Author Topic: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!  (Read 1365 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JW113

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1347
  • Country: 00
  • San Jose, California
OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« on: November 21, 2017, 05:32:16 PM »
Yet again, I had another electronic ignition module take a dump and this time strand me. Of all places, at the Harley machine shop dude's place, so could not have asked for a better spot. But damn, what is going on here? This was the third (3rd!!!) module that has failed.

1st: Crane Hi-4n
2nd: S&S Hi-4n
3rd: Ultima (i.e. repackaged Dynateck 2000i)

The first Hi-4n ran fine for a while, then would intermittently "cut out" then come back on, with nice loud backfire out the exhaust. Sent that back, the second one ran fine for a while, then would completely die, leaving me to coast to the side of the road. After a minute or so, would fire back up and run for a while, the die again.

This Ultima was running fine, I rode to the machine shop to check on my Evo parts. When I went to leave, it would fire up, run for 3-4 seconds, then die. Over, and over, and over again. I let it cool down for about 20 minutes, gave it shot, same thing. I call the Mrs, she came got me and brought me home. I grabbed some tools and THE POINTS PLATE and advance, went back to the shop and had the old module out and points and coil back in, in about 20 minutes. Just a tap of the starter, and it roared to life. Road back home without incident.

So I guess I'm kind of slow, but certainly have learned my lesson here. This bike wants points ignition, end of story.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline Ohio HD

  • Professional Cat Herder
  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18994
  • Country: us
  • OH CRAP!
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2017, 05:38:47 PM »
Had two issues similar, Crane HI-4 and then a Daytona Twin Tec went in my Evo. One of the guys at Twin Tec helped me diagnose an over charging regulator as the issue. 
For the best deal on bike parts, call Calif Phil
     www.harleypartscheap.com

Offline 76shuvlinoff

  • Thread Locker
  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15890
  • Country: us
  • 76 FLH -93" 12 FLHTCU, 103" Michigan
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2017, 06:22:55 PM »
I dunno JW, the only electronic sparker I ever installed in a bike was the Dynatek 2000i I put in my 76 in 2003. Still rockin dual plugs single fire with big ugly green coils to this day.   In reference to Ohio's response I did install a 32 amp Cycle Electric reg and stator at the same time.  ( edit to add) : plus a complete wiring harness.

Knockin wood.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 06:37:47 PM by 76shuvlinoff »
Being defenseless does not make you more safe.

Offline Julio

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 342
  • Country: us
  • Baked, not fried
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2017, 06:27:21 PM »
My shovel went through two Dyna Ss in 15k miles. The last time, it was nice enough to warn me of it's impending doom ~5 miles away from home. After four forced stops to let it cool off, it finally died completely ~500 feet from my house. Quite a push for an old fart. She now sports points.
My evo's Dyna S failed  and left me stranded last year. She now sports points.
In my cross country travels in the early nineties, ignition problems were the biggest talking points when I ran into other LDRs on HDs. Most of them replaced their ignition with new OEM units. I ran points on my '87 FXST from the time the stock ignition failed at 12k miles, till I sold it with over 100k miles on it.
Never had a problem.
I don't care if you call me a luddite, simple points and condenser get me where I'm going.

Offline JW113

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1347
  • Country: 00
  • San Jose, California
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2017, 07:48:33 PM »
I don't care if you call me a luddite, simple points and condenser get me where I'm going.

That, and any auto parts store or truck stop has a set of points and a condenser that will fit.

I can't explain it. But I do know "three strikes and you're OUT".

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline gryphon

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2920
  • Country: 00
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2017, 09:40:10 AM »
I had a couple of HD "pointless ignitions" go belly up on me back in the late 70's or early 80's (I don't remember when they first came out). If you ever want to do something exciting just get towed down the hiway behind a car at 60mph. Anyway, the points went back in for several years. About 10 years ago (maybe a little longer) I decided to go back to an electronic when I started doing larger motors. I set it up so that I can change out my ignition in about 5 minutes on the side of the road. The first thing I did was install weatherpak connectors so that my ignition (Ultima) just plugs in to a harness. I can't run the wires through the little hole in the bottom of the cam cover because of the weatherpak so I run the S&S cover which routes the wires differently and allows me to use the weatherpak's. I marked the rotor and the advance plate and now I can be back on the road in under 5 minutes even on the side of the hiway. I bolted on a bracket below the front motor mount and bolted a spare coil on there. You can't really see it because of the regulator. I keep a spare ignition in my tool bag. I ride in a lot of places that are really out in the boonies and I'd hate to get stuck out there. My thinking is that an ignition or a coil can be replaced in mere minutes if you have 'em but can't be "fixed" no matter what. Neither the coil or the ignition are ever in the way and they just sit there waiting for the day. If you don't have or want the S&S cover you can always run the wires out the bottom of the cover and then attach your weatherpak. If the ignition ever takes a crap on you just leave the points cover off and you can run your wires to plug into the harness just to get you home.

Offline guppymech

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 147
  • Country: us
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2017, 10:02:59 AM »
I replaced the stock electronic ign on my '84 Shovel with points.  I bought one of the complete points conversion kits and used it with some Blue Streak points and cond.  Right away the bike had trouble idling down because the springs didn't return the flyweights.  I swapped in a NOS Harley advance unit I was saving and the problem went away.  What I'm trying to say is the kits are good because you get everything you need for the conversion but the advance units can be hit or miss.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 10:07:04 AM by guppymech »
'84 FXE, '02 883R

Offline gryphon

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2920
  • Country: 00
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2017, 10:54:35 AM »
One more thing I'd like to add. One of the biggest killers of electronic ignitions is heat. I bought some temp sensor labels from omega https://www.omega.com/subsection/non-reversible-temperature-label.html and stick them to mu ignition. Allows you to keep an eye on things and will tell you if your ignition is getting too hot.

Offline JW113

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1347
  • Country: 00
  • San Jose, California
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2017, 11:10:31 AM »
Advance unit: I like the one by Rivera.

Temp: I use one of those LED temperature guns all the time on the motor. Didn't notice that the nosecone was getting excessively hot, maybe 180-ish?

One common thread in all three of these ignition modules, the coil. Same coil used each time. It measured 3 ohms late I checked, but will measure it again. Weird.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline gryphon

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2920
  • Country: 00
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2017, 11:21:03 AM »
The thing I like about the temp labels is that it will let you know if the ignition "ever" got that hot. Checking engine temp with a temp gun will only show you what the temp is now. As nice as they are it won't let you know that yesterday in traffic your ignition hit 200 degrees (just an example). Mine never seemed to blacken out the dots any higher than 170 to 180 degrees. Now that I've changed my exhaust I'm paying attention to the label again just in case the new pipes are heating up the nose cone.

Offline Hossamania

  • Road Glide Lover
  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14955
  • Country: us
  • No. No RoadGlides
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2017, 11:57:59 AM »
Advance unit: I like the one by Rivera.

Temp: I use one of those LED temperature guns all the time on the motor. Didn't notice that the nosecone was getting excessively hot, maybe 180-ish?

One common thread in all three of these ignition modules, the coil. Same coil used each time. It measured 3 ohms late I checked, but will measure it again. Weird.

-JW

Gryphon mentioned overcharging. Is it a possibility? Any way to put a volt guage or meter on and monitor while going down the road? It might not be a lot of extra volts, but maybe long term it fries the modules?
Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Offline Hossamania

  • Road Glide Lover
  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14955
  • Country: us
  • No. No RoadGlides
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2017, 12:00:30 PM »
I had a couple of HD "pointless ignitions" go belly up on me back in the late 70's or early 80's (I don't remember when they first came out). If you ever want to do something exciting just get towed down the hiway behind a car at 60mph. Anyway, the points went back in for several years. About 10 years ago (maybe a little longer) I decided to go back to an electronic when I started doing larger motors. I set it up so that I can change out my ignition in about 5 minutes on the side of the road. The first thing I did was install weatherpak connectors so that my ignition (Ultima) just plugs in to a harness. I can't run the wires through the little hole in the bottom of the cam cover because of the weatherpak so I run the S&S cover which routes the wires differently and allows me to use the weatherpak's. I marked the rotor and the advance plate and now I can be back on the road in under 5 minutes even on the side of the hiway. I bolted on a bracket below the front motor mount and bolted a spare coil on there. You can't really see it because of the regulator. I keep a spare ignition in my tool bag. I ride in a lot of places that are really out in the boonies and I'd hate to get stuck out there. My thinking is that an ignition or a coil can be replaced in mere minutes if you have 'em but can't be "fixed" no matter what. Neither the coil or the ignition are ever in the way and they just sit there waiting for the day. If you don't have or want the S&S cover you can always run the wires out the bottom of the cover and then attach your weatherpak. If the ignition ever takes a crap on you just leave the points cover off and you can run your wires to plug into the harness just to get you home.

So now that you did all this prep work, has it ever failed on you?
 My guess is probably not, because you're ready for it, which is usually the way!
Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Offline packrat56

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1083
  • Country: us
  • packrat56
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2017, 12:06:36 PM »
Advance unit: I like the one by Rivera.

Temp: I use one of those LED temperature guns all the time on the motor. Didn't notice that the nosecone was getting excessively hot, maybe 180-ish?

One common thread in all three of these ignition modules, the coil. Same coil used each time. It measured 3 ohms late I checked, but will measure it again. Weird.

-JW

Gryphon mentioned overcharging. Is it a possibility? Any way to put a volt guage or meter on and monitor while going down the road? It might not be a lot of extra volts, but maybe long term it fries the modules?

    That had me thinking ,,,,ya I know,,, But I was looking at some little 8v-40v/12v transformers for just the ign.  :nix:
Now I know, why some animals eat their young.

Offline gryphon

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2920
  • Country: 00
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2017, 12:14:30 PM »
Yep, now that everything is setup for the quick roadside repair I haven't needed to do it. Both the spare coil I carry and the ignition do come in handy when I'm trying to run down a gremlin though. If I install the spare part and the bikes still doing that weird thing (whatever it is at the time) then at least I've narrowed it down.

Offline david lee

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 614
  • Country: au
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2017, 12:32:24 PM »
i must be lucky my 81 lowrider still runs the stock elec ign.but then again its only done 16,000 ks

Offline Snowyone

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 446
  • Country: us
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2017, 03:20:12 PM »
The first time mine crapped out on my 80 FXWG, I was in the middle of Montana.  Did the roadside tear down and it fired right back up.  I'm thinking must have been a wiring gremlin.  Made it about another 10 miles and it died right at an off ramp to Reed Point.  Sitting in the bar moaning about my lot in life when an old cowboy said it sounds like his Ford pickup.  He said when its ign. got hot and quit he would just unload his cooler into a plastic bag and sit it on his ign. module.  Well, duh, sounds good to me.  Got a bag of ice and hung it from a cross member of the frame and would swing back against the ign. module when I was going down the road.  The ice soon went away but the bag of water worked all the way to Sturgis.  I've used the Dyna S sense then with no failures in 20 years of riding.  Mine is a twin plug with two coils and if I do a little of maintense to the advance weights and springs it works like a charm.  I've had a points conversion kit riding in the saddle bags for all these years and it's about worn out.

Offline dirtymike

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 748
  • Country: us
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2017, 04:34:38 PM »
I thought electronic ignition did not use advance weights.

Offline Ohio HD

  • Professional Cat Herder
  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18994
  • Country: us
  • OH CRAP!
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2017, 04:51:50 PM »
The Dyna S does. They work well, but are a little outdated.
For the best deal on bike parts, call Calif Phil
     www.harleypartscheap.com

Offline JW113

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1347
  • Country: 00
  • San Jose, California
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2017, 07:37:40 PM »
Gryphon mentioned overcharging. Is it a possibility? Any way to put a volt guage or meter on and monitor while going down the road? It might not be a lot of extra volts, but maybe long term it fries the modules?


Well now Hossifariain, now that you mention it...

http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php?topic=99749.0

I put one of these very cool "gauges" on the old Shovel a few months ago. I still have the stock 17amp alternator, which seems to work just fine. And does not seem to overcharge. How could it? It's totally limp dick!

I am going to throw this coil I have in the oven or BBQ, heat it up, THEN measure it. A funny little gremlin in my gut is telling me that this coil is taking out these ignition modules...

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline dirtymike

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 748
  • Country: us
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2017, 05:04:02 AM »
Are you using the DS6-2. Change to a 5 ohm coil and see what happens. Every one I installed on a shovel got hot and  went out. They would slowly heat up and act like i was out of fuel. Stop and let it cool down and off i go again. I thought it was the coil and changed it out with one i knew was good with no luck. I went back to points and still using the same set. That was a few years ago.

Online HotRodShovel

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2026
  • Country: us
  • NYC/S.FL
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2017, 07:51:05 AM »
I know the Dyna S is old technology but I have been abusing one for 15-16 years now. Not really sure, maybe more.  I even picked up another some years ago on a good deal and carry it in my tool kit anticipating my original to croak.   Not yet!!!  The thing is bullet proof.  I often think of 'upgrading" to a fully electronic ignition but you now, if it aint broke, break it then fix it......I'm trying very hard not to mess with success.
Sometimes life is like trying to share a sandwich with Rosie O'Donnell. 
John

Offline 76shuvlinoff

  • Thread Locker
  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15890
  • Country: us
  • 76 FLH -93" 12 FLHTCU, 103" Michigan
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2017, 07:56:53 AM »
Just want to mention that the older Dyna 2000i (like mine) is not kicker friendly. I don't know about the newer units.

 Mark
Being defenseless does not make you more safe.

Offline Ohio HD

  • Professional Cat Herder
  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18994
  • Country: us
  • OH CRAP!
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2017, 07:58:22 AM »
I know the Dyna S is old technology but I have been abusing one for 15-16 years now. Not really sure, maybe more.  I even picked up another some years ago on a good deal and carry it in my tool kit anticipating my original to croak.   Not yet!!!  The thing is bullet proof.  I often think of 'upgrading" to a fully electronic ignition but you now, if it aint broke, break it then fix it......I'm trying very hard not to mess with success.

Nothing wrong with the Dyna S, I used quite a few of them. They work well. They were just before we had the ability to adjust a curve, set a kick start mode, etc. I honestly never had a Dyna S fail.
For the best deal on bike parts, call Calif Phil
     www.harleypartscheap.com

Online HotRodShovel

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2026
  • Country: us
  • NYC/S.FL
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2017, 09:48:20 AM »
I have found as long as I have my timing and carb properly adjusted kicking this beast is not really a problem. Thats another reason Im kind of hand shy about replacing the Dyna S.  I like to kick the bastard, even more so now that I have compression releases, thank you Kirby, (96" and only God knows what kind of compression I'm making) and I only push the button when I'm in full blown gimp mode.

Maybe I'll just leave well enough alone..for now or at least until I have it running perfectly then I'll be justified to crack it open and do something to it.
Sometimes life is like trying to share a sandwich with Rosie O'Donnell. 
John

Offline 76shuvlinoff

  • Thread Locker
  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15890
  • Country: us
  • 76 FLH -93" 12 FLHTCU, 103" Michigan
Re: OK I GET THE POINT(s)!!!
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2017, 02:24:01 PM »
 John, I think if and when my 2000i craps out I will consider going back to single plugs with comp releases in the other holes, at least I think there are off the shelf releases to fit the plug threads, maybe not.  I dunno, the way it is holding up by then I may be too damn old for kicking, even with releases.
Being defenseless does not make you more safe.