the local Harley dealer and replaced the torx with allen button head screws and I didn't over torque them or use locite. Runs fine and no seepage. later
   

From: Freespirit Sent: 8/20/2002 5:14 PM    Message 4 of 7 in Discussion
Augie,
Same shyte happened to me with the derby screws. Broke two easy-outs trying to get them out. Finally had to grind the heads off. What a pisser. Woulda killed someone if they were nearby. I think this happens because they use steel screws into an aluminum primary cover. Galvanic corrossion happens and the screws "rust in". Use chrome allen head screws. Put some Permatex anti-sieze on them before installing if you haven't already done the job. 
   

From: truckerdave Sent: 8/20/2002 5:55 PM   Message 5 of 7 in Discussion
Yep, same here. Ol ladys 2002 sportster. Took them off  a week after we bought it to replace clutch cable for new bars. Few months later they won't come out. No loctite or overtorqueing. I'll cut slots in them and pop them off with impact driver eventually and replace with stainless allen cap screws. I also saw the handwriting on the wall and replaced all the other torx screws i could find on it with stainless.

   
From: Unholy"dealer" Sent: 9/1/2002 6:04 PM   Message 6 of 7 in Discussion
I work as a H-D tech and and I remove /install hundreds of the torx heads every week. They are not the problem. However , if you live in a humid climate, a little anti seize on the threads would be a good idea because a little corrosion will make them tight. The real problem is a lack of proper tools 


From: AlphaSamuel Sent: 9/2/2002 10:46 AM   Message 7 of 7 in Discussion
On ALL iron bolts, of any type, installed into aluminum housings I always use aviation gasket cement to prevent the iron from annealing to the aluminum.  You will find they come out, even if left for months, w/o using an impact wrench, or other tools.  It also acts, as a sealer, as a loctite, as well as an isulator.  Samuel 


From: phu cat  (Original Message) Sent: 11/26/2003 8:45 AM   Message 1 of 5 in Discussion
When I use lok-tite, I only put a drop or two at the end of the bolt.  Is this the way to use aviation gasket cement or do ya cover the length of the fastener with it?  Will it keep a bolt from loosening?  Phu Cat
   

From: AlphaSamuel Sent: 11/26/2003 9:48 AM   Message 2 of 5 in Discussion
PhuCat it is an excellent low grade "loctite".  But it never gets real hard.  I just take the bolt and place a dab on one side and then thread it into place.   When you go to remove it you will see that that dab has now coated the entire thread area. 

When used in areas where the bolt protrudes into either an oil gallery or a water gallery it is also an excellent sealer.  On bikes it does an excellent job of sealing the stator bolts, as these are drilled through the case allowing engine oil to get into the primary.  Although the factory stator bolts come with a sealer/loctite on them, I, when necessary, have reused the origional bolts with great success by merely apoplying a dab on each bolt.  I have yet to have one leak or fail.  Samuel


From: phu cat Sent: 11/26/2003 7:01 PM   Message 3 of 5 in Discussion
If I got the right stuff, for those still lookin for it, it's made by Permatex, & it's item # 80017.  I went to about a half dozen auto parts stores before finding a 16 OZ bottle of this stuff.  It is probably enough to last me, my son, and his son.  I know I'm sick, I buy stuff cuz i MIGHT need it.  But, as many times as Samuel has recommended it, here's bettin it'll get plenty of use.  BTW, Skin, is this what ya used to hold the cylinder base gaskets in place?  Phu Cat


From: MikeL Sent: 11/28/2003 7:00 AM   Message 4 of 5 in Discussion
There are 2 types. Aviation #1 and aviation #2. #1 is the bottle and brush and #2 is in a tube. We use the #1 for gasket surfaces. It hardens up and is easily digested in an engine lube system. #2 we used to coat bolt threads. Both these sealants need air to dry. They don't take high temps well. I used these sealants for years sealing(or trying too)Detroit Diesel engines. The new anerobic(lack of air gasket eliminater) sealers are much better. There very good at sealing bolt threads and can take higher temps. Has the consistancey of grape jelly will never harden in open air. I have found this type works the best for threaded holes. It's digestable in lube systems.  MIKE


From: Sevad Sent: 11/27/2003 6:52 AM    Message 5 of 5 in Discussion 
Can't find the aviation cement in my area. Is hylomar as good (base gaskets)?      Thanks         

[ClassicRider2002]

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Permatex® Aviation Form-A-Gasket® No. 3 Sealant  <~~~~CLICK, VIEW, & READ

Regards,

"Classic"

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[ClassicRider2002]

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Anything added beyond this point is new information.

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

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Well....

I thought I should add some reflections to these posts that were done so long ago. 

First of all, I have used the technique described by Samuel above with regards to using the 4  1/4" x 3" long bolts with the heads cut off to use when placing the outer primary gasket over the studs that are mounted one to each corner, then apply a thin layer of gasket cement to the outer primary gasket surface, then installthe outer primary over the studs.  Then place a dab of cement on each bolt and install.  Then I remove the 4 studs and install those bolts using a dab of cement to each as well.  Then I torque the bolts per the manual.  Using the foregoing I have never had a gasket leak, weep, or seep.  And the fasteners will come right out and never gaul the threads, even when left in for a prolonged period of time.  Using this method I have never had a bolt back out, nor have I ever had to use an impact wrench on any of them.    If you use a little too much gasket cement it cleans up with a dab of paint thinner or mineral spirits on a rag.  

It works exactly as he has described perfectly!!!!!!!

I would also like to share that as we are now in 2008 and close to 2009 that the HD OEM GASKETS for use on the Outer Primary is quite acceptable.....especially with the above technique....I know that HIPPO stated that one should never need to use such an adhesive....but I have had absolutely postive results with suggestions by Samuel above.  I find myself using the Aviation Gasket Cement whenever blue loc tite is called for.  I like the product much better and it's easy to work with and easy to clean up as well.

I do use a dremmel tool with a wire brush to clean my bolts after removal before reusing them.....it only takes a few minutes to clean the bolts with some cleaner and the dremmel tool....

Through out the years of reading here on HTT I have come across several threads that I feel address the subject of "loctite" or gasket sealants, ie: when to use, what to use....etc....

For the past 4 years I have been using the Permatex Aviation Gasket Cement on my outer primary gasket, bolts, fasteners,and anything that calls for a "blue" loctite type of sealant....I stick to the red for proper applications....and a couple of years ago I had to address an evo rocker base gasket leak and at that time I used HYLOMAR HPF Item#25249 and Napa parts # 765-2682, which worked perfectly in that application, however as we are all aware HYLOMAR has actually been discontinued and while there is still some of it out there in the market place each year it will become less and less available.......and as this becomes more and more apparent I wouldn't hesitate in now using the Aviation Gasket Cement in such an application as well.....Actually Samuel is the one that really informed me about it through reading his posts on the matter...he even mentions in the first thread way back in 2002 about using it on EVO base Gaskets with success...I really LIKE THE PRODUCT....it does what Samuel throughout these posts stated it would do...and now it's sort of a "nostalgia" thing for me...He was always so definitive in his opinions.........

I have a buddy that has finally seen the "light" after watching me use this with success and this spring purchased a bottle and he likes it too...I like it MUCH better than "Blue" Loctite.

Regards,

"Classic"

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I have also in the past been curious about when to use RED Loctite #262 vs RED Loctite #271 and was provided this response which I found quite helpful:


From: Puhb1 Sent: 5/19/2008 12:30 PM
The RED Loctite #262 is stronger and medium viscosity and the RED Loctite #271 is low viscosity.
Both are permanent thread lockers.
The RED Loctite #262 is designated for bolts up to 3/4" and the RED Loctite #271 up to 1"

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 5/19/2008 1:07 PM
Puhb1....

thanks for responding but which one would you choose to use....how does "viscosity" affect this particular application if in fact it does...?  Thank you  "Classic"

From: Puhb1 Sent: 5/19/2008 1:52 PM
Just use the RED Loctite #262 for bolts up to 3/4" and the RED Loctite #271 over that. Don't worry about the viscosity.
Clean the bolts well, and use their primer in critical applications.  If you have time use the Vibratite. It sets up on the bolts and then the bolt is ready to use. http://www.threadlockers.com/vibratite.jsp

[guido4198]

Classic makes an EXCELLENT point you don't often see mentioned : ALWAYS clean the bolts you've pulled before re-using them. I take some solvent and a wire brush to every bolt and screw that comes outta The Moonraker. I also "chase" the threads with a proper die, or at least a good nut to make sure everything is clean, and going to go back together without binding, or crossthreading. I don't know if a shop can/will take that kind of time cleaning up fasteners...but I can, and do. Primary gaskets are definitely MUCH improved these days too. I've been able to re-use the same gasket several times, without having to resort to sealers, etc. THAT NEVER used to happen. As far as putting anything on the primary bolts...I've used a dab of clear silicone on each, just like Samuel's application of Aviation cement, to prevent oil weeping through and inhibit movement.