14+ compensator spring preload check

[joe_lyons]

Talked to tech services yesterday and they have a new procedure for noisy comps that some people have ran into.  The complete compensator will need to be removed and as it is assembled sit with the large hex facing down on the table.  The depth from the top spring to the spline adapter is what needs to be measured.  The spec. is .286"-.326".  If it is less than .286" then there are spacers that can be used to add more preloaded.  These spacers are .031" each and I believe a max of two can be used but possibly 3.  The spacer PN is 10300021.

[Just Nick]

Thanks Joe good to know

[rbabos]

Talked to tech services yesterday and they have a new procedure for noisy comps that some people have ran into.  The complete compensator will need to be removed and as it is assembled sit with the large hex facing down on the table.  The depth from the top spring to the spline adapter is what needs to be measured.  The spec. is .286"-.326".  If it is less than .286" then there are spacers that can be used to add more preloaded.  These spacers are .031" each and I believe a max of two can be used but possibly 3.  The spacer PN is 1030021.

These fools do realize that adding material in the form of shims reduces the max travel in the comp right otherwise why have the SE version in the first place? That dimension should be accomplished with the natural arc in the springs, not robbing Peter to pay Paul with filler . Classic MoCo move.
Oh, thanks for that bit of info Joe.
Ron

[Admiral Akbar]

Talked to tech services yesterday and they have a new procedure for noisy comps that some people have ran into.  The complete compensator will need to be removed and as it is assembled sit with the large hex facing down on the table.  The depth from the top spring to the spline adapter is what needs to be measured.  The spec. is .286"-.326".  If it is less than .286" then there are spacers that can be used to add more preloaded.  These spacers are .031" each and I believe a max of two can be used but possibly 3.  The spacer PN is 1030021.

These fools do realize that adding material in the form of shims reduces the max travel in the comp right otherwise why have the SE version in the first place? That dimension should be accomplished with the natural arc in the springs, not robbing Peter to pay Paul with filler . Classic MoCo move.
Oh, thanks for that bit of info Joe.
Ron

Could be but could also just be taking into account the tolerances of for core shift on machined parts.. Like the sprocket and cam? In that case they are trying to get the unit to bottom at the same place and have the same preload..

[rbabos]

Talked to tech services yesterday and they have a new procedure for noisy comps that some people have ran into.  The complete compensator will need to be removed and as it is assembled sit with the large hex facing down on the table.  The depth from the top spring to the spline adapter is what needs to be measured.  The spec. is .286"-.326".  If it is less than .286" then there are spacers that can be used to add more preloaded.  These spacers are .031" each and I believe a max of two can be used but possibly 3.  The spacer PN is 1030021.

These fools do realize that adding material in the form of shims reduces the max travel in the comp right otherwise why have the SE version in the first place? That dimension should be accomplished with the natural arc in the springs, not robbing Peter to pay Paul with filler . Classic MoCo move.
Oh, thanks for that bit of info Joe.
Ron

Could be but could also just be taking into account the tolerances of for core shift on machined parts.. Like the sprocket and cam? In that case they are trying to get the unit to bottom at the same place and have the same preload..

Possible but that brings up another point. What tolerance do these people work at and why not use the contact points of both cam and spokes for reference, to set distance for opposite end machining for a correct stack up of components. That's the purpose of machining is to hold a tolerance.  Not smooth the bitch and hope it ends up close, right? I'm still suspecting disc spring qc is the issue.
Ron

[Buffalo]

HD specs have gone back to the good old days of Flatheads and Knuckles, maybe AMF, didn't you know that?? Engine and attached parts with almost every part different. Sloppy tolerances either built in or deliberately ignored, but "they\re all like that attitude" allows the shoddy  workmanship and assembled by bolt drivers (not engine builders). The fact that several 1000's of them work ok is a mystery to me!
And all on non rebuildable (according to HD) throwaway parts. 
Harley lives on and feeds off the buyers, knowing that most have no idea or care where the sparkplugs are.These are the real $$ makers for HD, swallowing the hype and literature while blindly accepting anything the HD shops tell them. 7 Years of failed compensators proves that point. All to protect a marshmellow crankshaft made from even poorer quality castings to make more $$.
It doesn't surprise me that .030 shims might be required due to building tolerances! 
I certainly don't understand the machining tolerance problems, any remotely modern cnc machine will keep .0001 or better on parts. A company I worked for replaced a 15 yr old Mazak cnc that would not hold .001 any longer, even tho they built commercial dishwashers, they demanded better accuracy!
I'll keep my 01 Dyna with an S&S engine.  fwiw  Buffalo

[BVHOG]

Great info Joe and you didn't even have to quiz us to what we were looking at before giving us the info

[rbabos]

HD specs have gone back to the good old days of Flatheads and Knuckles, maybe AMF, didn't you know that?? Engine and attached parts with almost every part different. Sloppy tolerances either built in or deliberately ignored, but "they\re all like that attitude" allows the shoddy  workmanship and assembled by bolt drivers (not engine builders). The fact that several 1000's of them work ok is a mystery to me!
And all on non rebuildable (according to HD) throwaway parts. 
Harley lives on and feeds off the buyers, knowing that most have no idea or care where the sparkplugs are.These are the real $$ makers for HD, swallowing the hype and literature while blindly accepting anything the HD shops tell them. 7 Years of failed compensators proves that point. All to protect a marshmellow crankshaft made from even poorer quality castings to make more $$.
It doesn't surprise me that .030 shims might be required due to building tolerances! 
I certainly don't understand the machining tolerance problems, any remotely modern cnc machine will keep .0001 or better on parts. A company I worked for replaced a 15 yr old Mazak cnc that would not hold .001 any longer, even tho they built commercial dishwashers, they demanded better accuracy!
I'll keep my 01 Dyna with an S&S engine.  fwiw  Buffalo

Never mind that 8 year run of design incompetence of compensator shame. This shim deal is just another example. First version had the shims, then they removed them, likely adding length to the end of the cam to eliminate them or so we thought. So here we are again with measuring and possibly adding them back to once again make up for a dimensional preload mistake. Wonder how many actually fall within their claimed spec which technically is the wrong way to measure anyway. True preload needs to be done with an indicator on the end of the comp hex from 0 lash bolt head contact to stack bottoming. That encompasses all related components that get torqued from crank spacer on out. I smell shim sales going up. Let's face it, had they left the shims in in the first place, nobody would have noticed a higher preload then needed. Noise tends to allert the owner more than a slight increase in pulse. Also explains why some are quieter then others out of the box with the current A version.
Ron

[kcbike]

Joe, thanks for the info. To all the others who seem to know all of Harleys engineering problems. Maybe you could design a better compensator. We would appreciate that.

[rbabos]

Joe, thanks for the info. To all the others who seem to know all of Harleys engineering problems. Maybe you could design a better compensator. We would appreciate that.

Current comp is fine and function wise it would be damn difficult to design a better one to cover both smooth cruise feel and high torque pulse protection of the crank. It needs better QC and better oiling. The best oiling enhancement to the OEM is already available. The qc part is up to the company, however with Joe's post the owner now has a better reference to control his install to be more correct. How accurate those dimensions are, is still to be determined but it's something to go by.
Ron

[PoorUB]

What is the repair if the spring stack up is under the limit, with shims? Replace all the springs?

[rbabos]

What is the repair if the spring stack up is under the limit, with shims? Replace all the springs?

Springs seldom get weak on that comp. Your friendly HD dealer should or can get the shim(s) to give the correct preload.
Ron

[PoorUB]

What is the repair if the spring stack up is under the limit, with shims? Replace all the springs?

Springs seldom get weak on that comp. Your friendly HD dealer should or can get the shim(s) to give the correct preload.
Ron

I have two shims in it already, and measuring with shims it measures .265". One more would get it into the middle of the spec, not good enough IMO. Four shims??

Here are pics of the cam and sprocket. These parts have roughly 12,000 miles on them. I have the OEM oil scoop glued in place with JB Weld and it is still in place. The compensator spokes and cam is in great shape so the oil scoop appears to be doing it's job.

I am going to pick up a new spring set and bolt and see where I end up. This compensator was quiet when it was first put in and with so little wear I am thinking the springs are weak.

[rageglide]

wow P'UB that looks damn good.

kcbike.  No disrespect, but, do you know what Cost Engineering is?  HD spends a ton of money purely with the goal of saving money.  This comp design is their 3rd effort to save money because of the cheapo crank design.    HD banks on small percentage of people putting lots of miles on these bikes.  2yrs of warranty and most people barely put 3k miles a year, and that's generous.  If the cranks cant' make it 2 yrs the problem is on the owner, not HD.  If the customer buys ESP because they're concerned the bike will need it...  It's ridiculous.  If GM, Ford, Dodge, Toyata, Honda had this kind of MTBTF that HD does, heads would roll and you'd see a class action lawsuit.   It's really quite absurd.  But hey, most of HDs core market is ready for a 3 wheeler or a wheel chair...  I don't think the SOA wannabees are gonna carry this company long term.

Just my corporation polluted opinion.  :-(

[PoorUB]

I picked up a couple more shims today. I might be crazy, but I have a total of four shims in the spring pack. That brought the stack up right to the top end of the measurement Joe posted, .326". It did quiet down the compensator.

After looking at it again I wonder what would happen if one were to remove the one light spring, shim up the difference and run only the four heavier springs? I find it hard to believe the smaller spring is even doing any thing at this point. I also measured the thickness of all the springs, and the hub of the compensator and if they were all collapsed there was roughly .490" of travel.

[FSG]

How well does the small spring fit to the back of the sliding cam?

Is the full 360 degs of the back of the cam perpendicular to the bore?

[PoorUB]

How well does the small spring fit to the back of the sliding cam?

Is the full 360 degs of the back of the cam perpendicular to the bore?

The cam is completely flat on the back side. I was thinking with a bunch of preload on the springs the lighter spring is close to completely compressed.

[FSG]

If it's flattened then it's nothing but a spacer so there'd be no harm done replacing it with shims.

[rbabos]

Removing it completely will add a touch of harshness to the ride in light load. Not earth shattering but noticable. It's best to keep it in there and shim for correct preload.  Needing 4 shims, those springs or something is seriously wrong there and correct operation of the comp has already been compromised with reduced travel. Sounding like there's a spring qc issue that wasn't there in the 08 versions.
Ron

[PoorUB]

Removing it completely will add a touch of harshness to the ride in light load. Not earth shattering but noticable. It's best to keep it in there and shim for correct preload.  Needing 4 shims, those springs or something is seriously wrong there and correct operation of the comp has already been compromised with reduced travel. Sounding like there's a spring qc issue that wasn't there in the 08 versions.
Ron

Wadwa mean QC issues?! You do know HD bought the springs from the lowest overseas bidder!

Do you think that small spring is even doing anything with .326" preload? I did not measure the height of that spring, but it can not be much more than that and as stiff as the other four springs are they sure are not moving very far until the little one gives up.

[rbabos]

Removing it completely will add a touch of harshness to the ride in light load. Not earth shattering but noticable. It's best to keep it in there and shim for correct preload.  Needing 4 shims, those springs or something is seriously wrong there and correct operation of the comp has already been compromised with reduced travel. Sounding like there's a spring qc issue that wasn't there in the 08 versions.
Ron

Wadwa mean QC issues?! You do know HD bought the springs from the lowest overseas bidder!

Do you think that small spring is even doing anything with .326" preload? I did not measure the height of that spring, but it can not be much more than that and as stiff as the other four springs are they sure are not moving very far until the little one gives up.

If you have .326 preload you no longer have a useful working comp. It should be in the order of .090-.125. The small spring will be about 70% +/- compressed at that point and still effective. Back in the day we measured spring stacks with many miles on them and compared to new. No meaningfull difference between the two. This was near the end of the 08a runs.  I fully understand MoCo greed on saving a buck at the cost of quality and likely this is what's causing this round of shim bs that should not be required in the first place. Bulletin does not include all components to do an actual real preload check. Only a spring check. Example, say you have .060 wear on the spokes, what happens to the total?
Ron

[PoorUB]

Joe Lyon's post give .326 as the max stack measurement, maybe we are talking two different things, or two different ways of measuring. Read Joe's post, that is how I measured it.

I measured each springs and shim thickness, plus the length splined hub and hub on the rotor, and subtracting the total of the two measurements I had about .490" before the spring would be completely collapsed. Pretty sure I am good to go. I have put about 100 miles on today doing tuning runs and it seems to be working well.

[rbabos]

Joe Lyon's post give .326 as the max stack measurement, maybe we are talking two different things, or two different ways of measuring. Read Joe's post, that is how I measured it.

I measured each springs and shim thickness, plus the length splined hub and hub on the rotor, and subtracting the total of the two measurements I had about .490" before the spring would be completely collapsed. Pretty sure I am good to go. I have put about 100 miles on today doing tuning runs and it seems to be working well.

Two different ways.
Ron

[Unbalanced]

Thanks for the info on this.  On my 4th compensator last 3 have been the latest models.   Today they installed 3 shims in mine.  I was at the very minimum of the spec quoted above and had 2 shims in there.  They put a 3rd shim in still and have just a little noise at .317, but not like it was before, figured it couldn't make it worse than it was.   

Going to ride it a bit with the small amount of noise and see what happens.  Interested in seeing how the well the Baker fix works or a possible comparison of the compusaver vs. the baker as  choices to resolve the issue.

[MarcV125]

if you look at the new directions for the Se comp it now looks like it comes with two of those washers and they want you to use those right off the bat..
http://www.harley-davidson.com/app-content/service/isheets/-J05674.PDF