2000 Softail diagnosis help, please.

[Ken R]

A lady brought her Softail Deluxe to me to diagnose and fix.  However, the symptoms and steps they took are confusing to me.


Coming home from a 400 mile trip, the motor started running really roughly.  They stopped at a station.  It was running badly and shaking the handlebars.  It's a "B" engine and she's used to it being silky smooth running.   They checked the oil; none on the dipstick.  They bought and added 2 quarts before it came to the "FULL" line.  Motor still ran very roughly and noticeably lacked power. 


She brought it to me.  I suspected compression problems, fouled plug(s), or something like that.  Pulled the plugs; both needed replacement.  Rear looked to have been running rich, but no oil. 
I did a compression test:  135 PSI cranking on both cylinders.  Held the pressure a good long while before dropping through 130 PSI. 


I found the front spark plug wire was chaffed by a screw-type hose clamp end  on the fuel cutoff.  Hmmm, maybe the plug was intermittently shorting out.   Changed plugs, did a spark plug wire resistance test, re-routed the plug wire so it would not touch anything.  Started the engine.  It ran perfectly.  Not running rough, not jiggling or shaking the handlebars.   Maybe I fixed it.   


Last oil and filter change was 5,000 miles previous.  So I was going to do that for her; new filter and oil after warming it up.   
Started the motor while it was on my lift and let it run a while.  Noticed a puddle of oil accumulating under the engine.  It was oozing out of the oil fill hole, stopper still in the hole.  Stopped the engine and checked the oil level.  It was running over the fill hole!  It dribbled out about a pint.  I pulled the plug and captured the rest; almost 4-1/2 quarts came out of it.  The reservoir should hold 3-1/2.  Obviously way over-filled.   


But why?  Why would it prompt them to add 2 quarts to bring the oil level up onto the dipstick?   I asked if they checked it while on the sidestand.  "No, I always check my oil while seated on the motorcycle while it's vertical, not on the sidestand." 


Sumping?  Fluke?    That would be a lot of sumping and I don't think it'd fix itself.   I've run the engine several times this afternoon and the oil level in the reservoir didn't change.  Tomorrow, after the road dry from our rain, I'll take it out and see if I can duplicate the rough running.  But so far, I have not been able to see that symptom. 


Any ideas on why the oil level would go so low  . . .. and then come back?

[Tynker]

I don't think Harley had a "B" engine in 1990, or a Softail Deluxe either.

[hdbikedoc]

must be wrong year no big deal
suspect wire trouble was the fault
customer overfilled must have messed up the oil check test a couple more times and kick it back
compression should not bleed from your gauge once it reaches 135 it should stay there .the hose has a Schrader valve in it to trap compression if it drops could be a bad Schrader valve or its loose

[Ken R]

I don't think Harley had a "B" engine in 1990, or a Softail Deluxe either.

Yeah, wrong year.  But definitely a Softail with a balanced engine. 

[Ken R]

must be wrong year no big deal
suspect wire trouble was the fault
customer overfilled must have messed up the oil check test a couple more times and kick it back
compression should not bleed from your gauge once it reaches 135 it should stay there .the hose has a Schrader valve in it to trap compression if it drops could be a bad Schrader valve or its loose

Thanks.  I haven't checked the schrader on my gauge. 


The motor is running strong (so far as I can tell on the lift table).  Revs up nicely, idles smoothly.  I'm anxious for some dry roads tomorrow so I can take it our.   I sure hope the plug wire was the original culprit.


Ken

[Ed Y]

If this is a 1990 softail it's an Evo. No balanced engine there. Oil should be checked with the bike standing straight up. Again, assuming it's a 1990, oil tank is 3 qt capacity. The missing oil problem sounds like oil is draining from the tank past the oil pump check valve into the lower end but that normally happens when bike is sitting for a while..

Another possible cause of running rough is a head gasket starting to go out.

[Ken R]

If this is a 1990 softail it's an Evo. No balanced engine there. Oil should be checked with the bike standing straight up. Again, assuming it's a 1990, oil tank is 3 qt capacity. The missing oil problem sounds like oil is draining from the tank past the oil pump check valve into the lower end but that normally happens when bike is sitting for a while..

Another possible cause of running rough is a head gasket starting to go out.

Hey, Ed.  How ya doin?  It's been a while.
It's a 2000 Softail, for sure.  Don't know why I said 1990.  Definitely a Twin Cam. 
Seems that if 2 quarts of oil drained into the sump while riding on the highway, it would have caused damage.  I was thinking check valve, anyway; but will need to look in the shop manual to see where it's located.   
I'm anxious to ride the motor tomorrow (if it'll quit raining). 


Ken

[04 SE Deuce]

Just in case you weren't aware,   the valve core in your compression gauge hose it is not a tire valve core.  Need the correct core for compression gauge.  -Rick

[dakota224]

I bet there is problems in the Cam Chest..  Oil Pump going out - Cam Bearings need replacement anyways.

[Admiral Akbar]

Motor should not sump running down the road which is what it seem to be doing... That will cause the oil level in the oil tank to change.  It could have the rear ball bearing in the cam plate, if its the first 1/2 of the 2000 model year. The rear cam bearing can come apart..  Depending on the miles, the oil pump scavenge side possibly ate the cam chain tensioners also and they should be replaced.. It does need to come apart. If everything looks good it may be the scavenge O ring on the crankcase has gotten hard and is sucking air.

[Ken R]

I bet there is problems in the Cam Chest..  Oil Pump going out - Cam Bearings need replacement anyways.

That's a good thought.   She has 130,000 miles on the bike.  The only serious maintenance that's been done on this motor was gear-drive cams and new oil pump at 73,000 miles.  So it has 60K miles on the cams, pump, and cam bearings.  I hate to take it apart when that side of the motor is running so smoothly and quietly. 


Ken

[Ken R]

Motor should not sump running down the road which is what it seem to be doing... That will cause the oil level in the oil tank to change.  It could have the rear ball bearing in the cam plate, if its the first 1/2 of the 2000 model year. The rear cam bearing can come apart..  Depending on the miles, the oil pump scavenge side possibly ate the cam chain tensioners also and they should be replaced.. It does need to come apart. If everything looks good it may be the scavenge O ring on the crankcase has gotten hard and is sucking air.

Would you take the cam chest apart at this point?  With no symptoms showing right now at this time, I'm thinking that I'd like to see  some symptoms for myself before disassembling.


Ken

[rigidthumper]

I bet there is problems in the Cam Chest..  Oil Pump going out - Cam Bearings need replacement anyways.

That's a good thought.   She has 130,000 miles on the bike.  The only serious maintenance that's been done on this motor was gear-drive cams and new oil pump at 73,000 miles. So it has 60K miles on the cams, pump, and cam bearings. I hate to take it apart when that side of the motor is running so smoothly and quietly. 


Ken

I treat inner cam bearings and lifters as maintenance items- replace on a regular basis, as insurance. It's time.

[Admiral Akbar]

Motor should not sump running down the road which is what it seem to be doing... That will cause the oil level in the oil tank to change.  It could have the rear ball bearing in the cam plate, if its the first 1/2 of the 2000 model year. The rear cam bearing can come apart..  Depending on the miles, the oil pump scavenge side possibly ate the cam chain tensioners also and they should be replaced.. It does need to come apart. If everything looks good it may be the scavenge O ring on the crankcase has gotten hard and is sucking air.

Would you take the cam chest apart at this point?  With no symptoms showing right now at this time, I'm thinking that I'd like to see  some symptoms for myself before disassembling.


Ken

It may be worth while to test ride as there could really be 2 issues.. The motor could be sumping while running which seems to be the case or it could have oil flow past the feed side of the pump while sitting since the oil tank is mounted higher than the motor.. Conditions under which the issue occurred seemed to imply sumping while running.   Based on the stated original conditions and not knowing the history, I would have pulled it apart.. Now that we know it has gear cams and 130000 miles it might be worth while to try an diagnose the motor issues yourself..   Unfortunately you might need to run the bike at highway speeds and high temps to get the issue to occur.. If things are cooling off, you might not see the issue till it warms up next spring..  As Robin says, "Lifters and bearings are maintenance items".  There my also simply be another issue.. You stated that the oil dribbled out past the filler plug.. If that plug sucks air, it can cause sumping also... In which case you could replace it and it may fix the problem..

[rmc115]

If it is not misfiring it could be vibrating from slipping the balance chain sprocket on the flywheels (press fit) maybe it is 2 issues. Mike

[FSG]

Would you take the cam chest apart at this point?

I would

[Admiral Akbar]

Would you take the cam chest apart at this point?

I would

The problem is that with 130,000 miles doing the cam chest only might not be enough.. Might want to leak test the motor..

[Snowyone]

Went through this same goat roping on a 99 Dyna last spring. It is a 107 all bore motor that was built by Hot Shot Motorworks and for what ever reason it was sumping at speed.(no oil showing on the stick and the motor laboring and using gas)  I bought the bike a few years ago because it was a good deal and my Brother bought it from me cause my knees didn't like the riding position very well and he wanted a bike.  He's learning Harleys but I told him to take it to a dealer cause I live 2k miles away and long distance diagnosis wasn't working.  They replaced the cam plate and oil pump with SE stuff and claimed was well.  He said he could tell it wasn't right driving away from the dealer but thought maybe it would clear up.  'not'.  Somewhere on this forum someone was having a similar problem and put two O-rings on the sump pickup from case to oil pump.  I passed it along and his problem went away.  Know it's not a B motor and you have a bunch more miles than His does but something to look at. 

[Ken R]

The roads dried up a bit so I took it out for a 25 mile hard ride.  Cruised 70 mph in 4th gear and then 80 in 5th on the Interstate nearby.  (first time without a windshield or face shield in decades; not fun to me).
Cut the motor off and braked to a stop 3 times to check the oil.  It was always right on the full line.  Never even a measureable amount below.  I don't understand how a sumping malady could repair itself. 


If it were my motor, I'd go ahead and pull the cam cover and cam plate and at least change the o-rings.  But since it's not mine and she doesn't have a lot of money to go on a fishing trip, I told here to take it and monitor oil level.  Don't add any, just monitor and let me know if you see anything abnormal.


The motor pulls really strongly, probably because the motorcycle is very light in comparison to my Limited.  The only aftermarket changes are the cams and I don't know what she put in.  Probably 21's or 26's.   But the motor sounds good and runs well.  If I was unaware of any oil issues, I wouldn't suspect that this motorcycle has any problems at all. 


I'm about 50% expecting it to come back with low oil in the tank symptoms again.  Other than the spark plug wire being chaffed and possibly grounding out intermittently, I don't think I fixed anything. 


One positive note:  I've learned more about compression tests and testers and leak-down testing.  I built my own leak-down tester using the pressure gauge from my compressor tester.  Also, I learned why the shrader valve is different in a compression tester and a tire valve stem valve.  The spring is much lighter in a leak down tester . . . to let the cylinder pressure blow by the valve but not come back out. 


Ken

[04 SE Deuce]

   As a Snap-on dealer I always carried the comp. cores.

With 60K on the cam chest,  cam bearings and lifters would be on my replacement list also.  -Rick

[Ken R]

She came by and got her motor today.  Started it up.  "It's vibrating".    She's disappointed, I'm disappointed.   


It's not vibrating much, but she's had the motorcycle since new and it now has 130,000 miles on it.  She knows how it's always felt.  So something is going on that is beyond my knowledge or ability to diagnose.


The story of how this transpired is becoming a little more clear.  The motorcycle had loss of power and intermittently felt/sounded as if it was running on one cylinder.  They stopped and found the oil level in the tank was 2 quarts low.  After adding the oil, the original loss of power was still there; but now it vibrates, too.  They rode easily the rest of the way home.  Later, they brought the motor to me to see if I could help. 


I did compression and leak-down tests. I'm confident that there aren't any problems in the top end.  I found the front spark plug wire chaffed by the hose clamp and the electrodes in both plugs were not sharp-edged; but rather rounded.  I replaced the plugs and did a resistance check on the wires.  Re-routed the front wire behind the petcock and rotated the hose clamp away from it.  Valve train sounds good.  I can see oil being returned to the tank.  Rode 20 to 25 hard miles last night and checked oil tank level several times.  It never budged (on the dipstick)


Changed engine oil, primary oil, and oil filter.  All had over 5,000 miles on them.   Test rode.  I was keen to any vibration, but not familiar with how vibration-free a "B" motor.  Seemed ok to me. 
So that's where we are.   I have all kinds of possible maladies in my mind.   Scissored crank, something with the balance chain, etc. ;  All beyond what I am willing to dig into on someone else's motorcycle. 


So now I'm googling Softail vibrating. 


Ken

[Tsani]

I think at this point I would open up the cam chest and check things out. Check the crank runout while in there. Can't hurt. If every thing checks out and your confident that it not the topend, then that really just leaves either something in the primary or the balancers. Sounds like she is saying the vibes happen while idling? B motors will give you some vibration at speed, not much but some folks are more sensitive to it.

[calif phil]

Ken did you check the motor mounts for tightness?

[Hossamania]

A friend has the "B" motor, and unfortunately his vibes were caused by the tensioners/guides going bad on the balancers.
Change the plug wires, just because they are suspect. Then, I'm with Tsani, check the cam chest, runout, maybe compensator or something else in the primary. Have her run it, see if she can live with it until the real problem becomes obvious.
Phil has a good point to check also, might be something simple. Loose exhaust mount?

[Ken R]

Ken did you check the motor mounts for tightness?

Did not, Phil.  After she took the motor, I did more searches for Softail vibrating.  Read about the things that can cause it. 


You see, I didn't realize it was vibrating.  At idle, it seemed less than my Limited 103 felt.


I really think it's something inside the engine.  Too many symptoms piled up at the same time. 


Ken