REPRINT FROM OLD HTT: LET'S TALK ABOUT FXR GEARING

[ClassicRider2002]

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS A REPRINT TOPIC FROM "OLD" HTT

I have saved many great topical discussions as "links" over the years and would hate to see these lost, so I am reprinting this TOPIC here @ OLSTONEY'S REQUEST, which may "perhaps" help some.

TOPIC:  LET'S TALK ABOUT FXR GEARING  06-04-08


From: olstoney2 [Buddy WMC] (Original Message) Sent: 6/4/2008 5:05 AM

Need some input guys,

After my 85" engine build with the increased power, the low (3.37) factory gearing 24T engine, 37T clutch basket, 32T trans and 70T rear has got to go. I did install a 33T trans pulley awhile back and achieved a slight rpm drop. With that combo, the final drive dropped to 3.27 or so.

I could not fit a 34T trans pulley as the belt adjustment (fairly new belt), is all the way forward. The other alternative was to grind the slots in the frame to achieve more forward movement. I am unwilling to modify a cherry FXR frame. I'm willing to give up some light to light performance to achieve a lower Interstate cruising rpm.

Here are the options I came up with:

(1) Install a 32T trans pulley and 65T rear pulley. The final drive would be about 3.15 about he same as the 34T/70T combo.

(2) Keep the current 33T trans and go with the 65T rear. The final drive would be about 3.08, maybe too high?

I understand that I'll have to buy a new belt, but am not sure about what tooth count to buy. I do have a new 32T BDL trans pulley and new 65T HD rear pulley on the shelf new.

Any opinions on which way to go, or other options would be appreciated.

I'm trying to drop the rpm's at higher Interstate speeds. My bike is a 93 FXLR and with the stock gearing, the bike turns over 3200 @ 70mph. The club I ride with routinely packs at 80-85mph, so I'm really winding the engine at those speeds up to keep up with the pack.

The change to the 33T trans dropped the rpm's about 150, not much. My newly upgraded engine has an 85" Revolution Performance big bore kit at 10.5 to 1 compression, ported Screamin Eagle heads, V-Thunder EVL-5015 cam at .585 lift, V-Thunder lifters, SE pushrods and an S&S Super E. I'm in the process of breaking the engine in now and coudn't be happier with the performance.

My research has revealed that I can't change the primary gearing due to the pin count on the primary chain, so I must retain the 24T engine and 37T clutch basket. Changing the secondary ratio seems to be my only option. That's why I'm seeking opinions and advice.

[ClassicRider2002]

"Oldgoat" States~~~

I just got my 91 FXRT back on the road after quite a few motor mods.  I am currently running a 32/65 combo.  The stock belt had enough adjustment, it is not quite all the way back in the slot.  I am still turning about 3600 at 78-80MPH.  I am thinking about trying an Andrews 33 tooth pulley with the 65 rear. 

I plan on putting an Ultima 6 speed in next winter, would like to get by this year with the 33/65. 

I bought a BDL 34 tooth pulley before I read several posts here that the BDL pulleys were soft and wear out quickly.   

[ClassicRider2002]

ClassicRider2002 States~~~

Here is the stock set up on my 1999 FXR2 for gear ratios and part numbers that relate to this gearing....essentially 6 parts make up the gearing....I also have included my stock 2002 RKC gearing and part numbers, see how closely they match to the 1999 FXR, I am in the process of changing my 2002 RKC stock gearing of 3.15 back to the 2001 EFI gearing that was used on the touring bikes which is 3.37 gearing and thus am showing those part numbers as well.

So humor me and explain what is your goal/objective with your gearing what are you experiencing right now that you dislike and what would you like to accomplish.
 
Gear Ratios

1999 FXR2 2.92 Gearing

   Gear   Gear Ratios

1  9.39  (9.388)
2  6.46  (6.461)
3  4.60  (4.599)
4  3.59  (3.586)
5  2.92  (2.925)

1)       HD# 37707-98A  36 Tooth Clutch Shell Basket W/ Ring Gear
2)       HD# 40308-94    25 Tooth Compensating Sprocket
3)       HD# 40250-94A  32 Tooth Transmission Sprocket
4)       HD# 40311-94    65 Tooth Rear Wheel Sprocket
5)       HD# 40015-90    133 Tooth Rear Belt
6)       HD# 37550-98    Clutch Hub
7)       HD# 40037-79A  Primary Chain


2002 Stock RKC 3.15 Gearing

Gear     Gear Ratios

1          10.11
2            6.96
3            4.95
4            3.86
5            3.15


1)   HD# 37707-98A  36 Tooth Clutch Shell Basket W/ Ring Gear
2)   HD# 40308-94     25 Tooth Compensating Sprocket
3)   HD# 40250-94B  32 Tooth Transmission Sprocket
4)   HD# 40217-00     70 Tooth Rear Wheel Sprocket
5)   HD#  40024-97    139 Tooth Rear Belt
6)   HD# 37550-98     Clutch Hub
7)   HD# 40037-79A   Primary Chain


2002 RKC     3.37 Gearing

Gear      Gear Ratios

1          10.81
2            7.45
3            5.29
4            4.13
5            3.37


1)   HD# 47846-99A   37 Tooth Clutch Shell Basket W/ Ring Gear
2)   HD# 40269-85A   24 Tooth Compensating Sprocket
3)   HD# 40250-94B   32 Tooth Transmission Sprocket
4)   HD# 40217-00     70 Tooth Rear Wheel Sprocket
5)   HD#  40024-97    139 Tooth Rear Belt
6)    HD# 37550-98    Clutch Hub
7)    HD# 40037-79A  Primary Chain

[ClassicRider2002]

ClassicRider2002 states~~

olstoney2.....

(2) Keep the current 33T trans and go with the 65T rear. The final drive would be about 3.08, maybe too high?

I am quite interested in your "plight" here and what you are trying to do.....as I recently posted into another "forum" about GEARING for an FXR as well....just last nite....so this "quest" is of interest to me personally.

Your comment above, about "......maybe too high?....." is what I am trying to grasp, as to what your objective is, when you are saying that what are you thinking exactly, ..........that the bike will or will not perform __________  <~~~~how? ? ? ?   

Just to let you know how a 1999 FXR2 performs basically with a:
DSV 16525 Vance & Hines Pro Pipe 2-1
29008-90A  Evolution 1340 High Flow Air Cleaner (which I believe is now obsolete)
29580-99  Air Cleaner Insert FXR2 Template
27094-88 Jet Needle/carb needle Sportster
27170-89 45 Slow Idle Jet
3010 V~Thunder Cam

and the rest of the engine stock I have a bike that is getting roughly 50 mph on the highway at 70-75 mph.  In the mountains and in the city of course not that high.

The bike performs very well in the mountains and in the city as well.  Basically I am riding this bike in elevations between 5,000 - 9,000 100% of the time while taking it up to 12,000 Feet a few times a year.  Never has been at sea level.

[ClassicRider2002]

Olstoney states~~

classicrider,
Thank you for your in depth post. I'm trying to drop the rpm's at higher Interstate speeds. My bike is a 93 FXLR and with the stock gearing, the bike turns over 3200 @ 70mph. The club I ride with routinely packs at 80-85mph, so I'm really winding the engine at those speeds up to keep up with the pack.

The change to the 33T trans dropped the rpm's about 150, not much. My newly upgraded engine has an 85" Revolution Performance big bore kit at 10.5 to 1 compression, ported Screamin Eagle heads, V-Thunder EVL-5015 cam at .585 lift, V-Thunder lifters, SE pushrods and an S&S Super E. I'm in the process of breaking the engine in now and coudn't be happier with the performance.

My research has revealed that I can't change the primary gearing due to the pin count on the primary chain, so I must retain the 24T engine and 37T clutch basket. Changing the secondary ratio seems to be my only option. That's why I'm seeking opinions and advice.

[ClassicRider2002]

ClassicRider2002 States~~~

olstoney2~~~
A) I'm trying to drop the rpm's at higher Interstate speeds.
B) stock gearing, the bike turns over 3200 @ 70mph. The club I ride with routinely packs at 80-85mph, so I'm really winding the engine at those speeds up to keep up with the pack.
C) 85" Revolution Performance big bore kit at 10.5 to 1 compression, ported Screamin Eagle heads, V-Thunder EVL-5015 cam at .585 lift, V-Thunder lifters, SE pushrods and an S&S Super E.
D) The change to the 33T trans dropped the rpm's about 150, not much.  

First.....WOW!!!!!! 10.5 Compression and .585 lift.....that's alot of change from what the stock engine is like.....WOW WOW WOW.....lol

My question there if we can digress for a moment is why a .585 lift, why not more of a 570 lift....quicker grunt....isn't the .585 lift a bit more delayed....you are riding one of the litest bikes HD makes.....somewhere around 560 lbs.  You said you are happy, the work is done, your not going back, I understand....I am just curious is all....I had a 2003 Dyna Low Rider with ported heads, KB 10:1 pistons, 570 S&S cams, by the time it was finished it was at 10.5:1 compression and it was a smokin machine....I had one buddy that thought it was way tooooo much for that light of bike.....it was so much fun in a straight line.....the indy that did it was all about the 1/4 mile event...lol and tried to carry it over to my bike in some degree....the problem was...it pinged a new tune every time I rode it....eventually I tore it down and got the KB pistons out and brought the compression down to 9.5:1 compresson...pinging left and I am much happier....Wiseco 9:1 pistons....still the same cam....sold the bike then put that into my 2002 Road King Classic....and it's still fun....now I am after the gear change in the Road King Classic from 3.15 to 3.37 gearing....isn't it fascinating that our FXR set up in the primary is pretty darn close to the same as a 2002 Road King the only differences were noted above.....with the major components....

WOW .585 10.5:1 compression on your EVO engine.....LOL yep your RUNNIN HARD.....I am STILL LAUGHIN....oh my I bet your engine is screamin at 75-85 mph.....lol on that lite bike....lol

Well.....since logic is out the window here.....to change your transmission sprocket again is a bit involved.....sounds like you have maybe been in there twice already.....

I have NO IDEA if what I am going to suggest makes logical sense.....but I would change the rear wheel sprocket back to a 65 tooth.....like my stock FXR2 is currently.....the part number is above I believe it may be a "silver" cast finish but you can always put a "chrome cover over it....I am not SURE if that means changing the belt for you....or not I have listed the belt I am running along with the Transmission Sprocket above...

I am just not sure what that changes everything to when staying at 24 tooth on the compensating sprocket and 37 tooth on the clutch shell basket....for a final gearing ratio.....

What does leaving the 33 Tooth Sprocket and moving to the 65 tooth Rear Wheel Sprocket create with the 24 Compensating Sprocket and the 37 Tooth Clutch Sprocket as well?  Is there a belt that works with this combo? ? ? ?  Or do you have to change the belt the moment you change that Transmission Sprocket.....

".......My research has revealed that I can't change the primary gearing due to the pin count on the primary chain, so I must retain the 24T engine and 37T clutch basket. Obviously you don't have many options.....or I should say your options have become self limiting since you are keeping the 24......"

Actually I am not sure I am in agreemnnt with what your research has uncovered....although I do not have the liberty of looking at your actual "stock" part numbers but I am assuming that your STOCK primary part numbers for your clutch shell basket and your compensating sprocket and your PRIMARY chain are exactly the same as my 1999 FXR2.  IF and ONLY IF MY assumption is correct you can look above and see that the STOCK compensating sprocket for my FXR2 is actually a 25 Tooth and the STOCK clutch shell basket ring gear is actually 36 Tooth.  Then look carefully I WOULD ASSUME that our STOCK primary chains are the same as well meaning you can run exactly what is on the "Stock" set up on my 1999 FXR2 bringing you back to a 2.92 gearing set up.....whether this makes the best sense I am not entirely certain just yet....but if you are "screamin" down the highway in a manner that leaves you without appreciation ie: not likin it...then perhaps the 2.92 final 5th gear set up for your highway riding wouldn't be bad.....

Also on my 2002 Road King Classic when changing from the 25 Tooth Compensating Sprocket and the 36 Tooth Clutch Shell Basket ring gear to the 24 Tooth Compensating Sprocket and to the 37 Tooth Clutch Shell Basket ring gear in both bikes the primary chain is used within both set ups.....there is no change for the primary chain....So I am a bit confused by your research....You should be able to see if you have a parts book for your 1993 FXLR whether the stock numbers for the compensating sprocket, clutch shell sprocket as well as the primary chain match my 1999 FXR2 as well as matching a 2002 Road King Classic above.....The reason I know the combinations work for a 2002 Road King as well, is that the Road King is a carbed bike and in 2001 and 2002 the Road King (carb) ran a 25 tooth Compensating Sprocket and a clutch shell basket with 36 tooth ring gear with a primary chain that also fit on a 2001 Road King Classic (MM EFI) which was running a 24 tooth compensating sprocket with a clutch shell basket with 37 tooth ring gear and the VERY SAME primary chain was run in both bikes....same part number.

I am tryin to "wrap" my mind around what you have done already......tryin to figure out what your low end grunt would be like when changing and going up in higher gearing from 3.37 or so down to 2.92 or so....but I think now since your committed to your engine rebuild....your now just going have to run by the seat of your pants to see what's going to happen....ALL theory went out the window with the engine build....lol.....because you have discovered that it's not working for you as well at highway speed.....so now since you are committed to the engine mods and cam mods your left with gearing to change.....

Ok so whatcha thinkin now???

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

unfortunately "Todd8080 quit being a member so his posts into this thread have been lost....he had some good points but keeping this thread historically valid I am still including references to his posts as they relate to this Thread.


ClassicRider2002 States~~~

Todd,

I know when you post it's important....and the Table above says a few things to me.....for example when you take 70 for the rear wheel pulley and divide it by 29 you will get 2.4138 which is what the table says is the "Secondary Ratio" but what i does "Secondary Ratio" mean...what's this information tell me? ? ?

does this table also assume that the compensating sprocket and the clutch shell basket ring gear are certain sizes....

I get that when I look at the table and see the Transmission Pully is 32 and the Rear Pulley is 65 that for some reason we get to a Over All Ratio of 2.92 for bikes 1994-2006.  I only know this because that's what my 1999 FXR2 actually has....so what am I missing to be able to use this table appropriately.....

And while if one has a 32 Transmission Pulley as well as a 70 rear wheel pulley, the table says the final gear ratio is 3.15 for 1994-2006 which is true, however a final gear ratio of 3.37 is also true if one changes the compensating sprocket and clutch shell basket ring gear while keeping the Transmission Pulley at 32 and he rear wheel pulley at 70, so how does one apply the information from this chart and use it? ? ? ? ?

I know I am missing something that's most likely "obvious" to someone else....

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

Olstoney states~~

Guys,
I chose the V-Thunder EVL-5015 @ .585 lift cam on the recommendation of both my head porter and Comp Cams. Revolution Performance actually suggested a TR-590 that was very expensive. My head porter wfolarry (Larry's Motorcycle and Machine), a member here runs this same cam on his 89" Evo. Larry explained that the SE heads when ported flow the best at higher lifts. From the velocity we are seeing, he is absolutely correct. I also picked up the new cam without the gear from a member here at a very good price.

Classic & Todd,

I have both the BDL and Andrews charts. I have been waiting on their e-mail input on the gearing and a belt choice for over two weeks, with no replies.

Classic,
In a menner of speaking your are correct. HD changed the primary drive over in 1994. I would have to purchase a complete new system including both the inner and outer primaries and the starter drive. A very expensive proposition considering that I have a complete new E-One clutch, clutch hub, 37T clutch basket, 24T compensator assembly, primary chain and Hayden M-6 tensioner on the shelf.

I plan to install everything at once, so basically after the rebuild, my 93 has become a 2008. So, what do guys think about the 3.15 vs the 3.08 or 32/65, 33/65 combo?

[ClassicRider2002]

ClassicRider2002 States~~

Olstoney to Classic,
In a menner of speaking your are correct. HD changed the primary drive over in 1994. I would have to purchase a complete new system including both the inner and outer primaries and the starter drive. A very expensive proposition considering that I have a complete new E-One clutch, clutch hub, 37T clutch basket, 24T compensator assembly, primary chain and Hayden M-6 tensioner on the shelf.
Ok so since your bike is a 1993 your "stock set up" is a 24 Tooth Compensating Sprocket, a 37 Tooth Clutch Shell basket, 32 Tooth Transmission Pully and a 70 Tooth Rear Wheel Sprocket.....basically what you said above.....(Sorry just not aware that 1993 had that set up stock) I thought you had "modified" your set up to that.....

Ahhhhh I am seeing a clearer picture now....so there was a huge change by HD in 1994 the last year of the FXR over to the same gearing as my 2002 RKC inclusive fo the outer primary....I am basically learning here with your help olstoney2....

So in 1993 your final gearing is 3.37 gearing.....I MISSED the key word in your first post "FACTORY" just slipped right passed me.....

So what are your RPM's with your current engine set up at 85 mph in 5th gear?


===============

I plan to install everything at once, so basically after the rebuild, my 93 has become a 2008. So, what do guys think about the 3.15 vs the 3.08 or 32/65, 33/65 combo?

To tell you the truth I am still having a hard time wrapping my mind around your engine mods....and how all of it is going to work out with new gearing....(seat of the pants feel) I get your point about trying to bring down your RPM's for highway, use, but as I asked above I would like to know what your RPM for your current set up is at 85 mph in 5th gear? ? ? ? ?

I am assuming you owned the bike for awhile with your "stock" engine and your "stock" 3.37 gearing.....? ? ? ?   I am curious if you could go back in your mind and share how that felt? ? ? ? ? ?   What was it like???   

Then you decide to do your engine modification.....so what's it feel like....besides your issues with highway riding as this is the motivation for posting I get this....but how does it feel otherwise?  When does your cam "come on" (rpm) and how does it feel....with the rest of your mods?

10.5 Compression on an evo.....lol I had that on a twin cam and it sang a tune of pinging.....but that was with a 570 cam.....at least your running a .585 lift cam.....but doesn't that come on a bit late?    I am merely curious in your "seat of the pants" feel that you have noticed...

It sounds like Todd has an idea about a 6th gear for you....for only $500.00 you might get a lot of bang for the buck.....I dunno though still sounds like a lot of money.....but heck you have already spent a lot to do your engine right? ? ? ? ? ? 

With all of that engine work I am just not sure myself (limited "shade tree" mechanic with not a big "shade tree") how changing the gearing will affect it, for better or for worse.....you know how it is you change one thing to get another.... but obviously if you change the gearing and make it "taller" you are going to affect your RPM's @ highway speeds which is what you are after....I am just not sure how it will affect what you might have been attempting to create from "light to light".....

Todd seemed to offer some insight.....he is much more qualified than me to suggest a solution that you might find satisfactory.....

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

olstoney states~~~~

Classic,
Sounds like you're seeing the big picture now. Can't answer your question about the rpm @ 85mph, as I'm still in the break in period and not to exceed 3200rpm. To be thruthful prior to the engine build, I was too busy hanging on to be looking at the tach, but the rpm's were up there.

I'll probably need to make this conversion sooner that I had hoped. I located some loose bolts in the primary last night after finding a primary oil leak. The lower primary to engine bolt had backed out about three turns. I re torqued both front inner to engine bolts and the entire outer. Still some oil on the floor this morning, so I think the front o-ring is shot and will need to be replaced.

That means pulling the left side off, so might as well make the gearing change now while it's apart next week. Any suggestions on the 23/65 or 33/65 would really be helpful at this point. Specially on the belt tooth count, so I can get it ordered.

BTW, I've been riding for 40+ years and earplugs will not help at my age. After 40 years of listening to drag pipes, I'm already deaf (LOL)!

[ClassicRider2002]

fxdwg rugby states~~~

Olstoney,
  When I ran with a club they traveled the same speed as yours on the highway. I have a similar build on a 1996 FXDWG dyna with 10.5-1, .10 over forged pistons with a .575 lift cam (SE-57). It has the stock gearing 3.15 and could run all day at 85-90mph and often did. I could run from Charlotte to Daytona often at 90+. The build was done at 35K miles and has 80K miles on it now. You'l be right in the sweet spot of your cam and she'll sing not scream. She wasnt the fastest from light to light, your 3.37 would do that with your new build is quick as hell, but on the highway the 3.15 would sing and pull away from my friends 3.37. My bike was dynoed at 85/85 before I went with a V&H 2-1 and a SE 44 CV. My bet is your going to be higher, who needs a Twinky!
  The 1999 Ultra I have is a 3.37 gear with a six speed is perfect in both worlds. This would be my recomendation but money matters. 3.15 is great on the highway.
BEST of Luck to you and your BRO's!

[ClassicRider2002]

L-Bar States~~~

I suppose everyone is different but I would run 3.37 gearing all the way to 100hp and torque.  If over that I might would consider 3.15 or somewhere in the 3.20ish area. Just my opinion.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: baldoldfxr Sent: 6/6/2008 1:51 PM
Im using a 32 front & 65 rear pulleys on a slightly tuned 86 fxr using the original 133 tooth belt used up almost all of the adjustment on the swingarm lots but it does fit ,
& works well .

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 6/6/2008 2:40 PM

Thanks for the replies guys!!

Classic,
Just for $hits & Giggles I broke the manufacturers break in recommendations this morning. Took her up to 85mph for a short while as the word was out the cops were working radar on that stretch of road, so didn't want to risk the ticket.

With the 34T engine/37T clutch basket/33T trans and 70T rear in 5th gear, the tach read just shy of 3900 rpm's. The engine was still pulling extremely hard before I backed off on the throttle. With the power on tap, my gut feeling is I'll have no problem pulling a higher final drive ratio.

The question now becomes 32/65 or 33/65 and I need to buy a belt. Anyone have a good source other than HD?

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/6/2008 3:57 PM
Olstoney2.....

Ok so at 85 mph your @ slightly less than 3900 RPM, based upon my calculations you should have been around 3857 but we are splitting hairs....

Ok so I am "jumping" back into this discussion as I feel now I would probably have some legitmacy do so.....as I said above I was having a hard time wrapping my mind around your engine build and how that would affect everything.....but I am ok now...

Here is what you will gain by dropping your rear sprocket to 65T and running approximately 3.15 gearing....

MPH     RPM     Gearing
85          3857      3.37
85          3600      3.15

So you will lower your RPM by aprx  257 rpm

Now here is the funny thing.....take a look at this:

MPH      RPM     Gearing
80          3600      3.37

So basically you are saying you "theoretically" that you might be happy with a 257 rpm reduction and you would be @ peace....lol you know what I mean you would be happy.

However if you were to follow Todd's logic above....and I have no idea what it takes to put a 6th gear in....but he mentions $500.00 and an afternoon and you will end up with your 1993 FXLR Low Rider Custom running in a 6th gear at 90 MPH @ around 3200 rpm.....Now if we took your 3.37 gearing and you were running 3200 rpm you would be at 71 mph.  With 3.15 gearing you would be at 76 mph.

So now let's go back to your logic here for awhile, why did you change your engine....was it to get more lower end torque or to go at higher speeds, meaning you wanted a top speed of 120 mph for example.....

This get's us back to the question for your engine mods....only after you make this decision or understand what you were trying to do will you make a good decision about your gearing.....if you were after more "torque" from light to light and you modify it with gearing back to a more comfortable highway speed....it just doesn't make sense.....as you are only gaining 5 mph more by changing the rear sprocket to 65 ie: 3.15 gearing @ 85 mph is 3600 and 3.37 gearing @ 80 mph  is 3630.

Now if you did what Todd suggested in doing you would pick up a whole lot of benefit....I am just not "clear" on whether how that would change the other 5 gears.....or if he is simply saying you keep everything the same and add 1 more "6th" gear.....which gives you that 3200 RPM @ 90 mph.  That gear however, would only be used in those cases where you were going at a minimum of 80 or more....and I would think it would be pretty "gutless" with passing or performance.....it's geared so high....I guess that would depend on your cam.....now we are getting a little farther from my "Shade Tree" and I am getting sunburned....lol.....

An additional point even with 3.15 gearing @ 90 MPH you are going to be running 3820 RPM....so you are running where you already feel the need to change from...and if you think about it all of your riding "bros" are pushing similar RPM's....not saying that you should or should worry about what they are running...but it's just a statement of interest.

What I mentioned above asking Todd about recalibrating the SPEEDO isn't accurate since on the FXR's it's on measured at the Front wheel not like my Road King Classic where it is measured at the transmission....(a moment of mental relapse, lol).

Here is where your limiting factor may play...if you are riding with guys all riding with bikes with 5 gallon tanks and you are riding with one at 4.2 gallon and your riding at a higher RPM that means your burning more fuel....which means you could be on the end of causing everyone to have to get fuel sooner than they are ready....which maybe speaks to that 6th gear solution again.....had you thought about that?

If it were me, I would continue to run what you are running for awhile without getting caught up in the changes and see how everything works out....my question is seriously just what percentage of the day(s) are you and your "bros" absolutely running 90 mph?

I mean you going through a lot to change 250 rpm's....and for what percentage of driving time....

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 6/6/2008 6:17 PM
O.K. Guys,

I'll admit that I'm not a master mechanic or fabricator, but do enjoy working on the bike. So let's now consider the six speed as Todd suggests, what else would need to be changed?

Todd, from your pics looks like the trap door is thicker. If so, that in itself will cause fitment issues with the conventional FXR rear exhaust mounting bracket and spacer. I also possibly see issues with the FXR clutch cover that has is it's own distinct part number and cable exit positioning. I am assuming correctly that the stock 5th gear would stay in the old case, the new 5th gear with the new case and will my existing clutch assembly fit?

This is uncharted territory as I know really nothing in the transmission realm. I'm just trying to gather the best information to be able to make the best decision. If this is the way to go and it will work, then it's time to sell some parts, save some cash and drop the rpm's.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 6/8/2008 5:36 AM

Classic and Todd,
Thanks for the replies and photos. A six speed could be in the future, but I certainly would not like to have to purchase that fifth gear tool for perhaps a one time job. My only other concern is the modifications needed to fit a rear stock exhaust bracket, or the already small rear bracket from the Python III's.

For the time being I'll probably go with the 32/65 combo to get at least some relief and start saving some $$$ for the six speed.

Todd,
Where should I look for the best pricing on either the complete trans or gearset and how do I post photos? I'm told the files are too large.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/8/2008 8:29 AM

open up the file where your photos are, without displaying your photo, right click over your photo you will see a pop up box displayed, one of the options you will see is "open with" use your curser to highlight "open with", another pop up box will be displayed with a chronological list, depending on the age of your computer/software you may see as one of the choices, you may see "Microsoft Office Picture Manager" if you do see this as an option move your curser over this choice and click on it. Your photo will appear inside of Microsoft Office Picture Manager now go up to the tool bar and click on "Picture" you will have a drop down menu appear and click on "Resize" this will cause your photo to appear in the box smaller while on the left side providing you with resize settings. Next click on the circle in front of Percentage of original width x height:  You will see 100% with an up arrow and a down arrow next to it, and below that you will see Size setting summary with an original size xxxx X xxxx pixels as you click on the down arrow next to where the 100% is you will see that it reduces the size of the photo creating a "New Size:  showing you the new pixels xxx X xxx.  Your goal is to get those pixels down to around 700 for the first number while the second number will be a relationship to that number....if that makse sense....notice you may have started with your photo being 2500 x 1900 as an example so you are reducing it quite a bit.....NEXT click on the box that says "OK" now...go over and click on File in the right hand corner....another pop up box will appear and choose "SAVE AS" wherever your current photo is located on your computer it will be saved in the same spot so for example if your photo is being saved on your desktop it will save the "new resized" photo on the desktop as well. On this pop up window you will then have the opportunity to rename this current photo you have just "resized" I typically just keep the same name with two letters at the end "rs" which to me means I have resized it and can more easily send it to others via e~mail or put it here in HTT if I so desired.  THEN when you are finished with the photo and the particular photo that's in the Microsoft Office Picture Manager and you click on finished it will say you haven't saved the PHOTO which while you have minuplated it by resizing it...it says you haven't saved it....click on DON'T SAVE IF you desire to keep the photo as original before you resized it.  After doing this you will have two different sizes of the same photo, the original, and the one you resized.

Now when it's time to bring over your photos to HTT you will have two options to do so, either by placing your photo like Todd has done above where it appears inside the box or you can "attach" the photo and other's can click on it.  There are benefits to both.....

Hopefully this helps.....if you don't have Microsoft Office Picture Manager...then lol I just waisted typing all of the above, and then you will have to find which "basic" software you have on your computer to manipulate your photo files...but the concepts will be the same.....

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: 1992Fatty Sent: 6/9/2008 12:00 PM

For photoediting i found a good freebie called Paint.net Check it out at http://www.getpaint.net/
Very easy to use IMHO. Kent

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 6/11/2008 4:32 AM

Classic,
Thanks for posting the chart on your thread, perhaps you could post it here as well. Seems like if I went with the 33T/65? combo I'd be at 3.08 and maybe not too tall. Right between your current 2.92 and the later 3.15. What do you think now? I've got to make some type of change fairly soon. My primary leak turned out to be the inner to engine o-ring.

She's coming apart today to repair that. All I need is an accurate belt tooth count to go 32?65 ot 33/65 and I can make the swap.

[NOTE: Please remember that putting your curser next to the paper clip icon below the photo will allow you to enlarge the photo plus save it to your computer if you desire OR if you merely wish to see it enlarged simply put your curser on the photo and "LEFT" click and it will enlarge]

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[ClassicRider2002]

From: Fuzznut5197 Sent: 6/11/2008 6:31 AM

Don't you also need a puller/installer for the inner primary bearing race that's pressed on to the mainshaft?

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/11/2008 9:28 AM

Classic,

Thanks welcome for putting the chart together. From looking at this it does not seem that the 33T trans/65T rear at 3.08 would be too tall. I totally agree with you....Fits right between tour 2.92 and the later 3.15. What do you think now?   

olstoney.....
Well let's review.....you are limited by your bike's parts and how they go together....as what will work in a 1994 or a 1999 FXR will not work in your bike because of some additional changes dealing with what's coming in from the clutch....I believe you articulated this earlier....something to do with your reserach talking about some potential "starter" issues if you attempt to make "wholesale" changes with the inner workings of your primary.....

So as we have been discussing above you have basically 6 key areas that will deal with how one's bike will be geared and affect one's riding enjoyment.....:
1) compensating sprocket tooth size
2) clutch shell basket w/ring gear tooth tooth size
3) transmission pulley
4) rear wheel sprocket
5) rear wheel tire size (to a small degree)
6) includes the primary chain and rear sprocket drive belt that is able to run all of these "gears"
7) of course your tansmission as well....

But from a price point perspective.....all of the above have certain prices associated with them, some are easily acquired previously owned and gently used while others must be purchased new.....so it comes down to an element of enconmics as well....how do you get what you are looking for, with the least amount of expense....

I am lacking the knowledge to know how one calculates these gearing numbers ie: 3.08 vs 3.15....I don't know the math for doing that....would love to know it...but at the end of the day I can apply what the gearing ratio means to rpms which then gives us an impression for what one is interested in accomplishing, ultimately being "seat of the pants feel" <~~~~~it always comes down to this anyway right?  lol....

So because I lack the skill necessary to help you to figure out how one reaches the final gearing number of 3.08 let's assume you have that knowledge and you are correct.....It seems you are correct anyway or I am sure Todd would have jumped in to offer another alternative to getting your gearing taller and it seems his thoughts were oriented towards changing the transmission to some degree.....but that involves more effort money and time....

The difference between 3.08 and 3.15 is like a quarter of 1% so there is just no difference it just means that within the limitations of how HD designed your bike, if one such as yourself was or is so motivated to make your gears taller this is the combination that works.. based upon the parts and combinations of those parts and how they all interrelate.....So....essentially you are going to be able to raise your gearing to 3.15 (just for discussion sake). From the attached chart which you have already studied....you now have some valuable information to determine how that will feel to you....."seat of the pants" for each gear....You know what the costs associated with bringing your 1993 FXR is based upon this information....and will be a valuable resource to someone in the future....just as this thread may help someone as well...

The way I see it you have several options.....

1) so option one is revisting Todd's suggestion, however I am a little lost (just the way my mind works) with his though.....if one has any wrenching skills at all I am not sure if his suggestion would cost someone $500.00 or a $1,000.00 and what you would have as final gearing.....Like I understand what a 1993 FXR has, it has 3.37 gearing....I know what that means, I know what 3.15 gearing means, and I know and personally feel what 2.92 gearing is....but with the modifications he suggested I am not quite sure if your final gearing would be 2.94 or something there of....I am sure it's just me that is confused....but my point is his suggestion is an option....what his option would ultimately cost you I am unsure.

2) make a modifcation to 3.08 gearing as you have mentioned....you know the cost of this as it's in front of you.....you have a chart that if you study 3.15 gearing you would be within a quarter of 1% so it's basically 3.15 gearing. You already know what 3.37 gearing feels like and it's vital to note you know what 3.37 gearing feels like given your engine mods.....and you know what 3.37 gearing felt like before your engine mods.....that would be interesting to read how you felt about your "stock" gearing before you did the engine mods....

3) I am being serious but cautious here.....if ultimately you find yourself unable to emotionally invest to the comfort of your bike given your engine mods...and after changing your gearing to 3.08 and it's still not what you are looking for out on the highway based upon how you seem focused that you are going to ride.....then perhaps quietly selling your bike and acquiring a 1999 FXR2 or FXR3 with 2.925 stock gearing might be something you would find tolerable.....purchasing one of these bikes will cost around $12,000 or so....which then if this were an option brings you right back up to Todd's suggestion and may lead you back to paying more attention to his suggestion above.....

It seems to me realtively speaking that you know you are going to feel "miserable" riding with the "boys/bros" down the highway with your current engine mods and 3.37 gearing.....I can "read" you wincing from here....thus it's not working for you....which is prompting you to try any solution....(this is not bad) so go with the simplist solution to bring your bike down to 3.08 gearing and ride it for awhile....take the summer and ride....after putting your bike in different situations over the summer you will either "relax" and quite focusing on the "gearing" and the bike will settle in with all that you have done to it and it will become the wonderful ride you have set out to create....or else it won't and you can reevaluate later....those parts that you are installing will always have some merit of value to someone so you should be able to recover some of your expense....and chalk this up as you simply being a "test rider" for awhile.....which ultimately for us all here is a wonderful thing....really and I mean that seriously and positively.....you have had the inclination to step out of the box and see if something works or doesn't.....others will gleen from your input and it will help all....fortunately and unfortunately the learning that you are gaining is at your expense.....but hey we have all been there....that/s how we all learn....

To answer your question about which tooth to go with, I would go with the combination that will bring you down to 3.08 as I believe you will find "happiness" lol with the highest gearing possible up to 2.925....if you study that chart I don't think there is any reason to go higher....

Remember everything you are doing is specific to this bike....what I mean is....you have a bike that weighs under 600 lbs (1999 FXR2 weighs in @ 575 lbs) so you have a light bike....and you have thrown some torque at it with the engine....now you are looking for a "smoother" with less RPM ride....given those characteristics.....I would raise your gearing up....as high as economically feasable....given the discussion as mentioned above..
 
Classic,
Thanks for posting the chart on your thread, welcome perhaps you could post it here as well. Seems like if I went with the 33T/65? combo I'd be at 3.08 and maybe not too tall. I don't think you will be too tall at all based upon the attached chart Right between your current 2.92 and the later 3.15. What do you think now? People are going to be privately asking themselves, "did he have to open the flood gates with that question...." lol I've got to make some type of change fairly soon. My primary leak turned out to be the inner to engine o-ring.

She's coming apart today to repair that. All I need is an accurate belt tooth count to go 32?65 ot 33/65 and I can make the swap. I wish I could offer some insight into this, but I have none....obviously I am still a "part changer" ie: limited shade tree mechanic with only slight growth....ok ok ok ok...feels like Joe Pesci....so my shade tree looks more like Charlie Brown's Christmas tree....but I am learnin.....lol  Someone has to have this knowledge here though....
Regards,

"Classic"

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[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/11/2008 9:42 AM

To answer your question about which tooth to go with, I would go with the combination that will bring you down to 3.08 as I believe you will find "happiness" lol with the highest gearing possible up to 2.925....if you study that chart I don't think there is any reason to go higher....

What I meant was....I don't think there would ever be a need to raise the gears taller than 2.925 on an FXR. 

I think HD really nailed the gearing with the FXR2 and FXR3 really well after studying the gearing....that's the GREAT thing about the topic of your thread, and why I have personally found it so interesting.... it really forced me to study and look at my own gearing on my bike.....and whether or not modifying it would be a good idea.....
Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/11/2008 10:00 AM

When time allows.....

My primary leak turned out to be the inner to engine o-ring.

I would like to know more about this.....ie:  what part number did you replace.......which will help me identify perhaps what you are talking about.....I am trying to grasp...."the inner to engine o~ring" lol what the heck is this...lol....it's clear in your mind of course but I am sittin here lol very curious...."inner to engine o~ring" ummmm now where is this....are you talking about the INNER PRIMARY MAINSHAFT OIL SEAL?

By the way before you LEAVE the area of your primary.....there is a service bulletin M-1148 which talks about the INNER PRIMARY MAINSHAFT OIL SEAL.....and replacing from HD# 12052 to a 12052A.  You can go to your local HD dealership and acquire the actual Service Bulletin or perhaps someone here will be able to attach it.

There is another Servive Bulletin for anyone that reads this also M-1161 dealing with an improved STARTER JACKSHAFT LIP SEAL however Olestoney2 it doesn't apply to your 1993 FXR as it only applies to all Big Twin Model Motorcycles manufactured "since" 1994.  The HD old # is 12066 with the new number being HD# 12066A.

Also if I were you I would check on this as well....I realize the "inners" of your primary are a bit different....but you still must have some "screws" that are securing the primary chain tensioner.....so perhaps it's a bit relevant as well to just check....here click and read you wll get the idea.....if it turns out that you notice the screws loose on my bike I am able to use HD# 1783C as hex head screws to replace the phillips head screws and thus be able to torque them to 12 - 14 ft lbs....your going....what is he talking about....click and read and it will make sense:

http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/twin-cam-88-engine-technical-discussions/3798-primary-chain-adjustment-2001-rk.html

I am not saying you have an issue at all...but just make sure while you are in there that you verify whether the screws securing your primary chain tensioner to the back of the inner primary are indeed secured properly.....

and you know right to use red loctite #262 on your compensating sprocket nut and clutch shell basket nut as well???

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: Fuzznut5197 Sent: 6/11/2008 4:02 PM

>>"the inner to engine o~ring" lol what the heck is this...lol.

The o-ring between the inner primary and the engine.
Part # 11147

=======================

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/11/2008 5:39 PM

Fuzz....

thank you

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 6/11/2008 6:17 PM

Classic,
Thanks for the info and your in depth analysis. We decided to try the 33T/65T combo as it is the most cost effective at the moment. The primary leak was repaired today as it turned out, the factory mounting surface on my "NEW" 1000 mile ago HD inner primary cover was not true.

We chucked the inner into a Bridgeport mill and trued the mounting surface slightly. Installed a new engine to primary o-ring, mainshaft bearing and starter shaft seals. The transmission was dry, so we used a slight bit if high temp silicone sealer around the engine to inner mounting surface.

Fired and warmed her up and then shut down until tomorrow morning left the bike on the lift. We should know in the morning if the problem has been solved. Also discussing about how we get to do this all over again soon as we can get an accurate belt tooth count to purchase a belt for the 33/65 combo.

It's a good thing that the labor on our own bikes does not cost us anything. The total repair cost was under $40.00 including 2 qts of Redline MTL.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: SUPERDAVE8404 Sent: 6/11/2008 8:28 PM

Guys you are driving me nuts with the talk of gearing and what it will do for rpms.
Here is a breakdown of it in black and white.It's 2 pages from a magazine with the issue you are trying to sort 


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[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 6/12/2008 9:41 AM

Superdave,
Thanks for the chart. Like a fool while we had the inner off yesterday, forgot to measure the distance from the center of the trans pulley to the existing rear pulley> If I had taken the time to do that I could have ordered a belt.


Pages 2/3 and 3/3 Chart Provided by Superdave:



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[ClassicRider2002]

From: Fuzznut5197 Sent: 6/13/2008 7:01 PM

Anyone have any use for this driveline spreadsheet? It was posted here back in 2003, and I thought is was saved somewhere in HTT, but I can't find where.

Excellent CHART!!!!!:

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[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/14/2008 11:30 AM

Fuzznut5197....

The above attached is a great excel program....THANK YOU VERY MUCH.....I am assuming that this is quite accurate.....it seems this post has taken on some great introduction into how gearing is determined.....

Thank you for posting that....I have already went through and plugged in my numbers.....it even takes INTO account tire size....

Awesome.....

Regards,


"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: Fuzznut5197 Sent: 6/14/2008 11:55 AM
Classic, yes with the tire diameter it is very accurate. The easy way to calculate tire diameter is this:
Mark your tire at the point where it is in contact with the ground.
Mark the ground too. Now roll the bike forward until the wheel has made one full turn and the mark on the tire is where it is in contact with the ground again. Mark the ground again. Now measure the distance between the 2 marks on the ground. Take that measurement and divide it by pi (3.1416). The result is your tire diameter.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/14/2008 12:28 PM
On one of my bikes I am running a Metzlers on another one I am running a Dunlops when ever I purchase tires I get all of the information....each manufactuerer states witth size of the rear tire is.....so that's another way   lol and of course I very much like your addition to how one can measure.....that's a great idea....and formula.....that pretty much answers how to figure out gearing for our harley's.....all neatly tucked away in this thread!!!!

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 6/14/2008 1:54 PM

Classic,
For some reason, I could not get Fuzznuts link to open. How would this latest spreadsheet refer to my situation? I'm running a stock size 130 Metzeler ME 880 on the rear to play it safe as there was a difference of opinion with the members on whether a 140 would fit the FXR or not.

When we make this conversion, we are thinking about trying a 140 anyways. If it means running stainless button head fasteners from the inside to gain more clearance we can do that. The difference of opinion was about the larger tire possibly nailing the wiring under the fender and hitting the inside of the upper belt guard.

I mostly ride solo and have yet to bottom out my Progressive 11 1/2" rear shocks on the lowest setting, so I think I can make the 140 work. The primary leak has been repared and the directionals have been fixed, so now it's time to ride this bad girl!!

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/14/2008 4:38 PM
Olestoney....

FXR2

16” Rear  Metzler ME 880 <st1:place w:st="on">Marathon</st1:place> MBS 130/B16  73H   
Drag Specialties Item # 110-10414  130/90HB-16   $163.95 
Diameter (Height) 646 mm = 25.433070 inches  25 7/16”
Width 137 mm = 5.3937007 inches or just a little more than 5 3/8”

The first time it runs it takes awhile when you click on it Stoney....but perhaps your computer is a bit older or you don't have microsoft excel.....anyway not to worry.....I can help you out.....ok so take the information off of your tire and go to Metzler's website....for example my tire which is a 130 m tire is 25.433070 or 23.43 inches....so Fuzz's offering above allows you to plug in all of the combinations compensating sprocket, clutch shell basket, transmission gear, rear wheel sprocket, and tire size, then you choose what gear you wish to do, and then you select miles per hour and it calculates RPMS...

So either your going to get the information from Metzler or your dealer or someone here will know your wheel size by the actual information just as I posted above....

And before everyone tells Stoney to do what Fuzz did above about measuring olestony's bike is on a motorcycle stand getting worked on.....

So Stoney give me your tire size and I will calculate for you......I just did this again with all new numbers for the offers as I did before but this is a bit more accurate....2.925 is for my FXR2, 3.15 is for a stock 2002 + touring bike, and 3.37 gearing is for a 99-01 touring bike or anything anybody would like to change....as well as 1989 -1993 FXRs....probably other bikes as well I am just not up on all the bikes and their gearing.....

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 6/14/2008 6:23 PM

Classic,

As usual, thanks for the helpful info. Next time you need tires give me a shout. I have a source that can save you some money on the tire(s) and the shipping is free.

If you wouldn't mind and have the time, please run your spreadsheet with my 24T/37T data and the current 16" ME880 and if possible with the Metz 140. I'd love to try an Avon, but the roads tear them up down here. The Metzelers have performed wonderfully so far. I'm leaning towards the 33T/65T combo @ 3.08 if the data is correct. Seems like a good compromise between your 2.92 and 3.15.

A big help is another shop in town has new 130,132 and 133T belts in stock. They have agreed to let me borrow all three and just purchase the one that is correct. The new 65T rear pulley and new rear caliper mount go to be clear powdercoated on Monday. Soon as they are done should be ready to go.

BTW,  if I go with the 33T/65T combo I won't need the new 32T BDL trans pulley kit in stock. If you are interested for your conversion, it goes to you at our dealer cost.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 6/18/2008 8:42 AM

Classic,

I could only get measurements from Metzeler and my distrubutor in millimeters. Not being a math whiz, I do not know how to convert mm to inches. According to Metzeler the measurements in the two rer tires are as follows.

130/90 16 ME880 Width 137mm, Circumferance is 646mm
140/90 16 ME880 Width 146mm, Circumferance is 665mm

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/18/2008 10:04 AM

Also please provide me with the combination(s) with the rear tire(s) you want to be figured....ie:

So is this the correct combination for the tire you are currently running?
24T Comp
37T Comp
33T Trans Pulley
65T Rear Wheel Sprocket......
25.43" tire size diameter in inches

".....The 3.15 might be an all around better choice with the larger 140, we'll have to see what the numbers say......"

It might very well be and up above I have run the numbers for a 140 tire which is 25.71" with 24T comp, 36T clutch shell, 32T trans pulley, and 70T rear wheel sprocket.....so that's in the post above....but you can't run that anyway.....we have already been through that.....without changing as you said "lots" of other internal parts....which you aren't going to do....so that combination you already have.....

Ok....so I ran the following:

24T Comp Sprocket
37T Clutch Shell Basket
33T Transmission Pulley
65T Rear Wheel Sprocket
25.43" Diameter Tire  130 me 880

Notice that the gearing instead of being 3.08 with this combination it is 3.03 so if that's what you are running that's what it would be.....

remember GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND:
646 mm = 25.433  inches
665 mm = 26.181  inches

Regards,

"Classic"


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[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/18/2008 10:18 AM

665 mm = 26.181  inches

Interestingly enough by running this tire size you will LOWER your RPM's about 85 through out 1st - 5th gear with the given parimeters of the 3.037 gearing that I provided the chart above...

I actually found this interesting.....but that would also raise your bike up some as well....running a bigger tire....then you always have the fitment issues....

So take the chart I did in message #63 above and reduce the column labeled 3.037 for each number by 85 RPM's and you will have a very good overview of what to expect.....with a 26.181 diameter tire size (140 mm).

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/18/2008 10:35 AM

If everything is accurate....and if you run the following:

24T Comp Sprocket
37T Clutch Shell Sprocket
33T Transmission Pulley
65T Rear Wheel Sprocket

with a 25.433" tire your gearing will be 3.037
with a 26.181" tire your gearing will be 3.036

The interesting part of this is that if you do decide to run the 26.181" tire or 665 mm 140mm tire with the above combination you will be within say 20 - 30RPMS in every gear at every speed compared to what  2.2925 gearing is running currently with the following:

25T Comp Sprocket
36T Clutch Shell Basket
32T Transmission Pulley
65T Rear Wheel Sprocket
25.43" tire size 130 mm metzler of which I have described in greater detail above.

Personally I think you have found a winner...by going to the:
24T Comp Sprocket
37T Clutch Shell Sprocket
33T Transmission Pulley  (that you are purchasing from Baker right?) and they are the only ones making this size right?
65T Rear Wheel Sprocket  which is obviously easy to find....as it's quite common

Thus.....with the 26.181" tire or 665 mm tire (Metzler 140) then you have a combination that seems to really have been geared higher from where you were originally running from 3.37 gearing....

Now the only thing you need to find is the proper belt size......and it sounds like you are on your way......let me know what belt size (if you decide to run this combo) that you end up with ie: manufactuerer, part number and price....always good to have notes on this stuff....

This combination providing my "math" is correct sounds like a REAL winner...for what your OBJECTIVE is......and like you said given the limitations of your inner primary without having to change many other parts to get a 25 comp sprocket or a 36 clutch shell basket to work, I believe you have a winner here even from the "affordability" stand point.

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 6/18/2008 6:05 PM

Classic,
Thanks for being the math wizard and for the assistance!! The current 33T trans pulley on the bike and the 32T on the shelf are both from BDL. They are both the later style with the wider mainshaft spline, larger seal and spacer. I converted over to the newer style when fixing a leaking mainshaft seal. I have used and like BDL products for years.

The previous owner had just had a new belt installed about a month before I bought the bike. I still can't figure out why his Indy did not change the pulley and seals then, lazy I guess. Also interesting is I sent a defective guaranteed for life Pingel petcock that wouldn't move back to that guy over a year ago. My local guys would not warranty it here as I did not buy it from them.

The previous owner had given me all of the repair and parts invoices for the bike. I sent the petcock back with a copy of the work order and was told "no problem, I'll take care of it." After numerous phone calls and getting the runaround since May of 07 I gave up on that deal.

I hope that this project goes a little bit smoother.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/29/2008 10:19 AM

olstoney....

Any updates?

What gearing have you finally chosen and have you ridden it yet?   How is it working......we need details....lol....this was a great thread....now some conclusions....lol

Regards,

"Classic"

ps Fuzznut5197 thanks for the RPMCalc (version 1) xls  document it's been quite valuable and an excellent resource as well!!!!  Thank you for posting it. 

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 6/29/2008 12:32 PM

Classic,

It will probably be awhile. Some of the parts are at the powder coater (rear pulley and rear brake mount) and he is somewhat behind. We are still waiting for a frame we took over there three weeks ago and that is a big money build! It is so hot and humid here in the summer that working is a real chore. I might wait until the fall when hurricane season is over, the weather breaks and it cools off.

I'm going to try the 33T/65T combo, nothing to lose and everything to gain. Have not decided yet between the 130 or 140 rear tire, still getting some input on fitment issues. Talked to a very seasoned Indy who knows what's in the engine. He advised to gear it as tall as possible, so the 33/65 combo makes sense. He will allow me to fit one of his used belts to get the proper tooth count and then order a new one for me once we know.

I also need to purchase a few more parts. Long as everything has to come apart we intend to install a totally new primary drive, extra plate Energy One clutch and a Hayden M-6 tensioner. We'll also rebuild the swingarm at the same time, do it once and do it right!!

I have a refinished 9 spoke rear mag, the new 65T pulley, 32T and 33T trans pulleys, new Russell SS Rear rotor and the primary drive parts. Need to decide on staying with the factory Cleveblocks, going to the Delrin Sta-Bo swing arm parts and the 130 vs 140 rear tire.

After that, next project is to rebuild the front end using the Progressive suspension lowering kit and dampeners I have in stock. Once that is done, the bike will have been totally rebuilt. 

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/29/2008 11:18 PM

I just finished putting in 3.37 gearing into my 2002 RKC this past weekend and went out for a ride today......My RKC came with 3.15 gearing.....25 comp T, 36 T clutch basket, 32 T transmission pulley and 70 T rear wheel sprocket.  So I took it "back" to like the 1998 - 2001 MM EFI Bagger bikes which ran from the factory with 3.37 gearing, ie: 24 T Comp, 37 T Clutch Shell Basket, 32 T Transmission Pulley, 70 T Rear Wheel Sprocket.....

Let's just say I am very very very happy with the results.....of course this bike weighs in at over 730 lbs so it's a far cry from 564 lbs like our FXR's....so it can handle the "buzz" from the higher RPM's per say.....

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 7/5/2008 3:15 AM

Classic,
Happy 4th weekend and glad that you got your conversion done on the RK and are happy with it. I'll keep you informed after we collect the rest of the parts we need and I research this a little more. I'm still up in the air with either the 32T or 33T front pulley. The 32T will defibately make an improvement, but the current 33T will give the highest ratio possible.

Fixed a fuel leak yesterday (bad braided stainless line) and went for a short ride. Damn this bike is strong, I also had it weighed for the hell of it. The bike weighed 540 # full of fuel and I weigh 165. In all fairness there has been some factory junk removed and replaced with lighter weight components.

Like I reiterated before, only want to do this job once for awhile!!

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 7/26/2008 4:35 AM

Guys,
I needed to revive this thread briefly as my project may be only a couple of weeks away. The owner of the shop that I work at part time has talked me into a new set of Avon Venoms. I have ordered a 140/16 for the rear and a 90/100 for the front, they will be here on the 30th. My extra set of HD 9 spoke mag wheels are refinished and we just need to check the bearings, repack or replace, check the endplay and replace the seals.

We are equipped to make spacers and modify the belt guards if needed, but our measurements indicate that the Avon 140 will fit the FXR. We also checked the distance from the center of the clutch to the center of the rear axle where it is now almost all the way forward with the current 136T belt. That measurement is just under 23 1/2" and according to BDL's chart a 135T belt is the correct length. Looks like we can use the current 136T belt moved back slightly more in the adjuster. This would actually center the wheel more in the fender and give us a little more clearance.

I have also picked up a new aftermarket 89-93 5 speed FXR trans case as I was going to put together a spare trans as finances allow.

Now to my questions,

Classic,
Would you be kind enough to rerun your calculations using the 24T/37T primary, 32T/65T and 33T/65T secondary utilizing the diameter of the Avon 140? I have that in inches, but need to pick it up at the shop today.

Todd,
What are the differences if any in the transmission mainshafts (I have a 93)? I also need to know the difference in thickness between the factory and Ultima trap doors. Thinking about doing your six speed conversion with the Ultima guts in the new trans case when the cash is available.

That will allow me to put together a new six speed trans for less than $700.00. Visually it looks like I only might have to shorten a spacer for the rear exhaust mounting bracket to fit. It also looks like I only have about a 1" clearance from the stock clutch cover to the rear exhaust pipe though. Just want to make sure that my current factory 93 primary drive will work with the Ultima guts.

The assistance would be appreciated. I'd like to get this conversion completed before the Dyno pulls are done. That will be sometime after my Dyno operator returns from Sturgis.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 7/27/2008 11:57 PM

Olstoney2....

sure glad to help....just need your tire size.....

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: mpz Sent: 7/28/2008 8:01 PM

I have run Avon Venom 140/90-16 and Dunlop 491 MU(140)/90-16 as well as a Dunlop 404 in both 140 and 130 on my 92 FXRS. Had to trim the belt guard as the belt slides over when backing the bike out of a parking space and rubs making it difficult to walk it backwards. Once that was done, no problems with the Avon or the 491.
The thing to keep in mind is that the sizes don't mean that much. I don't think the Avon was much, if any, bigger than a Dunlop 401 in a 130mm size. And the bigger tires haven't seemed to make any noticeable rpm change on my tach. The 404 did rub on the back bolt for my left side saddlebag support- had to shim that so the bolt didn't go into the fenderwell as far. I do not recommend the 404, it wore out way faster than the others.
I also have 1/2" lower Progressive 12.5" shocks that have not caused any clearance problems with the 140mm tires other than the 404. (You will love Progressive suspension. I also have their fork springs. A big improvement over stock.)
My bike weighs around 650lbs wet, with my saddlebags and tools and stuff on board. I have no problem with the 3.37 gearing, running about 3000rpm at 70. I wouldn't want to have to downshift to fourth all the time.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 7/30/2008 7:02 AM

Classic,
Sorry for the delay, the 140/90HB-16 Venom is 25.60 inches in diameter. Should be here today and thanks again for the help.
Buddy....

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 7/30/2008 11:50 PM

Olstoney....

here you go.....see attached.

Regards,

"Classic"

[NOTE: Please remember that putting your curser next to the paper clip icon below the photo will allow you to enlarge the photo plus save it to your computer if you desire OR if you merely wish to see it enlarged simply put your curser on the photo and "LEFT" click and it will enlarge]

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 7/31/2008 3:56 AM

Classsic,
Thanks bud, now comparing those numbers to the known factors on your FXR 4 and knowing what you know about my engine build, what do you think? I checked with Comp Cams and the power band on the 5015 is from 2200-6200, sweet spot seems to be at about 3200 and pulls really hard from there. That will change slightly with the exhaust system change that should help the low end some.

We are thinking about going with the 3.08 ratio, but are concerned about the bike being a real dog around town. Our Dyno guy (in Sturgis), says once he tunes the bike changing the ratio will not affect the engine tune, only what gear I'm in and what rpm's I'm turning. I sent Todd an e-mail and am still waiting for a reply on the six speed option.

Looks like we might have enough downtime next week to do the swap.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 7/31/2008 12:27 PM
 
.......comparing those numbers to the known factors on your [FXR2] and knowing what you know about my engine build, what do you think? I checked with Comp Cams and the power band on the 5015 is from 2200-6200, sweet spot seems to be at about 3200 and pulls really hard from there. That will change slightly with the exhaust system change that should help the low end some.

We are thinking about going with the 3.08 ratio, but are concerned about the bike being a real dog around town. Our Dyno guy (in Sturgis), says once he tunes the bike changing the ratio will not affect the engine tune, only what gear I'm in and what rpm's I'm turning. I sent Todd an e-mail and am still waiting for a reply on the six speed option.

Ok you have a 1993 FXLR which you may decide upon having 3.08 gearing.....thus the question is what cam with the engine you have would be appropriate [in my opinion]....in thinking about the Comp Cam with a sweet spot around 3,200 and pulling hard from there up to 6,200 has no value for me, this particular cam I would find quite frustrating as it would be coming on too late for my riding style......I want my bike to pull hard quicker than that...and I would never see 6,200 RPMS either.....my philosophy is about how quick can I get from 0-40 after that then the bike will take over anyway....I am also not worried about what the bike would be doing about "pulling" beyond 85 - 90 mph.....as I barely see that mph except for maybe 1-3% of my riding time.....IF your motivation is to "out run" someone else or something else thus the need to go as fast as you can.....you are on the wrong bike to begin with.....you should be riding a Yamaha R-1 with some special things done to it...or something like that....I am just saying you are on an FXR...it's a "touring" "light" "cruiser" type of bike....

Specifically, my bike is NOT a real dog around town with final gearing of 2.925 with a V~Thunder 3010 cam  along with the rest of the engine being stock, it has great seat of the pants "feel" for pulling low end and dies out at the upper end a bit....but it suits my riding style very well....

Its obvious you arrived at some decisions because the primary decision of your engine has been made, next your decision with your gearing sounds like it is being made as well...with the 3.08 final gearing ratio....and the reason you are selecting this is for highway RPM's, right? after all this has been a very important motivating factor for you....not to "feel" a buzziness at highway speed.......the way to keep this in check is in part by changing your final gearing pattern, that's the bottom line or else you would of kept the 3.37 stock gearing that you started with.  With your engine modifications you probably with the 3.37 gearing would have found yourself shifting quite early....with the first and second gear running out and winding up too fast.....and because of the type of modification you have done to your engine the need for the "lower" 3.37 gearing is really unnecessary, so now the question is how do you manipulate everything to get to where you desire to be, and I obviously agree with you that the final decison would indeed be the cam....

I believe I would give serious consideration to putting in an Andrews Ev 27. It's a bit later in coming on as compared to the V~Thunder 3010 but it's sweet spot isn't as late as 3200 RPM's which makes for a more responsive bike.....it's the huge debate.....do you want it to come on sooner or later....to me "sooner" is indeed better, but not as soon as I have my bike set up to do because you have a more "enhanced" engine while I am using a cam that comes on a bit sooner to mask the "lack" of a bigger engine per say.  Also I believe "torque" is more important than horsepower....and it's the "torque" that makes our bikes fun to ride....it's that "thrill" of getting off the line and feeling the pulling of your engine....and after 75 MPH I have experienced what I need for myself personally.....it's what I refer to as "legal" fun....after 75 mph on roads posted as such your fun is at risk of being debated by elements beyond yourself.

Olestoney you are so far down the R&D "trail" and as you have found it's expensive and time consuming.....but that is ok...it's just where you find yourself right now....so to hear me suggest trying something and if you don't like it then try something else isn't something I would assume you are extremely excited about....

Here is what I would keep in mind you have a bike that is aprx 580 lbs, which is fairly light for an HD.....ummmm well especially as compared to the 2009 Ultra's which are coming in at 880 lbs wet. I would still want my cam on my FXR to come on way before 3,200 RPM's to feel it "kick" in because I would already know the bigger engine would make up for my cam coming on sooner where it would over ride it's short comings per say.

I also think you should keep this in mind.....I seriously doubt you will be riding this bike in the RPM's above say 4200 to 4800 before shifting....

Perhaps a bit of History of the FXR will help to solidify what kind of bike you are riding.....here is a thread I recently put together on another website....I felt that it would be good to understand the intent of the FXR model that HD was attempting to create....if you wish click and read....

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=25417.0;all

Personally, I believe you will really enjoy the 3.08 gearing on this particular bike the way you have it set up......and I would concentrate on a cam that comes on with it's sweet spot prior to 3200 rpms....

I have to admit this.......I am having a difficult time grasping the desire to have such a big "motor" in an FXR....but I believe I have stated this from the onset....but that's what is so fun about this entire process, we are all individuals experiencing our "journies" from different "paths". 

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 8/1/2008 4:35 AM

Classic,

Outstanding job on the history research, congratulations.

Perhaps I'm making the 5015 cam sound worse than it really is. It actually pulls hard from idle all the way through and I really like the cam and performance. I only passed along what the V-Thunder rep told me in regards to the "sweet spot".

The 5015 was recommended by my head porter (He runs it), V-Thunder and others for my combination. The HD SE heads when ported like higher lifts to flow the best. My heads flowed the highest at .585 lift hence the 5015. Revolution the cylinder kit manufacturer actually recommended a T-Man .590. My engine had an EV-27 installed prior to the rebuild, so I'm familiar with the charicteristics.

Two problems with the Andrews, at .495 lift it does not take advantage of the headwork and with the timing/overlap on the Andrews our cranking (static)compression would have been higher. My main consideration was not to gear the bike to be out of the powerband. As your chart suggests and the Dyno operator agrees it comes down to a matter of rpm's and gear selection.

I'm too old to race crotch rockets anymore and just want to drop the highway rpms too be more comfortable and not work the engine as hard at speed. The 3.08 option is the easeist at this point, so we'll try that first. If that turns out to be too high, I can always go 3.15 although it does not seem to accomplish alot, or Todd's six sped theory.

Thanks again or all the time and assistance.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 8/1/2008 4:48 AM

BTW,
I'll always be a gearhead and will have a modified engine. My last Shovel a 73 FXE was an 88" S&S with Branch heads, S&S B carb,Sifton 468S cam and Andrews close ratio trans gears. Those were the days when you built your own engine from parts.

S&S did not have production engines then and when you called S&S, George or Margie usually answered the phone. That FXE could bury the speedo with my wife on the back and some rice burners as well. Still have the same wife (33yrs), but now the 93 Evo.

Wish I had never sold that FXE, although my current bike handles much better as your history suggests. We also had one of the first black 1977 FXS low riders, brand new off the showroom floor at $4200.00. That was the only new Harley we ever owned and ever will.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 8/1/2008 9:24 AM

Olstoney.....



So what would be the cross over cam for Andrews or Woods in that range of lift as compared to the V~Thunder 5015?  Although I must say I like my V~Thunder "product" the V~Thunder 3010 it's quiet and "strong" for my particular application, so I would assume the V~Thunder 5015 to be reflective of such as well....

I see no reason why you won't like the 3.08 gearing as compared to the 3.37 gearing since what you are after is reducing the amount of RPM's. 

This will all be very interesting to see how it all turns out, now you said you are going to get this together sometime this weekend so perhaps in a week or so you will have a "feel" for it's results...?

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 8/1/2008 1:26 PM

Classic,
It all depends upon the powdercoater. They managed somehow to run the clearcoat on my new 65T rear pulley and caliper mounting bracket. They say that it can be refinished, the question is how much longer will that take?  We last talked on Wednesday.

Otherwise all the other parts are here, it's just a matter of when they get the parts refinished and if the lift is available when they are. I agree, should be interesting to see how this develops. If it doesn't work as intended at least the plan can be modified or reversed. It's only our shop time now as the parts are paid for.

The new TP 5 speed FXR trans case will be here on Monday. That option will sit until I get some more feedback.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 8/10/2008 11:16 PM
Olstoney.....

How you doing......here we are just over 2 months since you started this post....thought I would check in and see how you are doing.....Now I know what is meant the "Dog Day's Of Summer....lol here in Colorado we had a historical record setting month for July of something like 21 days or so of 90 degrees or warmer.....which is highly unusual for Colorado...obviously sense it set a record.....

Ok....well so much for Todd8080 and his value added to this thread.....POOF and he is HISTORY and so are his insights.......don't you just love that about this website...a person cancel's their memberships and POOF everything they have written is GONE.....

I sure hope HIPPO doesn't "cancel" his membership or 85% of the value of HTT will be "POOF" and gone.....but that's ok if he does.....I have his knowledge safely stored on my hard drive and a back up....lol.....

SO WHAT'S THE UPDATE:

He will allow me to fit one of his used belts to get the proper tooth count and then order a new one for me once we know.

This information is really important so don't drop off the face of the earth without posting it....lol....if you decide that the 33 T Trans Pulley and the 65 T Rear Wheel Sprocket is your choice then knowing what belt you need to go to will be critical to helping others.... so if you would provide the Drag Specialties part number if applicable, model name of the belt, part number of the belt if HD or whatever, where you find it, and how much that would be good information.....

I have really learned a lot this summer about gearing.....lol and even did my own gear change on my 2002 RKC......

Some of the models date back to 1985 having a final gearing of 3.37.  I have also learned that all FXR's From 89-93 were all offered in 3.37 final gearing....in 1994 the final gearing became 3.15 and with the 1999 FXR2's, 1999 FXR3's, and 2000 FXR4's the final gearing was 2.925.

I trust you are not getting brain "freeze" on which gearing to go to.....after getting away from this thread and going out and riding....which of course is always the true test, settling in on 3.03 gearing for your bike seems to be a very viable solution. I mean think about it your engine will surely compensate nicely with that gearing....you keep the 3.37 gearing in and it's well to shift baby . com.  lol

Olestoney make sure you visit the other website where I mentioned the FXR HISTORY thread and jump over there and participate.....there are a few guys over there that would benefit from your experience of building the "HOT ROD" Engine....and drop a photo in there as well.

Alrighty well it's just the two of us that some how got this thread to nearly 84 posts....without Todd8080 it's like Dead Man Walking.....lol....I wonder why he "dumped" his membership....

Oh well onward.....tomorrow is a canyon ride day....on the FXR2....should be fun.....

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 8/11/2008 5:33 AM

Hi Classic,

I did read your FXR History post and tried to post a photo, but the file was too large. Not being that computer literate, I do not know how to reduce the file size. Our plans have not changed the 140 Avon is mounted, but the powdercoater still has not redone the rear pulley. That should be done by tomorrow (yeah right)!

In the meantime my shop owner injured his back, so the shop was closed last week and we are now behind on two jobs. Soon as I can get the lift time, we'll swap the rear wheels and pulleys over. If the 136T rear belt does not fit (it should), we'll find out what we need and reinstall the current rear wheel to avoid any downtime.

I conferred with Todd via e-mail and received his input on the six speed option. You are right, the loss of his input here to help others is a shame. Todd did agree that the poor man's route that I am taking should work out, but the gearing will change somewhat throughout the entire range. Your FXR with the different factory primary gearing would not be effected as much as mine.

Although being very cost effective, the Ultima guts into my spare case is not the answer IMO for an FXR owner. The trap door is slightly thicker and has no provision for the 5/16" ear needed for the rear exhaust mount. Baker Drivetrain although much more expensive than the Ultima, has the answer though with their DD6 builders kit. The Baker trap door is the same thickness as stock and can be had with or without the exhaust bracket ear. Baker also supplies a new smaller compensating sprocket, longer primary chain and new tensioner assembly with their kit. This allows one to keep the same gearing as stock in first through fifth, with sixth acting as the OD with the stock 70T rear pulley. This would seem to solve my high speed gearing issue without loosing any engine performance at all.

Depending upon the tooth count on the transmission, we are looking at about 3200 rpm at 85mph with the DD6 conversion. We will be applying for a Baker dealership tomorrow and see how the pricing is after that. Then it is just a matter of saving the cash to pay for the parts. I also like the 5 year 50,000 mile warranty that Baker offers. I did purchase two High Torque primary bearing kits and a hardened trans pulley spacer while I was on the phone with them.

In the meantime we are still waiting for our Dyno operator to return from Sturgis. I'm chomping at the bit to get the final tuning done and see what this old girl has got!

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 8/12/2008 12:53 AM

Good to hear from you olstoney....

Keep me posted....and if you want send me an e~mail with an attachment with a photo of your bike and I will post it over there.....providing you can send it to me....I then can downsize it and either send it back to you or as I said post it myself....

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: SUPERDAVE8404 Sent: 8/19/2008 7:41 PM

I just did a change over for an 87 FXRT and went with a 33-65 pulley ratio.This requires a 133 or 134 tooth belt.The 136 tooth belt is too long.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 8/19/2008 9:37 PM

SUPERDAVE8404.......

Hey thanks for sharing!!!!

Ok so you have an 87 FXRT which you changed the transmission pulley from 32 up to a 33 and then you changed the Rear Wheel Sprocket from a 70 Tooth down to a 65 Tooth.

Ok so your "stock" secondary drive belt was 136 Tooth.   Ok so you felt that the need to reduce two teeth to be that important, [I am learning here so I am not challenging your decision I am merely curious]  so did you go with a HD belt,

So what manufactuerer did you select for your 33 Tooth Transmission Pulley?
and what did you actually use for your "new" rear sprocket?

So SUPERDAVE, you decided to change your gearing because? 

and do you feel you accomplished the goal?

Ok so your primary is running what perhaps a 24 Tooth compensating sprocket and a 37 Tooth Clutch Shell Basket?  Is this correct and if it is....then by modifying what you did above you basically have ended up with 3.037 gearing which is very close to what an FXR2, FXR3, FXR4 is running....[I only picked out those bikes because I am familiar with the gearing in these bikes and because they are also FXRs]

Thanks for  your input/

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 8/20/2008 6:26 AM

Classic,
Posted the history you requested on the FXR history page, photos to follow shortly. Sorry, But we were ducking TS Fay all day yesterday and still today and the weather is lousy.

I'm also interested in Superdave's further comments with special interest on the belt. My adjustor is currently all the way forward with the 136T belt. We measured the distance from the center of the clutch hub to rear axle and according to BDL's chart with that measurement a 135T belt is called for.

As the 65T pulley is smaller in diameter than the 70T and we wanted the new 140 wheel and tire combo further back in the adjustor, it made sense that the 136T belt would work as each tooth is supposed to be about 1/32" in adjustment. I guess we'll find out once we get to it. If we slip the new combo in and the 136T belt will not work the intention is to reinstall the current wheel vback on to avoid any downtime.

We'll order the correct belt and proceed with everything at once. I'm also still considering the Baker DD6 guts for my spare tranny case if I can come up with the cash.


THIS IS WHAT OLSTONEY2 POSTED ON THE "FXR HISTORY" THREAD LOCATED @ THE OLD HTT:
From: olstoney2 Sent: 8/19/2008 6:10 AM

Classic has asked me to post and share a little of my own personal HD history. I'm forwarding a newer photo of my 1993 FXLR to him after we are through with TS Fay here in Florida. My first Harley was a 1948 Pan Chopper purchased from Adamec's HD in Jacksonville, Florida in 1967.

After being injured in an accident (Drunk Driver), I lost my left leg and my beloved Pan was totaled. Moved back to my home state of N.Y., and rode Sporty's for awhile as the shifter was on the right and all I had to do was move the brake lever to the right. Built a succession of choppers putting the throttle on the left side, clutch handle on the right side and using a jockey shift on the ratchet top.

In 1973, I purchased my first FX, a Brown low mileage AMF Shovel from an individual in Daytona. Trucked the bike home and totally rebuilt it including fabricating mounts to move the shifter over to the right side. I also was 1/2 owner of ARV Custom Cycle located in Rochester, N.Y. In those days, S&S did not build engines, you built your own using S&S parts.

Having always been a motorhead, I bought a set of S&S flywheels, built a high compression 88 inch engine using a set of Branch heads, Sifton 468S cam, S&S B carb and Andrews close ratio gear set in the 4-speed. The next year in 1974 my wife (still have her), bought me an electric start kit from Harley to upgrade the bike to an FXE and to help start that stroker motor. Most of the time I rode two up and wifey and I would average 10K per year.

Kept that bike until 1977 when Harley introduced the first lowrider the FXS. We fell in love with the look, traded in the 73 and came home on one of the first Black FXS sold in our area. At that time the bike cost $4200.00 total and our dealer Harv's HD transferred my shifter parts over (removing both primaries) at no charge. Those were the days when you actually could get good service!

Kept that bike until we moved back to SW Florida in 1982. Ran across a used 1986 FXRP for the right price, sold the Shovel and bought that first Evo FXR. Of course I stripped all that Police stuff off. Did not keep that bike for very long due to my employment commitments. We did notice the difference in handling from the previous FX frames to the newer FXR style as being much improved.

After a hiatus from riding for several years and finally retiring, I looked long and hard for another mid 70's FXE Shovel. After not being able to find anything suitable, I picked up my current ride a 1993 FXLR that was a garage queen. The previous owner from Boca Raton had maintained the bike, but from sitting and not being ridden was starting to show some leaking problems.

It was easy to make the decision to purchase this bike. Even tough it needed some updating, it was in mint condition. It was also an FXLR that I knew would handle well. The previous owner had installed quite a bit of extra chrome and the bike had 10 1/2" Progressive 412's on the rear. I also became involved on a part time basis with Choppers Spirit in N. Ft. Myers doing some mechanical work to help with the parts costs. The shop owner is a true fabricator and craftsman in every sense of the word. He specializes in ground up custom builds and for anyone interested our website is www.choppersspirit.org. Of course I'm the older guy in the gallery photos (LOL).

When Classic posts the photo, you will be able to see the changes I have made. I do still have all of the original parts stored away to be able to convert the bike back to a true FXLR. I wanted to go tubeless, so aquired and refinished two sets of 9 spoke black/highlighted HD mags. The brakes were rebuilt using SS lines, Lyndall pads and Russell rotors. The engine has been upgraded with the addition of a Revolution Performance 85" kit @ 10.5 to 1, with SE heads ported for me by our own wfolarry (Larry's Motorcycle and Machine). The engine also features SE chrome lifter blocks, a V-Thunder EVL-5015 cam and lifters, SE adjustable pushrods, TP roller rockers, S&S reed valve breather, S&S rocker boxes, Super E carb and a Dyna 2000 ingnition. The current exhausts are Kromewerks ARII's with no baffles and will be changed to Samson FX-109's with baffles prior to the Dyno pulls.

The engine is 400 miles into the 500 mile break in process and gets stronger as it breaks in. I had to cancel my Dyno session due to the arrival of TS Fay and will make a new appointment when the storm passes. After the dyno pulls are completed we will be changing the rear gearing to a higher ratio to help the RPM's some at highway speeds. We will also be changing the seat to a flame stitched Badlander style and will be installing a shorter sissy bar and pad. I also have a Progressive suspension lowering kit for the front end, but do not want to mess with that until my new Avon Venom's are ready to go.

I could have purchased any new bike I wanted, but chose to keep a piece of HD history instead. This will be the last Harley I ever own and could not be pried away from me at any cost. I hope you guys have enjoyed the personal history. I have enjoyed being a part of the forum and hope perhaps I have helped some other members as they have helped me along the way. I'll try to get that photo off to Tim ASAP after the storm passes.

Best Regards to all,
Buddy....
 

[ClassicRider2002]

From: SUPERDAVE8404 Sent: 8/20/2008 6:54 AM

Well guys this was not my bike.The guy wanted to install a Rev-tech 6 speed tranny.He just came back from a trip and complained his left hand was sore from the clutch.He already had the 65 tooth rear pulley and the 133 tooth belt.It was the 1 1/8 width belt.I believe it was a stock HD belt as it had the Harley logo on it.
The primary ratio was a 24-37 and his secondary was 32-70 with a 136 tooth belt.His motor had some performance work done to it so it was able to handle the different gearing.
I went with a BDL 33 tooth tranny sprocket.They are lighter than the Andrews and the stock pulley.This extra weight on the other pulleys helps to wear the main drive gear bearing down.Less rotating mass means more power to push the bike forward.The belt (133) brings the axle close to the front of the adjustment when the belt is adjusted.
The reason I got him to go with the gearing change instead of the 6 speed is that he bought another FXR and is going to sell this one.
He likes the new gearing and the bike still pulls really good in all gears.
Hope this helps you out with the questions.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 8/20/2008 9:45 AM

SUPERDAVE....

Hey what you shared was quite informative....just a couple of question:

The guy wanted to install a Rev-tech 6 speed tranny.He just came back from a trip and complained his left hand was sore from the clutch.He already had the 65 tooth rear pulley and the 133 tooth belt.It was the 1 1/8 width belt. I believe it was a stock HD belt as it had the Harley logo on it.
The primary ratio was a 24-37 and his secondary was 32-70 with a 136 tooth belt.

Interesting that he had a belt for 1 1/8" the belt width for his 1987 FXRT,  my 99 FXR2 has a belt width of 1.5".  Would that have meant that he must have had a "narrower" wheel sprocket as well, back in 1987 was this common to have the 1 1/8" wide rear wheel sprockets?   I know that this is certainly done on aftermarket stuff.....

I went with a BDL 33 tooth tranny sprocket.They are lighter than the Andrews and the stock pulley. This extra weight on the other pulleys helps to wear the main drive gear bearing down.Less rotating mass means more power to push the bike forward. The belt (133) brings the axle close to the front of the adjustment when the belt is adjusted.
This was excellent input for me SUPERDAVE.....you explained the "benefits" of the BDL product and that is informative to me.....thanks


The reason I got him to go with the gearing change instead of the 6 speed is that he bought another FXR and is going to sell this one.  He likes the new gearing and the bike still pulls really good in all gears.

So at the end of the day.....do you think your customer having done this to the 1987 FXRT liked it well enough, ie: the changes to the secondary gearing...to perhaps consider these changes on his other newly acquired FXR as well, or will he still desire the 6 speed tranny, I realize one can not always predict what us "customers" will do but your insight might be helpful in identifying what he "really" thought of the change.......or did he simply make the change you suggested above because obviously it was less expensive than changing the tranny....of which one might ask the question if one knows they are going to "sell" one's bike why put the expense in of changing the "gears to begin with unless both of these circumstances happened congruently....

The motivation for this question really is to get a feel for what the customer "might" do as he perceives the "wow" factor of what you did, if in fact he perceives it that way as well as listening to what you personally feel in regards to specifically an FXR and the changes which were being made as it relates to the weight of the bike, the engine of course and as perhaps you see the overall benefit of an additional "gear" which would be associated with a "6 speed" tranny. 

Of course....the way the FXR2, FXR3 and FXR4 bikes were set up in 1999 with the 25 Tooth comp sprocket, the 36 Tooth clutch shell basket, the 32 Tooth transmission pulley, the 65 Tooth rear wheel sprocket and as mentioned before with the 1.5" belt which has 133 Teeth, presenting the final gearing of 2.925, I really see the 5th gear at this "gearing" already being the "OVERDRIVE ie: as an example a 6th gear....

This is has been much about the discussion of this particular thread, whether for an FXR "sized" bike the installation of a 6 speed transmission is actually "ever" warranted.....and if so to what end, and if not why not....I believe in the "why not" but am obivously open to the discussion of the "why" as that is what perhaps will help someone else down the road if faced with the decision....

Any reflections would be valuable....

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: SUPERDAVE8404 Sent: 8/20/2008 11:39 AM

I am not sure what the other FXR has in it already other than it is suppose to have aprox. 90 hp at the rear wheel.He says that the new gearing is very well suited for the bike.As for the 6 speed I am not sure if he is going to sell it or use it for another bike.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 8/23/2008 5:43 PM

I found the post that started it all....lol

nearly 6 months ago.....look how far we have all come....

<smiles>

Regards,

"Classic"


Evo 1340 : Gearing Guru's Advice Needed

From: olstoney2  (Original Message) Sent: 1/27/2008 3:07 PM
Guys,
I want to lower the gearing on my FXR. It has a 24T engine sprocket, 37T clutch basket, 33T BDL trans pulley and 70T rear pulley. My understanding is that I can not go to a 25T engine sprocket without changing the clutch basket and primary chain. The clutch basket is new, so I do not wish to replace it.

Is there a primary chain available to go with a 25T to 37T and what would the gearing then be?

What would the gearing be with my current 24, 37, 33 and changing to a 65T rear pulley? I understand that if I use the latter method I'll have to buy a new belt, but will there be any clearance issues with the belt guards and so forth?

From: olstoney2 Sent: 1/28/2008 4:08 AM
Todd,
Thanks for the reply and awesome chart. Why to you recommend removing the lower belt guard and do you know off hand what belt I'll need to buy. I think my current one is 137T. My engine is due for some more performance upgrades including an 85" kit and ported heads after Daytona. I think the higher gearing will help with the extra power. Thanks again!!

From: olstoney2 Sent: 1/31/2008 5:36 PM
I'm still looking for an answer or explanation on the removal of the lower belt guard and newer belt tooth count. Otherwise I'm O.K. with trying the 65T rear pulley swap. Thanks!!

From: bikerider58 Sent: 1/31/2008 8:19 PM

I don't know about the belt guard issue, but may be able to answer the belt tooth count.  Depending on the size of the change, you may need a new belt.  I changed my 30 trans pulley to a 34 and the belt was too short.  The belt fit, but the bolt on the axle adjusters were too short.  Since the belt was new and I had a welder, I welded longer bolts to the adjusters.  So, I guess may wheel spacing is a little short, but it has been working fine for several years.  When it is time for a new belt or rear pulley, I'll fix it.

From: olstoney2 Sent: 2/2/2008 3:27 AM

Todd,
Thanks for the explanantion and makes some sense. Should I choose to run a lower(as I have a new chrome one on order), do you forsee any clearance problems with it and the new setup? I've got to make this change next time it becomes convienient. Almost 3000rpm @60mph is just too high for my liking.

From: olstoney2 Sent: 2/13/2008 6:20 PM

Todd8080,
Thanks for the assistance in the past. Can you help with the correct 65T pulley number that will fit my 93FXLR? I have a spare 70T, but after ramming with a large pack this past weekend, I definately need to change the gearing.

From: evorider0 Sent: 2/14/2008 1:55 AM

Just to let you know.i tried to put the 25 on front, wont fits, back to 24.
in my fxr.
maybe with 36 will fit.
the chain too small.
evo

From: olstoney2 Sent: 2/14/2008 12:11 PM

I'm looking for a 65T pulley now. Does anyone know what HD part number will be compatible as they are only listed for softies? My current center hub measures slightly less that 2" and the backspacing from the rear edge of the pulley to the mounting flange is 5/8". There are also raised bosses to accomodate the pulley bolt washers. I'm running a factory HD 9 spoke rear mag wheel with 3/4" Timken bearings. Any help would be appreciated as I'd like to get this changeover dome before bike week.

From: olstoney2 Sent: 2/28/2008 3:49 AM

O.K. Guys,
Located a NIB 65T HD 1 1/2" pulley for $50.00 shipped. Do not have time to do the swap before leaving for Daytona. I've checked the backspacing and bolt pattern and tried the pulley on a spare rear FXR Mag wheel I have. It will definately work, so the question now becomes stay with the 33T trans pulley or drop it back to a 32T?

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 8/24/2008 4:04 PM

I ran accross this thread the other day that I thought was interesting dealt with gearing as well, even though it goes back awhile....I think it would be a good "link" to attach to this thread:

Regards,

"Classic"

Evo 1340 : Question for riders with 65 tooth rear pulley

From: Gryphon  (Original Message) Sent: 11/6/2007 6:05 PM

I recently installed a 32/70 pulley combination. The result when comparing speed and RPM is approx a 3.25 final drive ratio. With my chain drive I had a 3.10 final drive ratio which I liked much better. I know there are taller tranny pulleys available but I wanted to know how any of you guys with the 65 tooth rear pulley liked 'em. Seems like it would be geared a little too high. Harley calls it a 2.92 ratio, on my bike it would be closer to .301 Please keep in mind that these ratio's are computed by comparing RPM and speed. Are you guys happy with the 65t or have a lot of guys changed them out for something else. I already know I'll have to change belts, that's not a problem. The setup I have now is used except for the tranny pulley so I had figured on replacing them before Spring anyway.

From: hd99fxst Sent: 11/6/2007 7:37 PM

I ride a '99 FXST.
Because of the rigid mount motors, Harley gave them the "highway" 2.93 gear. It's a 25 tooth comp, 36 tooth clutch basket, 32T trans pulley, and 65 tooth rear pulley.

I don't mind the vibes, and want to get some of the acceleration back for my winter project. I was considering the 30T trans sprocket (3.12 overall), but then realized I'd have to pull the primary gears to get to the trans sprocket; and futz with the belt. So I'm going to leave the trans sprocket alone, and swap to the (very common) 24 tooth comp / 37 tooth clutch basket. This will give me almost the exact same ratio (3.13 overall); but less to disassemble, and I don't have to change primary chain or rear belt.

Just one more option to consider.

Cheers,
mark.
'99 FXST

From: hd99fxst Sent: 11/6/2007 7:47 PM

Reading your post again, it sounds like you're wanting to go the other way?

I'd start by verifying your comp sprocket and clutch basket tooth counts. Pull the primary cover if necessary. This will let you confirm your ACTUAL ratio (not estimate based on rpm and speed). Primary gearing may still be easier for you than swapping the rear pulley and belt.

Cheers,
mark.

From: Gryphon Sent: 11/6/2007 8:17 PM

Mark,
   Thanks for your reply. I built my bike myself from parts so I already have a pretty good idea whats in it. I was only using the rpm/speed method because rear wheel diameter needs to be taken into account. I am assuming that you are not entirely happy with such tall gearing which is understandable. The 3.10 gearing i had with my chain was a pretty good middle of the road ratio for me. I was just kind of wondering how others felt about the 65 tooth.I could change the tranny pulley to dial it in a little better but it's a PITA so if I tear it down again that far it will only be to go back to a chain.

From: oldgoat Sent: 11/6/2007 11:49 PM

Gryphon
I had 32/70 on my 91 FXRT and the rear axel was near the front of the adjustment range.  Tried a 65 rear pulley and had to adjust the rear axel quite a ways back but, I was not at the end of the adjustment range.  The change dropped the RPM at 70MPH from 3400 to around 3000.   Bike might be a little less "snappy" (is that a word) around town or at 70.  Well worth the trade off IMHO.

Oldgoat

From: onegoodwrench Sent: 11/7/2007 6:42 AM

On my '95 FLHT I went down from a 70 to a 65 on the rear pulley. Depending on power available or vehicle type what I found was that it was a little doggy out of the hole 2 up but at 70 and above I usually found my self in 4th rather than fifth, so I still had a gear to go. That 5 speed "acted" like a 6. 1GW

From: JAMESP1232 Sent: 11/7/2007 6:53 AM

Gryphon, I still have the stock gearing on my 98 softail...65 tooth rear sprocket. I like the gearing fine just like it is...I even keep looking for the 6th gear that I know I dont have. The bike seems to have plenty of torque down low and thru thru the gears.I never put any miles on it before the pipes, breather and cam were changed so I might not have liked the gearing as much in stock trim.

From: jackrocks57 Sent: 11/7/2007 8:55 AM

Ditto what JAMESP1232 stated above, If you have good grunt down low, the 65 is the way to go!
Billy


From: IRNBTT62 Sent: 11/7/2007 1:51 PM

The poor man's 6 speed. Ran a 34/65 on my 87 Heritage.

As said above, I lost a bit down low, but beefing the engine a bit (heads/cam/carb/exhaust) compensated. Once rolling, it was a wonderful combo. The lower ratio let me take better advantage of the gearing around town and on the highway it ran 2700RPM at 70MPH. This right in the middle of the torque band so roll on's were fun.

The stock belt was adjusted all the way back which caused more frequent bottoming out, so when it broke I used a 130T which brought it back to stock adjustment.

Never considered messing with the primary because I had the old style main shaft. A 25/36 ratio primary with a 34/65 final would have been interesting.  I have an 02 Ultra now and if I ever have a reson to change the belt or rear sprocket it will be a 65T
Deet

From: Gryphon Sent: 11/7/2007 2:26 PM

Well, I guess the best way to tell if I'd like the 65t pulley is to try one out. I almost never run two up so that's not a problem. My bike has a 97" S&S motor with a VT-3030 cam, S&S super E,  and a Supertrapp 2 into 1. I have a 132 tooth belt right now but I'm pretty sure I have enough adjustment left to make it work. Very worst case scenario would be the belt a little too loose. I know that's not good but it would only be for a short time to try the gear ratio out. That's one thing I already miss about chains, it is so easy to adjust the drive ratio to right where you want it.

From: olstoney2 Sent: 11/7/2007 2:59 PM

Just for the sake of conversation, what about a 93 FXLR with stock primary gearing a 33T trans pulley and replacing to 70T with the 65? I'm getting ready to replace the rear wheel and tire, so now would be the time. I have to get a rear pulley anyways and what else would need to be changed? The belt adjustment is almost all the way forward. 

From: Xanadu800 Sent: 11/7/2007 8:49 PM

I have the 93 fatboy with the 2.94 final drive ratio using a 61 tooth rear pulley. I love the way it rides, and especially like the 3000 rpm cruise at 80mph! the engine just hums along! From a light its slower than other bikes, but once I hit second gear it really blasts forward. I have not tried bikes with other pulleys so cant tell you how they compare, but I really like the 61 is is great for highway cruising...

From: Mel in MD Sent: 11/12/2007 6:50 PM

I installed the International 65T pully and belt on my 88 FXRS-Sp.  The motor has had mild upgrades-never been opened.  There's plenty of off the line grunt, it pulls strong and long, and the highway lags are just right.  One of the best mods I've done.

From: 748*2Risk Sent: 11/12/2007 7:20 PM

I did the poor mans 6 speed too.  34/65 and it's so sweet on the highway, my hard mount 88"  S&S motor feels like a rubber mount twin cam.  It's not bad around town unless you want to race from light to light.  The trade off with lower RPMs on the highway outways a snappy bar hopper ride to me.  I got away with a 132 belt but later switched to a 130 (Gates) just because I had the bike apart.  On a side note, my bike is a Softail that has been lowered in the rear, with the 70 pulley the belt would rub on the lower part of the frame support over bad bumps, now with the 65 it's just a little higher and never rubs.

From: fatboyharris Sent: 11/18/2007 3:12 AM

I have a '90 Grey Ghost Fatboy US specification with 32/70 combination compared with the International spec which was 32/61 at that time. I found the 32/70 revved the nuts off the bike for  UK roads at higher speeds and was very uncomfortable for longer journeys above 70mph. I didn't want to lose all of the acceleration, so I opted for a half way house of 32/65. The bike still feels like it would benefit from another gear at speeds above 80mph, but the bike is much smoother and more confortable at lower speeds. The benefit compared with other UK spec bikes is that mine has a better roll on/roll off of the throotle than my friends bike with the 32/61 arrangement.

I ride two up most of the time and the 32/65 combination does suit my everyday style of riding, with the occassional 'found wanting another gear' on high speed motorway  journeys.
regards
John

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 8/29/2008 4:24 AM

Classic,
I have decided to hold off for awhile and go for the Baker DD6. Although more expensive, the kit is complete, will fit properly and will solve the problem of loosing some ratio throughout the gearing.

This way the trap door and rear exhaust brackets will be the same as stock no fabrication needed. Baker also sends a new compensator sprocket, longer primary chain and new chain adjustorwith their kits. This changes the primary gearing and allows 1st through 5th to remain as they are now and for 6th to become the overdrive at .86.

This way I lose no performance, but gain what I'm looking for in the RPM drop at 85mph still using a 70T rear and my stock 136T belt. I also like the 5 year 50,000 mile warranty. Trying to decide now what I'll sell from my hoard of FXR parts to be able to pay for this. Not sure yet if it will just be the Builders Kit or the whole damn transmission. I looked at other choices, but they are slim to none for an FXR. Baker has a complete line including a choice of two 1st gear ratios and their reputation is bulletproof.

Later, Buddy
 

[ClassicRider2002]

From: baldoldfxr Sent: 9/9/2008 4:29 PM

Hello,dont know if youre still following this thread, thought you might like to know fxr's were available in europe with 61 tooth rear pulleys as stock.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 9/16/2008 6:16 AM

I wish to express my thanks to all who participated in this discussion. A special thanks go out to "Classic" for his time spent helping with the math. After my friend's shop obtained his Baker dealership and we have a break from dodging Hurricanes, I pulled the plug yesterday and ordered a complete DD6 for my FXR.

It accomplishes everything that I am looking for, no loss in ratios or performance from 1st through 5th and a 500 or better rpm drop in 6th. That means about 3300rpm at 85mph instead of 3800, much more comfortable and easier on the engine. As we all know performance does not come without a price tag. There are cheaper and easier ways to accomplish this as the discussion reveals. The trade off with the cheaper methods are that the gear ratios change throughout the spectrum loosing some performance.

Soon as the transmission arrives it will be installed along with the Avon Venom 140 rear tire. After a short break in and testing period, we'll be off for the Dyno pulls. I'll post the results when completed.

Thanks again to all involved.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 9/16/2008 8:38 AM

I wish to express my thanks to all who participated in this discussion. A special thanks go out to "Classic" for his time spent helping with the math. After my friend's shop obtained his Baker dealership and we have a break from dodging Hurricanes, I pulled the plug yesterday and ordered a complete DD6 for my FXR.

Olstoney2....

You are welcome......this has been a most interesting "thread" for me as as well.

I am glad you have moved beyond the storm and into a safer time.....

So here is my question, when you do post your results, I am interested in knowing how much a Baker 6 speed normally cost retail, and because of your relationship with your friend how much you saved....I am assuming that the Baker 6 speed has a retail price which is X amount $_________ whatever that might be.  I would also assume that a company like Drag Specialties carries the Baker 6 Speed and thus with a Drag Specialties part number one could go to their 20% Discount HD dealer and acquire the 6 speed for X amount minus 20% = Y amount $_________.   So then the question is what did you purchase this for because of your friendship which would be Z amount $__________.  This might help others in understanding what their options are when reading about the solution you chose vs the solution that is available to other's not having a "friend" who is available to them and thus when it comes to dollars and cents they can make decisions going forward......My point of course is you may have an excellent solution for your bike but at what cost....sometimes the "cost" simply doesn't warrant the "solution" for the typical owner....

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 10/2/2008 3:09 AM

Classic and All,
We installed the DD6 yesterday and checked the engine to trans alignment. Took about three hours, so we have about six in her counting the teardown. We will install the new Avon 140, button up the primary side and reinstall the exhausts today. Plans are to let her sit overnight, add fluids, adjust the new clutch and test ride on Friday morning, I'll keep you posted.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 10/4/2008 2:26 PM

Going to the DD6 was a good choice although a bit expensive. The installation was completed and the bike was test ridden on Friday. Brought the bike home from the shop today to clean her up some for bike night here tonight although it is now raining.

Although there are cheaper alternatives as I have stated before, the Baker was an excellent choice. The transmission is quiet, shifts smoothly and there is no performance loss through 1st through 5th gear as some of the cheaper alternatives would have caused. The trap door on the Baker is also the same thickness as stock and some of the cheaper alternatives are thicker. This means that the rear exhaust bracket bolted right up without any modifications.

With the taller 140 Avon tire, the 25T engine sprocket and longer primary chain that Baker supplies, 37T clutch basket, 23T trans pulley and 70T rear pulley the engine rpm's @ 85 mph is now about 3200. This is very comfortable, I'm not winding the hell out of the engine anymore @3800 rpm's and there is no loss of performance at all.

I'll do an update after a couple of hundred miles and the Dyno pulls have been completed.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 10/6/2008 11:12 AM

Olstoney2:

Wow what a process.....and finally we have "lift off" <smiles>....from what I am reading you are glad you did the change.....and also from what I am reading your first 5 gears remained the same with the 6th gear being the one modified....or did all 6 gears get slightly adjusted from where you were originally?

I guess what I am asking is whether the first 5 gears basically have 3.37:1 final gearing with the 6th gear bringing it back down to something that you like for highway running when you are traveling with your "boys" down the highway at 85-90 mph thus what is the 6th gear final ratio _______?  <~~~If I am saying that right that is?

Just linking these two threads together in case anyone is curious...:

HERE IS THE THREAD:

Evo 1340 : FXR Transmission Change

From: olstoney2  (Original Message) Sent: 9/22/2008 4:59 AM

Hi Guys,

My Baker DD6 complete transmission arrived on Friday. Hopefully we'll be swapping out the transmission starting tomorrow. I have all new parts for the installation including a new pivot shaft. I have the 1994-94 HD service and parts manuals as well.

Having never swapped a complete FXR trans before, can anyone help with some do's, do nots and any other advice? After looking this over in the service manual I am kind of concerned as to how the complete trans actually comes out and goes back in. Other than that it should be straightforward from there. Any assistance would be appreciated.

From: Traveler_733 Sent: 9/23/2008 9:03 PM

Hi stoney. I assume you will have it on a lift of some sort. Rear wheel removed. Block the trans. so as to make the pivot shaft removal a bit easier. New belt? Are you going with the Baker Sealed one piece bearing in the inner primary? Does it have a new clutch cable with the trans?  Clutch ok? Primary chain ok?  With the manual and basic mechanical skills & tools, you should be ok. Good luck! Tell us how you like it.  If you have trouble, that's why we are on this board. Bet all questions can be addressed for you.

From: olstoney2 Sent: 9/24/2008 3:56 AM

Traveler,
Yes, we are installing the Baker Hi-Torque bearing and seal. I had them omit the primary bearing race when building the trans. I had to take the innner off anyways as the race is walking on the mainshaft.

All new primary drive parts. Clutch shell and hub, an Energy One clutch, Baker primary chain and compensating sprocket (supplied with the trans) new compensator extension shaft, sliding cam, spring pack and bolts.

My main concern that HD does not address in the manual is removal of the entire trans as one unit. I'm trying to find out exactly what else needs to be removed other than the primary side and swingarm and which way the trans actually comes out

From: Traveler_733 Sent: 9/24/2008 8:29 PM

I'm not familiar with the FXR frame. In FLT frames, there are the pivot shaft, and the bolts attaching it to the rear of the engine. Starter motor removed. Clutch cable removed. Should slide right out the bottom, to the rear.

From: olstoney2 Sent: 9/25/2008 2:49 AM

We are fixing to find out as disassembly starts about 9am this morning. I'll post the results when we are finished.

From: olstoney2 Sent: 9/27/2008 4:33 AM

As an update, we removed the entire primary side, swingarm and transmission in less than three hours. That's when we discovered that the swingarm outer rubbers and nylon washers were shot. We also discovered a ding in the new Baker clutch cover and the top cover had a partially stripped neutral switch thread when unpacking the trans.

Baker shippped new parts immediately and we had to order the swingarm parts via two day air from V-Twin. Should have everything we neeed to go back together on Tuesday.

From: seattledyna Sent: 9/29/2008 5:03 PM

did you have to remove the oil tank for better access?

From: olstoney2 Sent: 9/29/2008 5:57 PM

No we did not have to remove the oil tank. It is possible that we may have to when the new parts arrive on Wednesday. Looks like it will take three pairs of hands to install the transmission. One guy to set it in place, a second to keep the oil lines, wiring clear and start the pivot shaft and front mounting bolts. The third set of hands will be needed to set the swingarm back into position.

Things always come apart faster than when reinstalling, after the tranny and swingarm are back in place it's all easy.

We replaced the swingarm bushings and installed the Baker DD6 in about three hours yesterday. Checked the engine to trans alignment and all is good there. We need to install the new Avon 140 rear tire and button the primary side up today. If there are no more unforseen problems, we'll add the fluids, clutch adjustment and ride her on Friday morning.

As promised, the replacement parts arrived, the installation was completed and the bike was test ridden yesterday afternoon. All said and done, this was an excellent choice although somewhat expensive and time consuming.

Extra time was spent waiting on replacement parts and having to rebuild the swingarm. The actual removal and installation of the transmission itself was straight forward and took about a day. The transmission is quiet, shifts smoothly and there is no performance loss in 1st through 5th gears like some of the cheaper alternatives would have caused.

The Baker trap door is the same thickness as stock and not thicker like some of the cheaper alternatives. This means that the stock rear exhaust bracket bolts right up without any modifications. with the 25T engine sprocket, longer primary chain that Baker supplies, 37T clutch basket, 32T Trans pullet, 70T rear pulley and taller 140 Avon tire, the engine now turns 3200rpm's @ 85mph instead of 3800rpm's. This is much more comfortable and easier on the engine.

As the entire driveline is new, after a couple of hundred miles the fluids will be changed and then it's off tfor the Dyno pulls. I'll issue a final report after those results are in.

From: HyperDetroit Sent: 10/5/2008 7:33 PM

Olstoney2:

If you don't mind me asking, how much did the whole enchilada cost you, replacement parts, trans and all? I am considering doing the same with my 89 FXRS and would like to budget it out somewhat.

Thanks
Hyper

From: olstoney2 Sent: 10/6/2008 4:58 AM

Hyper,
It would not be fair for me to price this publicly. My friend is a Baker dealer and I work with him part time, so he threw me a great deal for a cash sale. The complete trans retails for about $3500.00 complete with the compensator sprocket, primary chain and transmission sprocket or pulley of your choice. The replacement parts were $257.00 shipped, but they should be credited under the 5 year/50,000 mile warranty as they were damaged when shipped.

The parts to rebuild the swingarm were about $150.00 and another $25.00 for a primary and inspection cover gaskets and a quart of Mobil 1 75-140 gear oil. The labor was free as we did the work ourselves between customer jobs.

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 10/6/2008 11:12 AM

Olstoney2:

Wow what a process.....and finally we have "lift off" <smiles>....from what I am reading you are glad you did the change.....and also from what I am reading your first 5 gears remained the same with the 6th gear being the one modified....or did all 6 gears get slightly adjusted from where you were originally?

I guess what I am asking is whether the first 5 gears basically have 3.37:1 final gearing with the 6th gear bringing it back down to something that you like for highway running when you are traveling with your "boys" down the highway at 85-90 mph thus what is the 6th gear final ratio _______?  <~~~If I am saying that right that is?
 
From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 10/6/2008 12:12 PM

The Baker trap door is the same thickness as stock and not thicker like some of the cheaper alternatives. This means that the stock rear exhaust bracket bolts right up without any modifications. with the 25T engine sprocket, longer primary chain that Baker supplies, 37T clutch basket, 32T Trans pullet, 70T rear pulley and taller 140 Avon tire, the engine now turns 3200rpm's @ 85mph instead of 3800rpm's. This is much more comfortable and easier on the engine.

Olstoney2

Alright just looking for clarification, you had as stock on your 1993 FXLR the following:
Primary Drive  Double-Row Chain  Final Gearing 3.37   with the following:
24T Compensating Sprocket
37T Clutch Shell Basket
32T Transmission Pulley
70T Rear Wheel Sprocket

But if I am reading correctly Baker provided with their DD6 transmission "kit" a 25T compensating sprocket and a longer primary chain which makes sense since you are staying with the "stock" 37T clutch shell basket...but because the transmission pulley remains stock at the 32T, and the rear wheel sprocket remains stock at 70T then what are your gear ratios for the first 5 gears:

ok it appears if one uses the following:

25T Compensating Sprocket
37T Clutch Shell Basket
32T Transmission Pulley
70T Rear Wheel Sprocket
~with a bit longer primary chain.....

then the gearing for the first 5 gears would be:

1st gear:  10.39238
2nd gear:  7.154875
3rd gear:   5.082875
4th gear:   3.982125
5th gear:   3.2375

Which means to me that you ended up changing your first 5 gears from 3.37 final gearing down to 3.2375 final gearing for the first 5 gears.....and that your "6th" gear must be coming in around 2.79 - 2.82 or so to accomodate the 85 mph in 6th gear.

THUS:
What you had available to you by ONLY changing the rear wheel sprocket from 70T to 65T and changing the 32T transmission sprocket to a 33T transmission sprocket also requiring a larger rear wheel belt would have "netted" you a resulting 3.037 final gearing ratio all at an appoximate value of $350.00 which would have left you at 3400 rpms at 85 MPH in 5th gear.  However, with the Baker set up, if I am calculating this all correctly you netted a "Lower" RPM of 200 when traveling at 85 mph in 6th gear vs the 5th gear set up of 3400 rpms at 85 mph, but spent apprx. $3,500 "retail" to acquire such?  You did however keep your first 5 gears closer to the original final ratio which was 3.37 gearing OEM and with the Baker it has only been lowered to 3.2375 final gearing for the first 5 gears if indeed I am understanding this all correctly.....which "nets" you more "pull" in the first 5 gears as well, I believe vs if you had changed your OEM stock set up to get a lower RPM for 5th gear.

I think I am reading this correctly....

Am I making sense and is my "logic' correct?

If so, then what you accomplished with the expenditure of the 6 gear Baker Transmission is keeping your bike closer to the "power" "street seat of the pants feel" for the first 5 gears and really accomodated dropping your RPM's for the 6th gear which you feel was important at the 85-95 mph speed.....most likely being able to run your bike at 95 mph at 3850 or less in RPMS.....while being able to ride comfortably at 85 MPH @ 3200 RPMs. 

WOW like I said what a journey.....now all we need is a 200 mile check up and a 1,000 mile check up and a 5,000 mile check up.....and a report of say a 5-6 day trip of 400-500 mile days to tell us all what it feels like....

WOW what a journey and one I have learned a lot from this summer for sure!

END OF THREAD

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 10/6/2008 2:59 PM

Classic,
Your logic seems correct in a manner of speaking, however the sixth gear is at .086. With the change in the compensator and longer chain, the gearing changes in the primary to keep 1st through 5th the same as stock with sixth acting as your overdrive. The larger Avon rear tire also factors into the equation which is why we went back to a 32T trans pulley instead of the 33T that was installed. Baker has two low gear ratios to choose from. I chose to stay with the stock gear ratios.

We were running a 24T engine/37T clutch,33T and 70 rear with a smaller rear tire. 3800+ rpms or so @ 85mph. Baker did the math as you did and suggested going to the 32T trans pulley with the larger rear tire. This would put us right about at 3200 rpm @ 85mph,  which is where I wanted to be.

There is definately no loss of performance through the gears and the engine is not doggy as I suspected it might be by going the other way. The seat of the pants pull is still there, but the rpm drop in sixth is great! I did send you a private e-mail earlier when you asked about the pricing and received no response. Figured you might be on vacation or something.

Due to my connection at the shop, I can't get specific on the pricing. Let's just say that the discount between suggested retail and a percentage over dealer was enough to make this a worthwhile project for me. I also purchased a complete transmission assembled at Baker that costs a bit more. You can buy the Builders Kit that includes all the parts needed to install DD6 guts into your existing case for less money. I wanted to keep my five speed as a backup as it is numbered to my bike.

We did the work ourselves, so the labor was free. Now it's a matter of putting a few miles on the trans, readjusting everything, changing the fluids again and off to the Dyno.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: Flatlander713 Sent: 10/11/2008 11:20 AM

Thanks to all that posted on this thread. Very valuable info here!

[ClassicRider2002]

THIS CONCLUDES THE THREAD AS IT WAS WRITTEN IN HARLEY TECH TALK AT MSN, ANYTHING WRITTEN FROM THIS POINT WILL BE NEW OR ADDED INFORMATION.

Olstoney2, asked that I copy this over before the information became lost.....hopefully this will help other's with gearing on their FXR's either now or in the future....

Regards,

"Classic"

[Buddy WMC]

To clear up a misconception this is (was?) olstoney2.

The new system would not accept my previous username, so I had to re-register. Also to clear another issue up, I had stated that Baker supplied a 25T engine sprocket with the transmission. In fact the engine sprocket is a 28T. Therefore, the primary gearing is as follows 28T engine sprocket, 37T clutch basket and a two pin longer primary chain supplied by Baker. The secondary gearing is a 32 Trans pulley and a 70T rear pulley. After conferring with Baker during assembly, we chose the 32T trans pulley over a 33T due to the larger circumference of the 16" Avon 140 rear tire that replaced the 16" Metzeler 130.

Baker also offers two different sets of gear ratios inside of the transmission. I chose to stay with the stock FXR factory gearing in 1st through 5th as I knew the engine would perform the same as with the stock 5-speed. What I gained was the 6th gear and the lower rpms I was looking for at Interstate cruising in the 85mph range. I also gained a very smooth shifting, quiet, easy to find neutral transmission that so far has been reliable and leak free. I'm also confident that the Baker can and will handle the current HP of my engine and any future upgrades in that area.

I had the bike dynoed a couple of weeks ago and have posted those results elsewhere. In conclusion, after nine Dyno pulls and adjustments the final HP was 98.6 with 95.3 ft lbs of torque. We know more is available with an exhaust and/or perhaps a cam change. For the time being I'm leaving well enough alone and looking into improvements that will work, not maybe work.

I again thank Classic and all the other members that contributed. Classic feel free to recalulate the gearing if you choose to do so with the correct engine sprocket tooth count.

Best Regards to all,
Buddy.....

[ClassicRider2002]

Hello,

Well I found another interesting TOPIC located in the OLD HTT SITE, and so I thought I would place it into this "THREAD",

CLICK HERE:  TOPIC:  1993 FXLR TRANSMISSION LEAK HELP  08-27-07

Regards,

"Classic"