Author Topic: Chain deflection  (Read 467 times)

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Offline dirtymike

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Chain deflection
« on: November 19, 2017, 08:14:53 AM »
I'm doing winter maintenance and come across a little puzzle i use to know the answer to. I rebuilt the Hitachi starter and did a chain alignment and regular maintenance I do if I'm this far in. The chain has 5/8 deflection cold on the ground. I have the rear tire off the ground and shot a little video.  https://youtu.be/tH6TEp0VsPU     Thanks Dirty     

Offline packrat56

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2017, 08:31:28 AM »
   I set mine about 5/8 at the tightest spot. if that's what your asking.
Now I know, why some animals eat their young.

Offline hotrodshovel

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2017, 10:42:04 AM »
I've always had a tight and slack spot on my chains.   It  may be wrong but my method is wheel up and and about 3/4 play on tight spot.  I guess same as Pack Rat give an 1/8".  I never understood why there was a variance considering everything was round.  I also use an alignment tool , a rod that clamps onto the sprocket.  .
John

Offline rbabos

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2017, 12:42:50 PM »
I've always had a tight and slack spot on my chains.   It  may be wrong but my method is wheel up and and about 3/4 play on tight spot.  I guess same as Pack Rat give an 1/8".  I never understood why there was a variance considering everything was round.  I also use an alignment tool , a rod that clamps onto the sprocket.  .
No Harley has 0 runout on engine and clutch components. A few thou here and there really adds up. Chain stretch within the whole length is always inconsistent as well so yoiu have two areas working against even chain tension.
Ron

Offline hotrodshovel

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2017, 02:41:51 PM »
Well there it is...thank you rbabos  one more mystery put to bed.   :up:
John

Offline 76shuvlinoff

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2017, 05:01:46 PM »
Been a while since I checked mine. I didn't even put a full tank of gas thru the shovel this year.

 I usually sit on the bike, tire on the ground, reach down and lift on the chain. I can't really see what I'm doing so it's a feel thing. A spring loaded roller skate type idler positioned under the chain as it leaves the tranny cuts me some slack (pun intended). I also noticed it took some vibes out of the floorboards.   

YMMV



« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 05:11:08 PM by 76shuvlinoff »
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Offline Trouble

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2017, 05:56:09 PM »
I'm with 76Shovlinoff on this one.
Put one of those spring-loaded rollers on to keep tension on the chain and haven't adjusted chain in years. It takes up the slack.
You can try and make something idiot-proof, but those idiots are so darn clever

Offline JW113

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2017, 07:28:17 PM »
I always get the little lady to sit on the bike and hold it upright while I adjust the chain. I figured that the loose/slack thing was due to the sprockets not being perfectly centered on the hub hole...

 :scratch:

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline hotrodshovel

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2017, 11:15:05 PM »
I like the roller Mark, the blade too.
John

Offline dirtymike

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2017, 05:25:06 AM »
 If i could see the other side i might be able to engineer that. Is it a item that can bought that fit these old machines. Dirty

Offline hotrodshovel

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2017, 05:30:39 AM »
Dirty, they are out there.  Its just a matter of where/how you attach them.  The one I see mostly bolts onto the left rear exhaust bracket on the frame.  I don't have that bracket so I can fab some way of mounting it.  But yea, its a good idea.
John

Offline Wicked

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Offline guppymech

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2017, 07:57:54 AM »
The all thread on that ebay tensioner is really not the best fastener to use, makes you wonder about the overall quality of the unit.
'84 FXE, '02 883R

Offline hotrodshovel

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2017, 02:29:26 PM »
Check out these guys.  They make a couple of different applications and I think a lot beefier than those eBay jobs. 

http://www.monstercraftsman.com/categories/Tensioners/
John

Offline 76shuvlinoff

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2017, 05:50:51 PM »
 Mine came off ebay, those have more than doubled in price since I bought and installed the one in the pic at just over 30,000 miles ago.
 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rear-Chain-Tensioner-for-Harley-Davidson-motorcycles-by-V-Twin/371855155075?epid=655545872&hash=item56944b5f83:m:mP9lrpRCp-Sdb_P5MrtHviw&vxp=mtr

I would not pay THAT price for THAT part from THAT manufacturer.

 I'll admit I questioned the longevity myself and I believe (but can't swear) I may have a spare in the basement.  I'm a 36 year factory maintenance manager, spare parts is kinda my thing.....  except when I really need em.  :banghead:
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 06:03:54 PM by 76shuvlinoff »
Being defenseless does not make you more safe.

Offline crock

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2017, 05:39:45 AM »
Ran one on my panhead and my shovel had one on it when I got it. Works well and one of those things you kinda forget about but geeze the price. The spring is the thing! You can get a skate wheel and fab the bracket but that spring....... I did have trouble with the threaded rid and fabed one out a stick of 4140 i got from MacmasterCarr
Crock

Offline hotrodshovel

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2017, 08:26:01 PM »
"100% Genuine V-TWIN" and "country of origin: USA"  written in the same description.   :hyst:
John

Offline 76shuvlinoff

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2017, 03:04:55 AM »
"100% Genuine V-TWIN" and "country of origin: USA"  written in the same description.   :hyst:

Yeah....  :dgust:

  Those in your link look pretty robust.

Bottom line is I really think they help, of course a chain and sprockets need monitoring and adjusting but an idler helps. Like I said I felt it in the floorboards immediately.  Our chains are doing quite the dance.
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Offline dirtymike

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2017, 05:51:05 AM »
Leaning toward the bolt on made by monstercraftsman.com. Good XS650 site.  Still might have to weld on a tab. Good to know that the deflection is a combination of all the tolerances from the sprocket bearings and the chain wear. I dont think it was that noticeable the last time I had it down this far. When i get to the other side Ill pop off the primary and check everything. Dirty   

Offline dirtymike

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2017, 08:47:22 AM »
found the LBV web site. Seems that they sell cheaper direct. Notice the last quote "Knowing the product is assembled in the USA" Their guarantee Our products are made in U.S.A., warranted for one year, and will be repaired or replaced at LBV's option upon return of the defective unit. how long have you had your on 76.    http://www.lbvengchaintensioners.com/productflh.html

Offline guppymech

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2017, 09:53:12 AM »
Will the rear chain tensioner  help prevent the chain from chewing on the inner primary starter mount?  I've got a o-ring chain and it's a fine line between having the chain too tight and it starting to nibble.  I've thought about going to a non o-ring chain as they're smaller.
'84 FXE, '02 883R

Offline crock

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2017, 10:27:14 AM »
Will the rear chain tensioner  help prevent the chain from chewing on the inner primary starter mount?  I've got a o-ring chain and it's a fine line between having the chain too tight and it starting to nibble.  I've thought about going to a non o-ring chain as they're smaller.

It does on mine
Crock

Offline Burnout

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2017, 12:15:21 PM »
If you are going to lower your bike so much the chain hits the starter housing you need to install a smaller front (&rear) sprocket to move the chain down.

What size front & rear sprockets are you running now?
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

Offline guppymech

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2017, 12:48:07 PM »
If you are going to lower your bike so much the chain hits the starter housing you need to install a smaller front (&rear) sprocket to move the chain down.

What size front & rear sprockets are you running now?
The bike is stock height, sprockets are 23/51.  I haven't had a bike with a chain for a long time and got kind of complacent with the reputation of o-ring chains not wearing fast.  I feel kind of bad about the chain getting into the starter housing as I didn't notice anything when I had the primary off earlier this summer.  It kinda just kissed it.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 01:00:38 PM by guppymech »
'84 FXE, '02 883R

Offline 76shuvlinoff

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2017, 05:10:50 PM »
My LBV tensioner has been on the bike since 2004 -05.  My trans sprocket is a 23T I have had everything from 46T to 51T  on the rear setting back at 48.  I do have an adjustable swingarm and even tried 11 inch shocks but could not turn the bike without dragging. I am currently running 2005 FX shocks, I think those are 13s

Yes if the chain gets a bit too much slack I believe the tensioner protects the starter housing. Regardless, I think you'd be hard pressed to find one that has not been kissed. Not sure I'd ever go back to a non O ring chain, my mission has always been less maintenance.
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Offline hotrodshovel

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2017, 06:47:16 PM »
John

Offline hotrodshovel

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2017, 07:01:14 PM »
Dirtymike, I'm looking at these from monster craftsmen also and I do agree for an FLH swing arm a bracket or tab would have to be fabricated and welded of to make them fit but they do look pretty well made.
John

Offline crock

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2017, 06:27:41 AM »
Hey hotrod the trouble with that one is it doesn't appear to be spring loaded
Crock

Offline dirtymike

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2017, 06:54:01 AM »
The LBV that 76 has on his FLH has been on for 12 years with no problem. Direct from LBV with shipping is 110 beers. Its made in the USA and it bolts right to the frame. The awe thread is hidden in the frame. LBV sells to V-Twin. Part #19-0431 for 134. Still cheaper direct from LBV. 

Offline hotrodshovel

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2017, 07:38:15 AM »
Crock, there is a spring in there, I thought the same thing but if you read into the description they say its a high tension or some such spring and its internal.  If you look at the disassembled photo the arm (elbow) that is still connected has the spring inside.  So it looks like it is sealed which can be good or bad.  For that kind of $ its worth buying to just take a look at.  I will get it and report back on what I find, however, all things considered; where its made being one of them, I don't expect too much. 
I've thrown away 20 bucks for worst things thats for sure.  Curiosity got the best of me.

Dirtymike, unfortunately that roller is designed for a stock frame. Mine is aftermarket and does not have the exhaust boss on the frame tube which is needed to locate it plus take up all that threaded rod.  I know I can weld some sort of boss or spacer on there if need be and  if (when) the Chinese experiment goes afoul I may do just that.
John

Offline 76shuvlinoff

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2017, 07:53:41 AM »
The LBV that 76 has on his FLH has been on for 12 years with no problem. Direct from LBV with shipping is 110 beers. Its made in the USA and it bolts right to the frame. The awe thread is hidden in the frame. LBV sells to V-Twin. Part #19-0431 for 134. Still cheaper direct from LBV.

 The threaded rod could easily be shortened or replaced with something more durable if preferred.

 Take some caution with the skate wheel  "axle".  A little snug on that nut and the wheel will drag. I should probably trim mine down for cosmetic reasons.  Frankly I can't believe the small sealed bearings in the wheel have held up for so long.  When in place the entire thing, except for the arm and wheel, is hidden. A shot of rattlecan black and no one would even see the hardware.

 Mark


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Offline hotrodshovel

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2017, 09:34:57 AM »
Mark, I could be wrong but I think the length of the threaded rod locates the wheel in the right spot for the roller to land under the chain.  Again, I could have this all screwed up and I need to look at my frame again but on my frame shortening the rod might just pull the roller away from the chain because of the way my frame is built. Make sense?  I might be able to get away with a spacer but I think too much downward pressure and would need a bead for strength.
I'll dig thru my photos and see if I can come up with a pic showing the lower left rear bend of my frame.  I'm away or Id just take a good photo. 
John

Offline dirtymike

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Offline 76shuvlinoff

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Re: Chain deflection
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2017, 11:39:01 AM »
That's barely more than I paid for mine years ago.
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