Author Topic: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build  (Read 5246 times)

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Offline les

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Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« on: November 08, 2017, 10:12:11 AM »
I've got an extra engine sitting in my engine bench.  It's from a 2010 touring.  I'm thinking about making it a project.  I really like big inch engines and would like to feel that again by eventually dropping it into my 2011 Road King.

I have some money, but don't want to spend a ridiculous amount either.  Also, since it's an extra engine I can spread the work out over some period of time.  By big inch, I'm thinking 116" and up.

Advice and recommendations are welcome.

(The current engine on the bench is a Donut Build that I did for a guy before we dropped a 120R in his bike.  I ended up buying the engine off him.)

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2017, 10:51:05 AM »
113-117" are versatile and can be done with readily available parts. With a case bore and oem ported heads these builds are very strong. Also don't forget a 110 bolt-on, now a case bore is not needed.
Problem with all of these larger builds is you will be knocking on $5500 parts and machine work after case and crank work and you are now you are close to 124" crate motor or a 124 kit for the same dollars. They will all need a stout clutch, bigger tb and injectors to live and perform to their potential.

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2017, 10:56:19 AM »
You have to give your budget, or the ideas will be all over the map. One guys idea of a little money will differ from another guys.
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Offline Templer

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2017, 12:02:17 PM »
Just do a 124 and  "BE DONE WITH IT!!"

Offline Matt C

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2017, 06:05:40 PM »
With a turbo!

Offline C-Cat

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2017, 07:38:46 PM »
I'd say a budget 110ci.If you're splitting the cases 124 to get the most bang for dollars spent.
124ci. 07 Streetbob
107ci. '11 Roadglide

Offline prodrag1320

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2017, 05:04:21 AM »
do a 4.250" x 4.375" 124"

Offline dsvracer

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2017, 06:56:34 AM »
i would suggest the 117. relatively inexpensive, make lots of power and is very durable, long lasting.  it has it all.  dsv
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Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2017, 09:31:57 AM »
i would suggest the 117. relatively inexpensive, make lots of power and is very durable, long lasting.  it has it all.  dsv

I was sort of thinking around that displacement too.  I can bore my own cases, perform Timken conversion, and install manual compression releases.  So, there is a lot I can do in my own garage.  I will need to send out for head work.  Yes, all of this is the same regardless on whether it's a 117" or a 124".

I'd like to spend around $3K - $3.5K.

Let's say I did a 124"  Would my dickhead flywheel rods be ok if I got the bottom trued and welded?  Or, would I need to drop a bunch of $$$ on an S&S flywheel assembly?

Online Prostock

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2017, 09:45:32 AM »
117 4.375 stroke low compression is a great, reliable touring motor.  With correct components, 122-132 hp&tq.  2010 flywheels I believe still has the bushing on the head of the rod which can go bad. 

Offline Barrett

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2017, 09:55:11 AM »
There's a set of MVA's in the swap meet at a good price..

Online locker55

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2017, 11:04:00 PM »
Should do the crank up anyways. With all the story's of the 95"ers with compression many of us learned twice how to do it right. Build the top and then build the bottom, Bottom up build has always been cheaper.
Never skimp on the crank, you will be happier and have more money in the long run.
I agree with HD Street Performance on the cost, then the clutch, TB, pipe, new grips......it's endless.....lol
Good luck with the way you go it.

Offline Scott P

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2017, 04:07:30 AM »
117".
Otto Knowbetter sez, "Even a fish wouldn't get caught if he kept his mouth shut"

Offline dsvracer

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2017, 05:19:18 AM »
if you want to go to a 124 a better crank will be needed.  it may appear to cost more money to buy the S&S crank but in the long run it'll be cheaper, it'll be money well spent and save you down time in the future when the hd wheels just couldn't take it anymore.  dsv
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Offline TorQuePimp

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2017, 03:51:24 PM »
Have a budget in mind?

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2017, 04:11:41 PM »

I'd like to spend around $3K - $3.5K.

Let's say I did a 124"  Would my dickhead flywheel rods be ok if I got the bottom trued and welded?  Or, would I need to drop a bunch of $$$ on an S&S flywheel assembly?

You need a 5\8 stroke crank to get there so a new S&S is in the cards and it has good rods.
I don't think the budget is realistic.

Offline N-gin

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2017, 04:50:56 PM »
i would suggest the 117. relatively inexpensive, make lots of power and is very durable, long lasting.  it has it all.  dsv

I was sort of thinking around that displacement too.  I can bore my own cases, perform Timken conversion, and install manual compression releases.  So, there is a lot I can do in my own garage.  I will need to send out for head work.  Yes, all of this is the same regardless on whether it's a 117" or a 124".

I'd like to spend around $3K - $3.5K.

Let's say I did a 124"  Would my dickhead flywheel rods be ok if I got the bottom trued and welded?  Or, would I need to drop a bunch of $$$ on an S&S flywheel assembly?

117 is great.
You may want to have the machine shop do the timken. Usually the cases need line bored to line thing up. Same with cylinders being not square.. may take some 💰 but a good foundation goes a long way..

Myself I'm still in the works of building a 117, but saving for the machine work is hard to do. Going on 3 years but I know it's going to be worth every penny. The head Porter is going to set my lower end up. Maybe this winter if things go well.  :baby:
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Offline 1workinman

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2017, 04:52:14 PM »
if you want to go to a 124 a better crank will be needed.  it may appear to cost more money to buy the S&S crank but in the long run it'll be cheaper, it'll be money well spent and save you down time in the future when the hd wheels just couldn't take it anymore.  dsv
Good advice there . I have SS cranks in both my bikes

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2017, 07:41:00 AM »
Update:  I just ordered a 3-piece S&S 4 5/8" flywheel assembly (320-0464).  So, now we all know the base.

What's the next round of advice?  (For example, cylinder/piston kits).

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2017, 09:04:09 AM »
Don't you want the crank balanced to the pistons?
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Offline rbabos

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2017, 09:14:35 AM »
I've got an extra engine sitting in my engine bench.  It's from a 2010 touring.  I'm thinking about making it a project.  I really like big inch engines and would like to feel that again by eventually dropping it into my 2011 Road King.

I have some money, but don't want to spend a ridiculous amount either.  Also, since it's an extra engine I can spread the work out over some period of time.  By big inch, I'm thinking 116" and up.

Advice and recommendations are welcome.

(The current engine on the bench is a Donut Build that I did for a guy before we dropped a 120R in his bike.  I ended up buying the engine off him.)
Here's my take. Hold off until you can slap in an S&S 124. It will be cheaper down the road since whatever you build will only give you short term happiness. How many of us have pissed money away only to find out later there's something better out there. Go as big as you can once and be done with it.
Ron

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2017, 09:48:20 AM »
Don't you want the crank balanced to the pistons?

Good question.  T-Man's site says that his kit is designed to very closely match being on top of an S&S bottom end.  So, it might not be needed if I go with a kit that's already designed for this match.

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2017, 09:51:58 AM »
I've got an extra engine sitting in my engine bench.  It's from a 2010 touring.  I'm thinking about making it a project.  I really like big inch engines and would like to feel that again by eventually dropping it into my 2011 Road King.

I have some money, but don't want to spend a ridiculous amount either.  Also, since it's an extra engine I can spread the work out over some period of time.  By big inch, I'm thinking 116" and up.

Advice and recommendations are welcome.

(The current engine on the bench is a Donut Build that I did for a guy before we dropped a 120R in his bike.  I ended up buying the engine off him.)
Here's my take. Hold off until you can slap in an S&S 124. It will be cheaper down the road since whatever you build will only give you short term happiness. How many of us have pissed money away only to find out later there's something better out there. Go as big as you can once and be done with it.
Ron

Being a spare engine, I can hold off for as long as I like.  Again, this is a bench project.  Because I have the S&S 4 5/8" crank and my JIMS 1408 can only bore casings up to 4 1/8" bore, it looks like it's a no brainer (I think).  124"

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2017, 08:14:53 PM »
So, which cylinder/piston kit is recommended?  T-Man?  S&S?  Will an SE 4.060" cylinder kit work (if I want to make it a 120")?

Offline FXDBI

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2017, 09:40:50 PM »
So, which cylinder/piston kit is recommended?  T-Man?  S&S?  Will an SE 4.060" cylinder kit work (if I want to make it a 120")?

That's going to depend on which rod length you got with the 45/8 S&S crank..  Bob

Offline rageglide

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2017, 10:18:51 PM »
So, which cylinder/piston kit is recommended?  T-Man?  S&S?  Will an SE 4.060" cylinder kit work (if I want to make it a 120")?

HD used a different rod length for the 120" (using 4.060 bore).   You already ordered std 4 5/8 wheels.  I'd go with S&S cylinders and piston kit, OR you could go 126" and pick up from Fuel Moto...

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2017, 02:17:48 AM »
So, which cylinder/piston kit is recommended?  T-Man?  S&S?  Will an SE 4.060" cylinder kit work (if I want to make it a 120")?

That's going to depend on which rod length you got with the 45/8 S&S crank..  Bob


  :up:

You probably have a standard S&S 124" crank coming with the 7.659" rods, and that would commit you to using 4.125" bore for a 124" pistons. You also need to determine the cylinder height that you want to use. S&S offers two heights for TC cases, not sure about others.

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Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2017, 07:48:34 AM »
Thank you for the heads up on the rod length situation.  I didn't realize the rod lengths of the SE flywheels were different than the S&S flywheels (both being 4 5/8" stroke).  But your point is that I need to make sure and use the appropriate cylinder and piston kit.

Offline FXDBI

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2017, 08:01:16 AM »
Thank you for the heads up on the rod length situation.  I didn't realize the rod lengths of the SE flywheels were different than the S&S flywheels (both being 4 5/8" stroke).  But your point is that I need to make sure and use the appropriate cylinder and piston kit.

Yes you need cylinders that are the right length for the rods on the 45/8 crank. So your next step is to find out which rod length you ordered.   Bob

Offline Barrett

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2017, 10:40:20 AM »
When S$S says their 117" kit is for the stock 4.375 stroke are they including their 7.659 rods?
Am I limited to piston choice with my S$S crank?

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2017, 02:08:50 PM »
The S&S flywheels are the 320-0464.  The product literature says that the rods are 7.667".  I'm a bit worried now because the picture on the S&S site shows an older style sprocket shaft (using the comp nut not the bolt style).  Before I bought it, I checked the fitment and it said it fits a 2011 touring.

Did I mess up or might the photo be wrong on the S&S site?

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2017, 04:02:55 PM »

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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2017, 04:35:23 PM »
Regardless of the rod length, you haven't ordered cylinders and pistons yet. So match up the cylinder height and the known compression height of the piston you use with the rod length and base gaskets thickness.
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2017, 06:11:04 PM »
Also, just FYI, my 124" CP pistons and rings weighed 1,120 grams.


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Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2017, 06:14:17 PM »
So, it looks like the 99-06 version has the rod length I found.  Ohio has the correct figure for the 07 and up.

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2017, 06:16:17 PM »
Thanks again, Ohio.

Offline TJAH

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2017, 06:25:44 PM »



https://www.sscycle.com/products/4-five-eighth-inch-stroke-flywheel-assembly-without-sprocket-shaft-bearing-race-for-t124-engines-and-hot-set-up-kit-2007-16-non-balanced-hd-big-twins-and-2006-dyna-models/

[/quote]

From that link you posted, Instructions tab -> page 2 in the  "510-0105_3pieceflywheel_20131014.pdf"
http://assetcloud.roccommerce.net/files/_sscycle/5/3/7/510-0105_3pieceflywheel_20131014.pdf


• S&S produces flywheel assemblies with connecting rods of three
different lengths. Make sure the connecting rods are correct for your
application: (See Picture 1, below)
• 1999–’06 — 7.667" length - marked with one dot
• 2007–up — 7.659" length - not marked (no dot) Tapered wristpin
end for stock pistons - straight wristpin end for performance pistons
• 120R Engines — 7.575" length - marked with two dots
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 06:30:35 PM by TJAH »

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2017, 09:02:27 AM »
Yeah, I have been doing more digging since my last posting and found this too.  Now my stomach is churning hoping that what comes tomorrow in the mail is the flywheel assembly I'm hoping it is.

Cross your fingers.

My confusion of the day...  I've been reading the S&S instructions on their hot setup kit.  S&S is one of the vendors I'm considering getting a cylinder and piston kit from.  In the case boring instructions, it says to do an initial bore of the case spigots of 4.162" to a depth of 2.250".  I do not understand the purpose of this initial bore to the depth of 2.250" when the end final bore can not exceed 1.550".  What is this initial bore doing?  My case boring tool only goes to a depth of around 1.9".

Offline jimlibo

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2017, 09:30:17 AM »
keeps the pistons from smacking the cases around BDC. up to about .020 overbore

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2017, 01:51:01 PM »
keeps the pistons from smacking the cases around BDC. up to about .020 overbore

Thanks.

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2017, 02:03:48 PM »
So if my tool does not bore deep enough, it looks like I'll just have to do a little bit of touch up on the left and right walls with a hand dremmel. 

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2017, 10:51:32 AM »
So, I'm going down the path of the 124" (4 1/8" bore, 4 5/8" stroke).

This is my first engine casing boring for the cylinder spigots, so I'd like to get opinions on what to do about the metal on the bottom side of the bridge.  Leave them there, or cut them off?

(picture 1 of 2)

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2017, 10:52:23 AM »
(picture 2 of 2)

Offline 02FYRFTR

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2017, 02:01:56 PM »
Remove it and smooth the cut lines !!

Offline Doodad

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2017, 04:10:17 PM »
Think I'd skip the confusion and go this route. One stop shopping.

http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=97c50010706800b33ae6fcdf14c8b2f6&topic=101953.0

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #46 on: January 01, 2018, 10:35:48 AM »
Think I'd skip the confusion and go this route. One stop shopping.

http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=97c50010706800b33ae6fcdf14c8b2f6&topic=101953.0


Not sure I understand.  You're not implying that I write a check for my 124" build, are you?  My goal continues to be (each and every year) to perform more and more procedures without leaving my garage.  This year I was able to do the case boring without having to step foot outside my garage.  Actually, I only care about the end result maybe about 50%.  The other 50% is the journey getting there; without that I wouldn't even be doing it.  Sounds not a whole lot different than riding.

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #47 on: January 01, 2018, 11:01:47 AM »
My next question, seeking advice, is about installing 2 or 3 bearing retainer screws (703B screws) into the pinion shaft bearing bore.  My 2011 engine has these but this 2010 engine doesn't. 

I've got the screws on order.  I've been told they are self tapping.  (Didn't remember that when I did the Timken conversion on my 2011 engine.)

1.  How far away from the bearing bore should the center punch be?
2.  What size drill is recommended to perfectly accommodate the self tapping 703B's?
3.  Any other options work better than the retainer screws?

Offline mike jesse

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2018, 12:38:25 PM »
I did not drill/tap for those retaining screws when I did my 124. Non-issue IMHO.

Offline Barrett

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #49 on: January 01, 2018, 12:44:34 PM »
I did not drill/tap for those retaining screws when I did my 124. Non-issue IMHO.

 
There's more than one on this site that came loose and did damage.
Harley wouldn't have put the retainer screws if it wasn't a problem.
 
http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php?topic=91028.msg1064333#msg1064333
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 12:48:42 PM by Barrett »

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #50 on: January 01, 2018, 01:54:03 PM »
I did not drill/tap for those retaining screws when I did my 124. Non-issue IMHO.

 
There's more than one on this site that came loose and did damage.
Harley wouldn't have put the retainer screws if it wasn't a problem.
 
http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php?topic=91028.msg1064333#msg1064333


Exactly why I would prefer to install the screws, because H-D put installed the screws in the 2011 engines.  Unfortunatly, the base I'm using for my 124" is a 2010.

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #51 on: January 01, 2018, 02:01:10 PM »
So, for those who have installed the retaining screws, is there any advice out there (i.e., drill size, measurements from the edge) on how to install them?  The reason I ask is because on my 2011 the heads of the screws don't hang out too far over the bearing bore.  I'd appreciate someone's experience in this area so I don't have to reinvent the wheel.

Offline Barrett

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #52 on: January 01, 2018, 03:09:37 PM »
http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php?topic=86965.0;all
 
I ended up buying the T2 case with a snap ring. For me it was a better route. It already had the Timken bearings and no need to bore the case to go bigger.

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #53 on: January 01, 2018, 03:23:46 PM »
Darkhorse machined a groove in the case and used a retaining ring on my lower end to keep the right side bearing from walking. They also say it's very possible to see the right side walk when installing a Timken on the left, and it not being aligned to the right side. One of many reasons I let professionals like Darkhorse setup a lower end of this type. Not many shops are outfitted to align the two sides.


http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php?topic=87497.msg994989#msg994989

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Offline mike jesse

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #54 on: January 01, 2018, 06:07:49 PM »
That bearing has a .003-.004 in. press fit. It would be a rare one that moves.

Offline speedzter

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #55 on: January 01, 2018, 08:14:01 PM »
Interesting to note the early Dyna 99-05 SE pro crankcases dont have the retaining screws fitted, but the later style SE cases do.
I thought about fitting the screws but didn't, as I had the cases checked for crank bore alignment, and I am using an S&S 3 piece crank.

I figured the bearing has to walk a fair distance to get the retainers, and if this happens, there must be other problems than need fixing anyway.

Online sfmichael

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #56 on: January 01, 2018, 11:01:54 PM »
i would suggest the 117. relatively inexpensive, make lots of power and is very durable, long lasting.  it has it all.  dsv

I was sort of thinking around that displacement too.  I can bore my own cases, perform Timken conversion, and install manual compression releases.  So, there is a lot I can do in my own garage.  I will need to send out for head work.  Yes, all of this is the same regardless on whether it's a 117" or a 124".

I'd like to spend around $3K - $3.5K.

Let's say I did a 124"  Would my dickhead flywheel rods be ok if I got the bottom trued and welded?  Or, would I need to drop a bunch of $$$ on an S&S flywheel assembly?

I've figured it 9 ways from Sunday and that's gonna be tough - probably have to spend at least 1-2K more depending on goals

I'll be very interested to see how this turns out - best of luck to you  :beer: :up:
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Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2018, 08:37:33 AM »
i would suggest the 117. relatively inexpensive, make lots of power and is very durable, long lasting.  it has it all.  dsv

I was sort of thinking around that displacement too.  I can bore my own cases, perform Timken conversion, and install manual compression releases.  So, there is a lot I can do in my own garage.  I will need to send out for head work.  Yes, all of this is the same regardless on whether it's a 117" or a 124".

I'd like to spend around $3K - $3.5K.

Let's say I did a 124"  Would my dickhead flywheel rods be ok if I got the bottom trued and welded?  Or, would I need to drop a bunch of $$$ on an S&S flywheel assembly?

I've figured it 9 ways from Sunday and that's gonna be tough - probably have to spend at least 1-2K more depending on goals

I'll be very interested to see how this turns out - best of luck to you  :beer: :up:

I am going to end up spending about the amount you say.  Throttle body, air filter, and clutch add additional costs.

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #58 on: January 02, 2018, 08:39:12 AM »
So, it looks like I'll have to go it alone with installing the retaining screws.  Thanks for the posts anyway.

Offline FXDBI

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #59 on: January 02, 2018, 09:35:29 AM »
So, it looks like I'll have to go it alone with installing the retaining screws.  Thanks for the posts anyway.

Rule of thumb for a self tapping screw is drill to match the root diameter of the thread. Measure with a caliper at the bottom of thread and you will get the size. Don't go bigger you want only the threads cutting there way in not pushing material so the shank can go in.  That's what I learnt in trade school 45 years ago.   Bob

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #60 on: January 02, 2018, 10:08:58 AM »
So, it looks like I'll have to go it alone with installing the retaining screws.  Thanks for the posts anyway.

Rule of thumb for a self tapping screw is drill to match the root diameter of the thread. Measure with a caliper at the bottom of thread and you will get the size. Don't go bigger you want only the threads cutting there way in not pushing material so the shank can go in.  That's what I learnt in trade school 45 years ago.   Bob

Thanks, Bob.  I'll go with that.  Now the next trick is to get that hole drilled not too far and not to close to the edge of the bearing bore.

BTW, I would prefer to cut a groove and use a retaining ring.  However, I don't have that level of capability.  So, although the screws won't solve a problem with a bearing walking (which you won't know until it actually does), the screws might have a good chance at serving as a safety net in preventing terrible damage to a build that's disgustingly expensive.

Offline FlaHeatWave

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #61 on: January 02, 2018, 01:34:47 PM »
If concerned with bearing "walk", freeze the bearing (in the package) and apply some Red Loctite in the Case,(or outer race) mindful not to get Loctite in the way of any oiling passages,,,

Also apply a bead of Loctite around the outer edge of seals

Always worked well for me :nix:

I'd be leery (I know many have done them successfully, I'm a puss, Murphy was an optimist :SM: ) of those 703B self tapping screws...
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 01:49:26 PM by FlaHeatWave »
'01 FXDWG2 Red 103/6sp  '05 FLHTCSE2 Cherry  '09 FLTRSE3 Yellow 117/DD7

Offline KingofCubes

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #62 on: January 02, 2018, 02:06:58 PM »
i would suggest the 117. relatively inexpensive, make lots of power and is very durable, long lasting.  it has it all.  dsv

I was sort of thinking around that displacement too.  I can bore my own cases, perform Timken conversion, and install manual compression releases.  So, there is a lot I can do in my own garage.  I will need to send out for head work.  Yes, all of this is the same regardless on whether it's a 117" or a 124".

I'd like to spend around $3K - $3.5K.


Let's say I did a 124"  Would my dickhead flywheel rods be ok if I got the bottom trued and welded?  Or, would I need to drop a bunch of $$$ on an S&S flywheel assembly?

I like to add H beam rods, weight transfer machining, and balancing when building a 117.

Offline BVHOG

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2018, 04:25:30 PM »
The holes are drilled VERY close to the bearing bore on the factory cases and are 1/4 20 thread, I would guess there is around 30 thou between the threads and the bearing bore.
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Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #64 on: January 03, 2018, 06:26:32 AM »
If concerned with bearing "walk", freeze the bearing (in the package) and apply some Red Loctite in the Case,(or outer race) mindful not to get Loctite in the way of any oiling passages,,,

Also apply a bead of Loctite around the outer edge of seals

Always worked well for me :nix:

I'd be leery (I know many have done them successfully, I'm a puss, Murphy was an optimist :SM: ) of those 703B self tapping screws...

So, using Loctite (I would have thought green penetrating instead of red) has always been a curiosity of mine when using it on hard pressed components.  Assembly lube (or any lubricant) and Loctite don't play together well.  So, if I coat the OD of the bearing with Clevite and then try to also apply Loctite...how does that work?

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #65 on: January 03, 2018, 06:30:49 AM »
The holes are drilled VERY close to the bearing bore on the factory cases and are 1/4 20 thread, I would guess there is around 30 thou between the threads and the bearing bore.

Exactly, what concerns me.  Getting the holes too close will swell the bearing bore when the self tapping screws are installed.  If the holes are too far from the bore they will only serve as decoration because the heads won't hang over the edge of the bore.

It's been mentioned that folks have installed these screws before.  However, no one has posted any measurements, methods, or advice on doing it.  In other words, doing just right.

Offline Barrett

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #66 on: January 03, 2018, 06:38:18 AM »
The pics don't show but here's another one that walked and did damage.
 
http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php?topic=87579.msg1001852#msg1001852

Offline CarlosGGodfrog

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #67 on: January 03, 2018, 09:29:41 AM »
I just had a 117 build done on 2002 B cases. It had the holes, but no bearing retainer. They have been obsoleted, but we found one at a dealer, and was able to use it. I made a photo copy of it if you are interested. I'll have to look for it.

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2018, 09:41:06 AM »
I just had a 117 build done on 2002 B cases. It had the holes, but no bearing retainer. They have been obsoleted, but we found one at a dealer, and was able to use it. I made a photo copy of it if you are interested. I'll have to look for it.

Heck yes I'm interested! 

Offline FlaHeatWave

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #69 on: January 03, 2018, 11:00:35 AM »
If concerned with bearing "walk", freeze the bearing (in the package) and apply some Red Loctite in the Case,(or outer race) mindful not to get Loctite in the way of any oiling passages,,,

Also apply a bead of Loctite around the outer edge of seals

Always worked well for me :nix:

I'd be leery (I know many have done them successfully, I'm a puss, Murphy was an optimist :SM: ) of those 703B self tapping screws...

So, using Loctite (I would have thought green penetrating instead of red) has always been a curiosity of mine when using it on hard pressed components.  Assembly lube (or any lubricant) and Loctite don't play together well.  So, if I coat the OD of the bearing with Clevite and then try to also apply Loctite...how does that work?

I have only used red or blue Loctite, no experience with any of the other colors...

Bearing in the freezer overnight, and having the Case at room temperature (or above) set up for immediate assembly is key, all "clean and dry" apply Loctite to act as lube as Bearing is installed... Bearings have always pretty much dropped right in...
   
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Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #70 on: January 03, 2018, 12:02:27 PM »
Ok, so what you're saying is to press in the bearing dry, with the exemption of the Loctite which offers some lubrication.

The green is very thin and has penetrating properties.  The way you use it is to do the press work first to it's final placement, then apply the green and let it penetrate in.  Of course, the red and blue are applied ahead of time.  Not after, like the green.

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #71 on: January 03, 2018, 12:09:09 PM »
The pics don't show but here's another one that walked and did damage.
 
http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php?topic=87579.msg1001852#msg1001852


A question about the tech forum notes in this posting.  The tech notes talk about the "case height reduced for clearance on area surrounding bearing".  Does this mean that the height the bearing bore protrudes out is not as much as the 2010?

It also talks about "a spacer available for the service tool to install the bearing to the correct height".  Any information about this spacer and what it's actually doing"?

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #72 on: January 03, 2018, 01:18:23 PM »
So, I've changed my mind.  I've decided to pursue getting a snap ring groove machined into the right hand casing in the pinion bearing bore.  I don't like the idea of the bearing (if it happens to) moving out that far to the retaining screws.

Offline FlaHeatWave

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #73 on: January 03, 2018, 01:24:43 PM »
Ok, so what you're saying is to press in the bearing dry, with the exemption of the Loctite which offers some lubrication.

The green is very thin and has penetrating properties.  The way you use it is to do the press work first to it's final placement, then apply the green and let it penetrate in.  Of course, the red and blue are applied ahead of time.  Not after, like the green.

I used red because it gives a stronger bond and is more heat resistant  :nix:
'01 FXDWG2 Red 103/6sp  '05 FLHTCSE2 Cherry  '09 FLTRSE3 Yellow 117/DD7

Offline FSG

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #74 on: January 03, 2018, 02:22:14 PM »
So, I've changed my mind.  I've decided to pursue getting a snap ring groove machined into the right hand casing in the pinion bearing bore.  I don't like the idea of the bearing (if it happens to) moving out that far to the retaining screws.

I'd put a circular spacer up against the bearing and have the retaining screw heads against it

The bearing retaining plate is obsolete, yes available AM, eBay, etc, BUT it's unusable unless your case has the mounting area holes for it.






Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #75 on: January 03, 2018, 05:40:06 PM »
FSG, I thought I was crazy or losing my mind or something.  But I was telling my local Indy about such a retaining plate that I thought I had seen in the past while inside a cam chest.  I was not sure if I was dreaming it up, but this is what I was looking for.  Thanks!!!  I'll try to find one out there.  This would be so easy to install in the casing because the position of the bolts is not that critical. 

Offline FSG

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #76 on: January 03, 2018, 05:56:11 PM »
Quote
This would be so easy to install in the casing because the position of the bolts is not that critical.

if there's no real estate in the case for the screws to go using one of these plates then just drill new holes in the plate

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #77 on: January 04, 2018, 05:55:59 AM »
Quote
This would be so easy to install in the casing because the position of the bolts is not that critical.

if there's no real estate in the case for the screws to go using one of these plates then just drill new holes in the plate

Exactly what I was thinking too.  I could drill anywhere in those plates and not have to worry about getting too close to the edge of the bearing bore.

Now, my only challenge is to find one of those plates.

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #78 on: January 04, 2018, 05:58:12 AM »
Maybe just make your own plate.
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Offline HotRodShovel

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #79 on: January 04, 2018, 06:47:40 AM »
Think I'd skip the confusion and go this route. One stop shopping.

http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=97c50010706800b33ae6fcdf14c8b2f6&topic=101953.0


 My goal continues to be (each and every year) to perform more and more procedures without leaving my garage.  This year I was able to do the case boring without having to step foot outside my garage.  Actually, I only care about the end result maybe about 50%.  The other 50% is the journey getting there; without that I wouldn't even be doing it.  Sounds not a whole lot different than riding.


Man, I totally get that, Les.  My hat is off to you for getting as far as you have.  I would love to add a lathe and start building a collection of machines in my 'shop' but thats some big $$.  However I agree for those of us who do not have the technical knowledge and/or correct machinery ...send it out, got to.  Kirby has been an incredible help to me with my builds but there is nothing so satisfying as doing it all with your own hands.  Stay the course, Les. 
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 06:54:54 AM by hotrodshovel »
Sometimes life is like trying to share a sandwich with Rosie O'Donnell. 
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Offline FXDBI

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #80 on: January 04, 2018, 08:31:26 AM »
Maybe just make your own plate.

 :agree:  That would be a very easy piece to fabricate with minimal tools required. Nice little piece of SS to keep the thickness down.  Bob

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #81 on: January 04, 2018, 08:50:14 AM »
It might be kind of cool to have one of these that is a complete circle with a thicker part that hangs over and into the bearing bore just enough to get within 1/32" from the outside race of the roller bearing.  The item could have three holes and could be positioned in any orientation for the drilled holes (can pick where you want to drill).

Offline FXDBI

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #82 on: January 04, 2018, 08:56:39 AM »
It might be kind of cool to have one of these that is a complete circle with a thicker part that hangs over and into the bearing bore just enough to get within 1/32" from the outside race of the roller bearing.  The item could have three holes and could be positioned in any orientation for the drilled holes (can pick where you want to drill).

Easy enough to make on a lathe from some round stock bore it and machine a step for the recess then part it off. What ever floats your boat.  Bob

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #83 on: January 04, 2018, 10:28:30 AM »
It might be kind of cool to have one of these that is a complete circle with a thicker part that hangs over and into the bearing bore just enough to get within 1/32" from the outside race of the roller bearing.  The item could have three holes and could be positioned in any orientation for the drilled holes (can pick where you want to drill).

Easy enough to make on a lathe from some round stock bore it and machine a step for the recess then part it off. What ever floats your boat.  Bob

The advantage of these type of retainers is that the builder would not need any fancy machining processes for the groove.  Only to drill and tap three screw holes right in the middle of the bearing bore; could be done by anyone with simple hand tools.

Offline mike jesse

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #84 on: January 04, 2018, 11:56:15 AM »
If you want to use a full circle retainer plate, just use a Small Block Ford cam retainer plate.

I just was out in the garage for a check fit on a spare case. Plenty of meat in case for this.

Grind off the oil transfer slot, drill/tap your holes and you are in business. I'll send you one if you want it.

https://performanceparts.ford.com/images/part/full/M-6269-A302.jpg

Offline FSG

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #85 on: January 04, 2018, 12:14:32 PM »
make sure the positioning of any screws isn't going to have the protruding heads interfere with the oil pump

Offline mike jesse

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #86 on: January 04, 2018, 12:36:43 PM »
Low head button head screws.

I suggest not using a fine pitch thread either.

Thread sizes under 5/16 in. simply don't have enough material purchase to clamp effectively in cast aluminum.

Use a course pitch thread for these smaller sizes.

Offline Darkhorse

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #87 on: January 04, 2018, 01:35:29 PM »
Just an FYI - we have those B-model retaining plates if you would choose to use them for $5.55 retail (we use retaining plates in all B-models) although the best way for 03' - 12' A-models (our opinion) is to cut a groove for retaining clip.  We have been utilizing a clip we engineered for cases quite a while ago with our Timken conversion sleeve without failure, when we perform Timken upgrades on A-models.  Later cases with button head allens do not have enough area to install groove or clip, but so far we have not witnessed issue with OE button heads.  H-D knew there was a failure rate and that is why they ended up going back to a retention method but engineered crankcase to use less aluminum and had to go that direction.

You will see more lateral forces on the pinion side main bearing when they are converted to Timkens as the left side is then captured putting all the lateral force to right side.  It happens on non-upgraded crankcases also, otherwise H-D would not have added a process and parts to their crankcases. Not nearly as often, but run-outs can be a major player along with steel inserts that have come loose in crankcase.

Thanks, John
Darkhorse Crankworks


Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #88 on: January 04, 2018, 01:59:58 PM »
Great info John, thanks for posting here.

 :up: :up: For HTT and the pros that take time to post for us.
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Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #89 on: January 04, 2018, 07:22:06 PM »
It looks like the b-motor retainers use the same screws as the piston jets (68042-99).  Those seem kind of small for that application.

Offline CarlosGGodfrog

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #90 on: January 05, 2018, 07:07:31 AM »
I just had a 117 build done on 2002 B cases. It had the holes, but no bearing retainer. They have been obsoleted, but we found one at a dealer, and was able to use it. I made a photo copy of it if you are interested. I'll have to look for it.

Heck yes I'm interested!

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Offline FSG

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #91 on: January 05, 2018, 07:36:33 AM »
It looks like the b-motor retainers use the same screws as the piston jets (68042-99).  Those seem kind of small for that application.

68042-99      SCREW NO. 8-32 X 3/8   TORX HEAD

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #92 on: January 09, 2018, 06:11:02 AM »
Currently, I'm working with a machinist friend to develop a one-piece plate/insert that would be held with five #10-24 flathead screws as a preventative device to keep the pinion bearing from walking.  The device is similar to a Timken conversion insert, but has a 2 - 3 thou clearance slip fit and of course does not go in very deep into the bearing bore (planning for about a 1/32" gap between bearing wall and device).  The flat plate portion will circular, go to the outside of the bearing bore, and need to be shaped because of the irregular shape of the bearing bore.  Naturally, holes will need to be drilled and tapped using an extended longer #25 drill bit.  I will post pictures if I end up going this route after I perform my final modifications to the device and first hand observe how it makes me feel about using it.

On a slightly different note, one thing I noticed is that the Timken bearing set middle cone spacer ring (not used when doing the conversion insert) fits perfectly around the wall of the stock pinion bearing.  Since my right case half is at the machinist I can't tell if the thickness of the spacer ring is too thick (would stick up past the edge of the bearing bore) to potentially be used with screws and a couple of modified 00-02 Softail bearing retainers.  Specifically, getting two Softail retainers, modifying them, using the Timken spacer, and having two modified half circle Softail retainer plates hold the Timken spacer in place and against the outer bearing wall.

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #93 on: January 09, 2018, 05:43:58 PM »
So, here is what I'm starting with.  I've got some work to do with shaping the OD of the flat and locating the five screw holes.

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #94 on: January 09, 2018, 05:45:49 PM »
The ID of the device fits loosely around the bearing.  I don't have the lefty bearing in yet, so we'll when that gets here.

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #95 on: January 09, 2018, 05:46:53 PM »
The back of the device.

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #96 on: January 09, 2018, 05:47:39 PM »
The front of the device.

Offline FSG

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #97 on: January 09, 2018, 06:44:01 PM »
 :up:

Offline mike jesse

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #98 on: January 10, 2018, 11:08:20 AM »
You may need to skim cut that surface the retainer sits on in the case. Just to make sure it's flat.

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #99 on: January 10, 2018, 01:22:00 PM »
You may need to skim cut that surface the retainer sits on in the case. Just to make sure it's flat.

My machinist friend brought that up too, so I would not mind a discussion on this topic.  I'll start...

I declined his recommendation.  The reason is that one of the main things I'm wanting to accomplish with this device is to enable a person to install it without any special machining equipment and/or machining skills.  In other words, be able to install the device with normal tools found in the typical Harley garage (drill, tap, etc).  Another point...although the device might not sit perfectly flat (like a Timken insert on the machined surface of the left side casing), I think it will still work well.  The reason I say that is because if you look at the Softail retaining plate, it only sits on one side of the bearing.  It doesn't even go all the way around.  The device goes all the way around and actually acts as a much better bearing stop.  So, wherever it makes contact with the bearing (if it does walk), that will be it; the bearing will stop moving.  This is the reason I'm planning on using five 10-24 flathead screws, spaced apart as evenly as I can possibly get them.  Also, using #10 screws to not weaken the bearing bore wall too much (i.e., using 1/4"-20 screws).  Bottom line: If I was going to have the engine casing machined, I would have gone with the groove and big old snap ring.  (In fact, I bought one of those when I was looking at all the possible options.)  My goal is to create something that can assure the bearing won't walk out, and is something folks can do in their garage without any machining.

My question is this...  Where the device sits will not be perfectly flat, only fairly flat.  With five screws I don't think the device will vibrate and stress the screws and break them.  I've not yet decided on 10-24 1/2" or going a bit deeper with 10-24 3/4" (note the device takes up some of the screw depth).

I appreciate discussion on this because I'm trying something new (to me) here and with something new, you never know how it's going to turn out until it's been life tested for 20,000 miles.  I'm trying to get it right the first time by spending a huge amount of time thinking about it.

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #100 on: January 10, 2018, 02:13:43 PM »
Another concept I had about the device is that it stops the bearing from walking pretty much immediately after the bearing gets a notion to walk; not like the retaining screws or the Softail plate which do not stop the walking until the edge of the bearing bore.  Keeping the bearing close (stopping it as soon as it starts walking) to the flywheel might minimize the effects of runout causing the bearing to walk.

BTW, I know you can see from the pictures, but just to note that the device is made of steel not aluminum. 

Offline FSG

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #101 on: January 10, 2018, 02:45:50 PM »
Quote
I'm planning on using five 10-24 flathead screws

I'd use a number that would easily divide into 360, like 4, 6 or 8   :teeth:

Offline mike jesse

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #102 on: January 10, 2018, 02:58:27 PM »
I suggest using a thread forming tap VS the standard thread cutting tap, the thread will be stronger. These smaller size threaded holes need all the help they can get.
I would reconsider machining the face of the bore. JMHO.

I like your retainer idea. 

Offline kd

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #103 on: January 10, 2018, 04:14:23 PM »
A couple of thoughts...... Cut the ring almost all of the way through in 2 places (maybe drill a hole at the inboard end of the slot) and mark one of 4 screw holes (I am agreeing with FSG on the reduced holes) as say the 12 o'clock position. That will allow it to be removed and replaced in the same position. My Bandit clutch steels are sliced many times part way through to prevent warping and do just fine under all that stress.  :wink:  The second though is a gasket to cussion the mounting to any irregular casting flaws.   

Les's point about stopping the bearing from even starting to migrate seems to have merit and could be handled with a small shim pac to stack under the plate giving contact or maybe a couple thou clearance for expansion.

Back to you now.  :wink:
KD

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #104 on: January 10, 2018, 05:59:16 PM »
My progress on the shaping so far, using an ultra high tech tool.

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Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #105 on: January 10, 2018, 06:03:00 PM »
I suggest using a thread forming tap VS the standard thread cutting tap, the thread will be stronger. These smaller size threaded holes need all the help they can get.
I would reconsider machining the face of the bore. JMHO.

I like your retainer idea.

Ok, I'll look into the thread shaping tool.  Also, I do agree that shaping the bore is the right thing to do.  Unfortunately, it defeats the purpose of goals of this device.  Must be done with normal hand tools.

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #106 on: January 10, 2018, 06:03:48 PM »
Quote
I'm planning on using five 10-24 flathead screws

I'd use a number that would easily divide into 360, like 4, 6 or 8   :teeth:

Now why didn't I think of that?!   :smilep:

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #107 on: January 10, 2018, 06:07:24 PM »
My progress on the shaping so far, using an ultra high tech tool.

I now need to blend in for the two cam reliefs and perhaps a couple more spots to make sure the casing radius is not touching the device.

Offline mike jesse

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #108 on: January 10, 2018, 06:28:16 PM »
Cam lobe clear it?

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #109 on: January 10, 2018, 06:49:10 PM »
More progress on the shaping (for cams) and approximate bolt pattern.  I balanced five 1/4x20's to show you what I've got in mind for the bolt pattern.  Again, I'll be using the 10-24 flathead

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #110 on: January 10, 2018, 06:51:12 PM »
Cam lobe clear it?

I'm not done yet.  I figured six places to shape the device.  Two for the cams, two to the right, and the other two at the bottom yet to come.  (Just posted the picture of the cam relief shaping.)

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #111 on: January 10, 2018, 07:28:06 PM »
All done except for the hard part.  Enough for tonight.

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #112 on: January 10, 2018, 07:33:54 PM »
I'd cheat and just do flats after all it'll only go in one way

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Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #113 on: January 11, 2018, 08:25:20 AM »
I'd cheat and just do flats after all it'll only go in one way

(Attachment Link)

Damn it, FSG!  Now you're going to make me go back in the garage and consider doing it your way.  Not because it's cheating (like you say) but rather easier to fabricate a repeatable device. 

Thanks for the suggestion.  If I modify, I'll repost a picture.

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #114 on: January 11, 2018, 10:43:50 AM »
Anyone know what years the A motors did not have some sort of retaining method?  I know my 2001 had a circular retaining ring, and my 2011 has the screws.  But what years in between then did not have anything?

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #115 on: January 11, 2018, 11:12:59 AM »
FSG, when examining the device is real life, the angle cuts intrude on the flexibility of bolt position and also the one on the right comes really too close to the retaining part of the device.  I know it takes a bit more time to make the custom cuts, but it was not that bad.  Maybe an hour sitting over the vice.  The custom cuts were worth it because it gives me a lot of latitude in terms of bolt locations and also still provides lots of metal meat on the right side were things get the most tight.

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #116 on: January 13, 2018, 11:41:12 PM »
Location of the six 8-32 bolt holes.

« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 01:30:52 AM by FSG »

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #117 on: January 13, 2018, 11:45:29 PM »
Countersinks

« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 01:19:44 AM by FSG »

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #118 on: January 13, 2018, 11:48:46 PM »
I can't do anymore.  Best I can do.  Done working on it.

I'm getting about 10 threads on the 8-32 screws.  What sort of torque should I put on them?


« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 01:23:58 AM by FSG »

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #119 on: January 14, 2018, 01:28:31 AM »
 :up:  good job

I'd go 15 to 18 inch pounds, dont forget the loctite

Offline No Cents

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #120 on: January 14, 2018, 02:46:03 AM »
 nice work les!   :up:
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Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #121 on: January 14, 2018, 03:28:59 AM »
:up:  good job

I'd go 15 to 18 inch pounds, dont forget the loctite

I did not look it up but that sounds high for cast aluminium that does not have threads 2x the bolt diameter. I also would not use dry specs for bolts installed with loctite. I would double check before going that tight, not trying to be a know it all just would hate to see one stripped after all this great work.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 03:53:05 AM by 1FSTRK »
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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #122 on: January 14, 2018, 05:11:15 AM »
A couple of thoughts...... Cut the ring almost all of the way through in 2 places (maybe drill a hole at the inboard end of the slot) and mark one of 4 screw holes (I am agreeing with FSG on the reduced holes) as say the 12 o'clock position. That will allow it to be removed and replaced in the same position. My Bandit clutch steels are sliced many times part way through to prevent warping and do just fine under all that stress.  :wink:  The second though is a gasket to cussion the mounting to any irregular casting flaws.   

Les's point about stopping the bearing from even starting to migrate seems to have merit and could be handled with a small shim pac to stack under the plate giving contact or maybe a couple thou clearance for expansion.

Back to you now.  :wink:

I would definitely consider this.  mounting a steel plate on a cast aluminum surface it will not conform to the surface & over time will spit those screws out. JMO.
This was a problem with the Timken conversion if you didn't get it perfectly flat on installation. A lot of people blamed the screws but the real reason was the installation.

Offline FSG

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #123 on: January 14, 2018, 03:57:03 PM »
:up:  good job

I'd go 15 to 18 inch pounds, dont forget the loctite

I did not look it up but that sounds high for cast aluminium that does not have threads 2x the bolt diameter. I also would not use dry specs for bolts installed with loctite. I would double check before going that tight, not trying to be a know it all just would hate to see one stripped after all this great work.

fair call, they aren't holding the cylinder head on, so as long as loctite is used so they don't back-out then finger tight to a few in lbs will get the job done

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #124 on: January 15, 2018, 07:34:32 AM »
A couple of thoughts...... Cut the ring almost all of the way through in 2 places (maybe drill a hole at the inboard end of the slot) and mark one of 4 screw holes (I am agreeing with FSG on the reduced holes) as say the 12 o'clock position. That will allow it to be removed and replaced in the same position. My Bandit clutch steels are sliced many times part way through to prevent warping and do just fine under all that stress.  :wink:  The second though is a gasket to cussion the mounting to any irregular casting flaws.   

Les's point about stopping the bearing from even starting to migrate seems to have merit and could be handled with a small shim pac to stack under the plate giving contact or maybe a couple thou clearance for expansion.

Back to you now.  :wink:

I would definitely consider this.  mounting a steel plate on a cast aluminum surface it will not conform to the surface & over time will spit those screws out. JMO.
This was a problem with the Timken conversion if you didn't get it perfectly flat on installation. A lot of people blamed the screws but the real reason was the installation.

Not ignoring your posting...just thinking about it.

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #125 on: January 15, 2018, 07:43:22 AM »
:up:  good job

I'd go 15 to 18 inch pounds, dont forget the loctite

I did not look it up but that sounds high for cast aluminium that does not have threads 2x the bolt diameter. I also would not use dry specs for bolts installed with loctite. I would double check before going that tight, not trying to be a know it all just would hate to see one stripped after all this great work.

fair call, they aren't holding the cylinder head on, so as long as loctite is used so they don't back-out then finger tight to a few in lbs will get the job done

The instructions for the Timken sleeve says to torque the six 8-32 screws to 25-30 in-lbs.  Thoughts?

On a slightly different topic, after what Larry said I'm considering using Loctite 620 retaining compound on my six 8-32 screws like is used for the Timken sleeve screws.

I'm also considering hanging the device on the wall with a little sign under it "Ford Edsel", and taking my chances that the bearing won't walk.  Yes, I'm getting a bit apprehensive, but have not yet thrown in the towel.  I'm still staring at it and thinking.

Offline CarlosGGodfrog

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #126 on: January 15, 2018, 08:04:11 AM »
A couple of thoughts...... Cut the ring almost all of the way through in 2 places (maybe drill a hole at the inboard end of the slot) and mark one of 4 screw holes (I am agreeing with FSG on the reduced holes) as say the 12 o'clock position. That will allow it to be removed and replaced in the same position. My Bandit clutch steels are sliced many times part way through to prevent warping and do just fine under all that stress.  :wink:  The second though is a gasket to cussion the mounting to any irregular casting flaws.   

Les's point about stopping the bearing from even starting to migrate seems to have merit and could be handled with a small shim pac to stack under the plate giving contact or maybe a couple thou clearance for expansion.

Back to you now.  :wink:

I would definitely consider this.  mounting a steel plate on a cast aluminum surface it will not conform to the surface & over time will spit those screws out. JMO.
This was a problem with the Timken conversion if you didn't get it perfectly flat on installation. A lot of people blamed the screws but the real reason was the installation.

Make a round flat and lap the surface flat ? Fly cutter (small) to true the surface ??

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #127 on: January 15, 2018, 09:41:50 AM »
A couple of thoughts...... Cut the ring almost all of the way through in 2 places (maybe drill a hole at the inboard end of the slot) and mark one of 4 screw holes (I am agreeing with FSG on the reduced holes) as say the 12 o'clock position. That will allow it to be removed and replaced in the same position. My Bandit clutch steels are sliced many times part way through to prevent warping and do just fine under all that stress.  :wink:  The second though is a gasket to cussion the mounting to any irregular casting flaws.   

Les's point about stopping the bearing from even starting to migrate seems to have merit and could be handled with a small shim pac to stack under the plate giving contact or maybe a couple thou clearance for expansion.

Back to you now.  :wink:

I would definitely consider this.  mounting a steel plate on a cast aluminum surface it will not conform to the surface & over time will spit those screws out. JMO.
This was a problem with the Timken conversion if you didn't get it perfectly flat on installation. A lot of people blamed the screws but the real reason was the installation.

Make a round flat and lap the surface flat ? Fly cutter (small) to true the surface ??

Lapping.  Exactly the idea that popped into my head this morning as I was staring at the device and engine casing at the kitchen table.  I think what Larry is saying is that the hard steel against the soft (bumpy) aluminum will (because of vibration) eventually pound down the tiny high spots in the aluminum, thus loosening the device by creating a tiny gap.

Having enough flat aluminum to provide enough push back on the device might be the answer.  In other words, this appears to be the design of the Timken insert.  It's not a matter of the machined surface, but rather providing enough flattened aluminum to push back on the steel Timken sleeve...which the machined surface provides.

I'm now running through my pee brain a method to lapping.  I might need to take some of the fancy shaping off the device to get enough spin using thumb pressure.  The thought being that we "conform" valves to valve seats by lapping.  Maybe I can get that device to conform to the casing enough by lapping too.

Thanks for suggesting the lapping idea.

Offline mike jesse

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #128 on: January 15, 2018, 12:07:11 PM »
Take it to your machinist friend that built the retainer and have him skim cut the surface to clean up.

DONE!!

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #129 on: January 15, 2018, 02:27:14 PM »
Take it to your machinist friend that built the retainer and have him skim cut the surface to clean up.

DONE!!

I understand what you're saying.  But as mentioned before, it's not really about getting it done.  It's a spare engine so I've got plenty of time.  If it's possible, I'm trying to create a device that the home mechanic can install without needing machining work or equipment.  Is it possible?  Don't know yet; still trying to work something out.

Offline mike jesse

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #130 on: January 15, 2018, 02:42:48 PM »
 :banghead: :banghead: I'm done.

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #131 on: January 15, 2018, 05:12:17 PM »
:banghead: :banghead: I'm done.

Understand, and thank you for the advice on using the forming tap.  Exactly what I ended up doing, but I didn't use the one out of my Timken sleeve installation tool.  That one is oversized (+.0025).  I bought a regular 8-32 forming tap for this project.  Again, thanks for the help!

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #132 on: January 17, 2018, 06:33:43 AM »
This is what it looks like after the lapping.  The rough surface feels a lot smoother.  Only thing I'm concerned about now it being careful to not strip the threads by too much torque.

Again, thanks to all for your replies on the device.  Your comments were very helpful.

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #133 on: January 21, 2018, 05:43:20 AM »
Set of pictures on the final steps of the bearing retainer.  Installed bearing...

« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 11:04:47 AM by FSG »

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #134 on: January 21, 2018, 05:44:23 AM »
Align the retainer.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 11:06:28 AM by FSG »

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #135 on: January 21, 2018, 05:47:18 AM »
Installed the retainer using the 8-32 1/2" long flathead screws.  I used Loctite 620 on the screws and torqued them to 30 in-lbs. each.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 11:08:19 AM by FSG »

Offline Durwood

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #136 on: January 21, 2018, 05:52:25 AM »
Nice work Les.

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #137 on: January 21, 2018, 11:09:04 AM »
 :up:

Offline 1workinman

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #138 on: January 21, 2018, 04:00:36 PM »
 :up:

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #139 on: January 27, 2018, 04:19:09 PM »
looks good  :up:
Colorado Springs, CO.

Offline N-gin

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #140 on: January 28, 2018, 12:10:51 AM »
Nice. Lot better than 2 or three screws in the edge of race
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Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #141 on: May 11, 2018, 08:50:40 AM »
Just to close the loop on this long journey winter build, I got the bike back from the tuner.

141 hp, 148 torque

Offline Hilly13

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #142 on: May 11, 2018, 01:35:37 PM »
Hi Les, just read through this thread and I got to say I admire your tenacity, job well done and good numbers to finish it off  :up:
Just because its said don't make it so

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #143 on: May 12, 2018, 04:28:30 AM »
Just to close the loop on this long journey winter build, I got the bike back from the tuner.

141 hp, 148 torque

 :up: :up:
How about a run down of the rest of the build, we never got past where you finished the bearing retainer?
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Online sfmichael

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #144 on: May 12, 2018, 08:55:08 AM »
Just to close the loop on this long journey winter build, I got the bike back from the tuner.

141 hp, 148 torque



excellent results les...congrats  :beer:

give us the rest of the story...  :pop:
Colorado Springs, CO.

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #145 on: May 12, 2018, 06:01:08 PM »
Just to close the loop on this long journey winter build, I got the bike back from the tuner.

141 hp, 148 torque

 :up: :up:
How about a run down of the rest of the build, we never got past where you finished the bearing retainer?

Oh, shit.  I didn't even realize I did not share about the rest of the build.

124" (4 5/8" stroke, 4 1/8" bore)
T-Man cylinders and pistons (5cc dome, based on his process of boring raw S&S jugs and tight fitting his pistons made by Weisco)
T-Man performance pro touring heads (2" intake valves, 1.8" intake ports, and that cool optional breather setup)
T-Man 660 PS cams, S&S fancy blue oil pump and plate.
HPI 62mm fuel injection with 6.2 gps injectors and V2 air filter (with that cool velocity stack)
All the other hoopla (limited lifters, the long S&S adjustable pushrods, S&S roller rockers, rocker lockers)
Oh, yeah.  My first grudge box tranny bearing installation
SE full clutch plate stack with the SE VPC
Tuning module is the SE Super Pro Tuner
What am I forgetting...oh, yeah.  Boss Boarzilla (those ninnies stopped making the Boarzilla cut!)

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #146 on: May 12, 2018, 06:11:53 PM »
Another part of the story is the case boring.  I feel good about this one because I can now bore cases without leaving my garage.  I started with the JIMS tool, but not sure if you know, that tool just don't measure up...literally.  It can not bore deep enough.  I had it modified (lengthened) by a local machine shop.  Now, it can perform the 2.250" depth piston bore.

The cold cranking compression came out exactly where TR and I agreed on.  Measurement at 125 miles showed 207.  Warm cranking compression at 500 miles showed 225 front and 220 rear.

Before the dyno tuning (dyno graph showed 130 hp) I loaded the bike up with all the weight I could put on it to simulate 2-up riding.  It was the first time I've pegged the speedo at 120.  First time because I don't like to "hang around" for too long after 100; makes me nervous to linger up there.  You get the point I'm trying to make.  I'm sure with this extra bump after the tuning, it's able to rocket up there even faster.  Perhaps only on special occasions. 

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #147 on: May 12, 2018, 06:18:14 PM »
Hi Les, just read through this thread and I got to say I admire your tenacity, job well done and good numbers to finish it off  :up:

Thanks.  I have to say that I can't recall being in the Frankenstein Dungan (garage) when I've had more fun, for so long, at such intensity, at such fear, at such desperation, at such excitement, at such learning, at...

What a high!   :beer:

Offline kd

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #148 on: May 12, 2018, 07:43:47 PM »
Very nice Les. Will you be posting your dyno sheet? I'd love to see the curve (and AFR if available). I'm sure others will too.  :beer:
KD

Offline No Cents

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #149 on: May 12, 2018, 08:39:25 PM »
 nice job les!   :up:
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #150 on: May 13, 2018, 06:10:37 AM »
Very nice Les. Will you be posting your dyno sheet? I'd love to see the curve (and AFR if available). I'm sure others will too.  :beer:

This is the chart I got from Roeders showing the results of the tune.


Offline koko3052

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #151 on: May 13, 2018, 07:08:25 AM »
 :up: Good job les...hang onto your liscence.  :hug:

Offline kd

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #152 on: May 13, 2018, 07:24:06 AM »
Ya, I second that.  :up:
KD

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #153 on: May 13, 2018, 07:28:52 AM »
Just to close the loop on this long journey winter build, I got the bike back from the tuner.

141 hp, 148 torque

 :up: :up:
How about a run down of the rest of the build, we never got past where you finished the bearing retainer?

Oh, shit.  I didn't even realize I did not share about the rest of the build.

124" (4 5/8" stroke, 4 1/8" bore)
T-Man cylinders and pistons (5cc dome, based on his process of boring raw S&S jugs and tight fitting his pistons made by Weisco)
T-Man performance pro touring heads (2" intake valves, 1.8" intake ports, and that cool optional breather setup)
T-Man 660 PS cams, S&S fancy blue oil pump and plate.
HPI 62mm fuel injection with 6.2 gps injectors and V2 air filter (with that cool velocity stack)
All the other hoopla (limited lifters, the long S&S adjustable pushrods, S&S roller rockers, rocker lockers)
Oh, yeah.  My first grudge box tranny bearing installation
SE full clutch plate stack with the SE VPC
Tuning module is the SE Super Pro Tuner
What am I forgetting...oh, yeah.  Boss Boarzilla (those ninnies stopped making the Boarzilla cut!)

WOW
First this list and I just saw the dyno sheet you posted somebody had a great winter!
When you get a minute that you are not out riding post a pic.
Great job
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Offline Hilly13

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #154 on: May 13, 2018, 04:26:03 PM »
Hi Les, just read through this thread and I got to say I admire your tenacity, job well done and good numbers to finish it off  :up:

Thanks.  I have to say that I can't recall being in the Frankenstein Dungan (garage) when I've had more fun, for so long, at such intensity, at such fear, at such desperation, at such excitement, at such learning, at...

What a high!   :beer:
New stuff and trepidation lol, love your work 👍
Just because its said don't make it so

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #155 on: May 14, 2018, 06:00:55 AM »
Just to close the loop on this long journey winter build, I got the bike back from the tuner.

141 hp, 148 torque

 :up: :up:
How about a run down of the rest of the build, we never got past where you finished the bearing retainer?

Oh, shit.  I didn't even realize I did not share about the rest of the build.

124" (4 5/8" stroke, 4 1/8" bore)
T-Man cylinders and pistons (5cc dome, based on his process of boring raw S&S jugs and tight fitting his pistons made by Weisco)
T-Man performance pro touring heads (2" intake valves, 1.8" intake ports, and that cool optional breather setup)
T-Man 660 PS cams, S&S fancy blue oil pump and plate.
HPI 62mm fuel injection with 6.2 gps injectors and V2 air filter (with that cool velocity stack)
All the other hoopla (limited lifters, the long S&S adjustable pushrods, S&S roller rockers, rocker lockers)
Oh, yeah.  My first grudge box tranny bearing installation
SE full clutch plate stack with the SE VPC
Tuning module is the SE Super Pro Tuner
What am I forgetting...oh, yeah.  Boss Boarzilla (those ninnies stopped making the Boarzilla cut!)

WOW
First this list and I just saw the dyno sheet you posted somebody had a great winter!
When you get a minute that you are not out riding post a pic.
Great job

Ok, I'll post some overall and some closeup pics tonight.  And, yes.  It was one of the best winters yet.  So much so that the take out 103" that I built a couple of years ago (sitting in the engine bench with a garbage bag over it to protect it from dust) is "speaking" to me.  Those voices in my head!  It's not my fault!  lol

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #156 on: May 14, 2018, 03:04:39 PM »
A look at my bridge bolt work.

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #157 on: May 14, 2018, 03:08:02 PM »
Because I got the optional T-Man breathers, I replaced the hollow breather bolts with solid bolts.  Now my engine cannot puke on the cam cover.  Those holes are totally blocked off.

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #158 on: May 14, 2018, 03:08:55 PM »
Interesting what TR does with the quench area.

Offline koko3052

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #159 on: May 14, 2018, 06:04:16 PM »
Thanks for the pix les. :up:
I had a different take on the bridge bolt. Because I had to do some welding on my case, broken out inner primary bolt boss, I welded up the area that you milled out. Built the weld out to the rounded areas around the cyl. studs. Figured that the cyl studs needed all the meat that could be provided. Then milled it flat & then milled a recess around the 1/4” bolt hole on each end. Using 1/4” grade 8 flanged head bolt & flanged head nut with o-rings under each to seal.
Just didn’t feel right about using a bolt that had been milled triangular, plus tapping deeper threads. Just didn’t like.....altho there are probably thousands out there running fine. :nix:
PS... don’t have a clue how to post pics. :cry:

Offline Geraldsd

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #160 on: May 14, 2018, 07:42:25 PM »
Thanks Les for sharing this.  It was really great to read and see how well it turned out!👍👍👍
2014 FLHX, S&S 110" kit, CR-575 Cams, HDSP Heads
10.5/1, D&D Fat Cat, Stock TB

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #161 on: May 15, 2018, 05:14:26 AM »
Thanks for the pix les. :up:
I had a different take on the bridge bolt. Because I had to do some welding on my case, broken out inner primary bolt boss, I welded up the area that you milled out. Built the weld out to the rounded areas around the cyl. studs. Figured that the cyl studs needed all the meat that could be provided. Then milled it flat & then milled a recess around the 1/4” bolt hole on each end. Using 1/4” grade 8 flanged head bolt & flanged head nut with o-rings under each to seal.
Just didn’t feel right about using a bolt that had been milled triangular, plus tapping deeper threads. Just didn’t like.....altho there are probably thousands out there running fine. :nix:
PS... don’t have a clue how to post pics. :cry:

I used the 1/4" JIMS bolt for the case boring.  The boring actually took meat out of the JIMS bolt.  However, the final bolt I used is the S&S bolt, which I hand filed to shape.  I also used the rubber grommet washers on both ends.  The bolt is torqued down to S&S specifications.

Offline les

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Re: Recommendations on (kind of) big inch build
« Reply #162 on: May 17, 2018, 07:45:29 PM »
Just did my first check.  40 mpg.