Author Topic: Shovel to Pan  (Read 512 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline hbkeith

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2567
Shovel to Pan
« on: December 18, 2017, 07:25:30 AM »
Friend has a 66FLH , basicly stock , been sitting long time , the Engine needs LOTs of topend work , thinking on turning it to a Panhead , never plans to ever sell it , What all of the 66 parts would work in the swap . Topend oil system on late Pan and early shovel were same wernt they ?

Offline JW113

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1204
  • Country: 00
  • San Jose, California
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2017, 03:23:20 PM »
Close enough to adapt no problem. Was quite common to switch the other way back in the day.

Question: why does he want to give away 10HP? Sake of style or something?

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline hbkeith

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2567
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2017, 04:14:54 PM »
Close enough to adapt no problem. Was quite common to switch the other way back in the day.

Question: why does he want to give away 10HP? Sake of style or something?

-JW
    it was basic beer drinking talk , what if kind of thing , also when I said bike is stock , I don't mean all original , its in stock form ( not chopped ) but is a complete rat bike . and he has some Pan parts laying around

Offline dirtymike

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 696
  • Country: us
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2017, 05:52:01 PM »
I'd do some more beer drinking around that 66 for a few more sessions to the point that all them pan head parts are on it .Dirty.

Offline Ohio HD

  • Professional Cat Herder
  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16947
  • Country: us
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2017, 06:03:23 PM »
What year Pan Heads? Some are internal oiling to the heads.
For the best deal on bike parts, call Calif Phil
     www.harleypartscheap.com

Offline JW113

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1204
  • Country: 00
  • San Jose, California
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2017, 07:43:07 PM »
Well OK then!!

 :beer: :beer: :beer:

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers

  • Premium Vendor
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1360
  • Country: us
  • www.RockerLockers.com
    • Rocker Lockers
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2017, 04:32:38 AM »
Humm, looks like my post is gone, :scratch:
I think it would be a cool swap, easy to do, especially on a rat/barn find type bar hopper bike.
www.Rockerlockers.com
Call for dealer discount

Offline dirtymike

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 696
  • Country: us
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2017, 05:24:16 AM »
shovelhead years are 1966-1984, correct me if i am in error. The 1966 pan-shovel had a shovelhead top end and a panhead bottom end. If it has a panhead top end its a real panhead. 1966 was the last year of the Panheadand the first year of the shovelhead. The top end oiling system on a panhead is through the pushrods i believe, I have worked on them in a limited number., maybe 3 or 4. Love to have one though. Dirty

Offline Breeze

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2247
  • Country: us
  • middle Georgia '68 Shovel,'92 Dyna, '07 E.Glide
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2017, 01:58:47 PM »
'65 was the last year Panhead, but 1st year "ElectraGlide".  1966-69 were Generators, commonly called Slabside, Flatside or  Panshovel, by those thinking Panheads were better. 1970 was first year of alternator in left case, and redesigned cam chest. Usually called "Coneshovels".  As noted, there were lots of small hard to remember changes in oiling and other systems. At one time I knew what the difference between the 7 or 9 fin cylinders were, or the 5 fin heads,and many others, but now it's just all mush in my head.  :banghead:
I think I'll just stay home today, it looks too peoplely out there.

Offline dirtymike

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 696
  • Country: us
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2017, 02:42:05 PM »
"Mush" I feel your pain Breeze. When we going to see a pic of this machine. Dirty
 

Offline 76shuvlinoff

  • Thread Locker
  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15231
  • Country: us
  • 76 FLH -93" 12 FLHTCU, 103" Michigan
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2017, 04:31:47 PM »
First year shovel. I'd probably keep it shovel..... I know, that's not what you asked, can't help myself.

  I have a truly bastardized bike that started as a 76 FLH shovel, I bastardized it.  No real attraction or value to anyone else but it was my first Harley and at this point I am thinking I should have left it alone.
Being defenseless does not make you more safe.

Offline hotrodshovel

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1838
  • Country: us
  • NYC
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2017, 05:07:41 PM »
Mark, I'm in the same boat. I don't know what demon got inside of me but I can't leave well enough alone.  I'm afraid to tally the $$ I have put into it.  I NEVER will recoup my investment so there is no way I would sell it. 
Plus its all mine.  The only other hands that touched that bike were Kirby's (pretty f*ck$ng competent hands at that, and a ton of advise) machine work on cases and heads.   
Finally with the S&S jugs its All-American.   So now.....whats with this putting Pan heads on a Shovel? Oh boy, someone stop me.
John

Offline Hossamania

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12698
  • Country: us
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2017, 05:30:04 PM »
I say, if you can get the proper info, do it. It's just a set of heads for God's sake.
Happiness does not buy money.

Offline Ohio HD

  • Professional Cat Herder
  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16947
  • Country: us
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2017, 05:35:08 PM »
and cylinders, and exhaust system.....   
For the best deal on bike parts, call Calif Phil
     www.harleypartscheap.com

Offline Hossamania

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12698
  • Country: us
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2017, 05:47:03 PM »
He didn't say anything about cylinders, but he did say the top end was garbage, so who gives a shit if he puts Pan heads on a Shovel?
I knew a guy who turned a 1967 Ford station wagon into a two door. Why? Because he could, and so he could go into the parts store and order parts for a '67 Ford two door wagon, and watch them struggle to find it in their books.
I imagine hbkeith going to his parts guy and ordering parts for a '66 pan, and then proving he has one.
Happiness does not buy money.

Offline Ohio HD

  • Professional Cat Herder
  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16947
  • Country: us
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2017, 05:54:25 PM »
He didn't say anything about cylinders, but he did say the top end was garbage, so who gives a shit if he puts Pan heads on a Shovel?
I knew a guy who turned a 1967 Ford station wagon into a two door. Why? Because he could, and so he could go into the parts store and order parts for a '67 Ford two door wagon, and watch them struggle to find it in their books.
I imagine hbkeith going to his parts guy and ordering parts for a '66 pan, and then proving he has one.

Pan cylinders are not the same as Shovel cylinders. Neither is the exhaust hook up to the heads from a Shovel bike. There's more to do than say "just throw heads on it". And there is no such thing as a '66 Pan to order parts for.
For the best deal on bike parts, call Calif Phil
     www.harleypartscheap.com

Offline Hossamania

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12698
  • Country: us
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2017, 06:09:26 PM »
He didn't say anything about cylinders, but he did say the top end was garbage, so who gives a shit if he puts Pan heads on a Shovel?
I knew a guy who turned a 1967 Ford station wagon into a two door. Why? Because he could, and so he could go into the parts store and order parts for a '67 Ford two door wagon, and watch them struggle to find it in their books.
I imagine hbkeith going to his parts guy and ordering parts for a '66 pan, and then proving he has one.

 And there is no such thing as a '66 Pan to order parts for.

And there in lies the fun of doing it.
Happiness does not buy money.

Offline 72fl

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 458
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2017, 04:23:39 AM »
shovelhead years are 1966-1984, correct me if i am in error. The 1966 pan-shovel had a shovelhead top end and a panhead bottom end. If it has a panhead top end its a real panhead. 1966 was the last year of the Panheadand the first year of the shovelhead. The top end oiling system on a panhead is through the pushrods i believe, I have worked on them in a limited number., maybe 3 or 4. Love to have one though. Dirty
And some 85 Shovels are out there......

Offline hotrodshovel

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1838
  • Country: us
  • NYC
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2017, 05:41:33 AM »
Ohio, I get the exhaust but whats different about the cylinders?  I was always under the impression (obviously mistaken) that Shovel & Pan jugs were the same. 
John

Offline Ohio HD

  • Professional Cat Herder
  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16947
  • Country: us
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2017, 06:04:27 AM »
Pan Head Cylinders with the exception I think of '65 use internal oiling passages to the heads from the case. '65 I know had external oil lines like a Shovel plumbed to the heads, they were preparing for the change over in '65. That's why I say you need to know what Pan Head parts you have and what all must be changed to go backwards from a Shovel. I'm not even sure that the '66 case has oil passages to send oil to the heads by way of the cylinders.   
For the best deal on bike parts, call Calif Phil
     www.harleypartscheap.com

Offline HOGMIKE

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1913
  • Country: us
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2017, 06:09:46 AM »
Ohio, I get the exhaust but whats different about the cylinders?  I was always under the impression (obviously mistaken) that Shovel & Pan jugs were the same.

63-65 pan cylinders have no oil passage for the top end, they used outside oilers.
Earlier cylinders used oil feed passages (and return) in the cylinders.
STOCK 66 used outside oilers.
If you go with outside oiler pan heads AND same year cylinders, no problem .
Best bet would be to use 63-65 pan parts, barrels, heads, manifold carb, throttle assembly, top mounts,
There are carb adapters to use 66 and later, or aftermarket carbs.
Of course, there will probably be some small issues that can be fixed as the project continues
Anything can be done with enough time and patience.
Again, JMHO
 :missed:
HOGMIKE

Offline Ohio HD

  • Professional Cat Herder
  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16947
  • Country: us
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2017, 06:14:38 AM »
Ohio, I get the exhaust but whats different about the cylinders?  I was always under the impression (obviously mistaken) that Shovel & Pan jugs were the same.

63-65 pan cylinders have no oil passage for the top end, they used outside oilers.
Earlier cylinders used oil feed passages (and return) in the cylinders.
STOCK 66 used outside oilers.
If you go with outside oiler pan heads AND same year cylinders, no problem .
Best bet would be to use 63-65 pan parts, barrels, heads, manifold carb, throttle assembly, top mounts,
There are carb adapters to use 66 and later, or aftermarket carbs.
Of course, there will probably be some small issues that can be fixed as the project continues
Anything can be done with enough time and patience.
Again, JMHO
 :missed:

Agree, and I was unsure of how many years were external oiling heads. That also makes those heads less available as they're only in production a few years. Anything can be done with welding and machine work too. But now you get away from a simple swap as was contemplated.
For the best deal on bike parts, call Calif Phil
     www.harleypartscheap.com

Offline 76shuvlinoff

  • Thread Locker
  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15231
  • Country: us
  • 76 FLH -93" 12 FLHTCU, 103" Michigan
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2017, 04:24:51 PM »
 I certainly won't argue against doing what you want. That's exactly how my 76 got to where it is.... which in truth is really nowhere. I had a good time doing it though. I built a shovelish bike to start, run, and stop reliably all day with evos. Well, now the evos are gone so what? Restoring it isn't worth the money either. I get it out a few times a summer, it makes me grin and confuses others.. that's all you can ask from a toy anyhow.

 Back to this particular project, In keeping it shovel or making it a pan the guy should do what he wants, but from what I'm reading here neither direction is going to be all that cheap.   

Being defenseless does not make you more safe.

Offline drinner-okc

  • Member
  • Posts: 26
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2017, 07:01:51 PM »
The quickest and probably least expensive way to do this is Replica Pan Heads.  Most of the 'Outside Oiler ' replicas have Shovel (cylinder) bolt patterns and Shovel intake & Exhaust Ports.
Even the last 65 real Pan heads are now 53 years old. In terrible shape they bring $1000 (a thousand bucks) bare.  Most have had the original seats replaced by some do-gooder over no-lead gas. Then there are the stripped pan cover screw holes, worn exhaust spigots, broken fins.
Me? I'm going the other direction, think generator lower end, EVO top end !

Offline kd

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4531
  • Country: ca
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2017, 08:35:44 PM »
Looking back at my previous post recommending staying with the 66 shovel parts, and listening to the OP's thoughts to just get this bike on the road, reminds me of the time I did something similar.  In the 70's I took a real nice 65 pan chassis (badly scattered engine) and replaced it with a '47 knuck engine and transmission. It turned out to be a real sweet ride and that's what it's all about. Used what was available on a low budget and made it happen.

I say take the info you have gathered, price out the options, and choose the one that works for you the best. Get it running and enjoy the  :turd: out of it.
KD

Offline hbkeith

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2567
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2017, 02:05:05 AM »
He didn't say anything about cylinders, but he did say the top end was garbage, so who gives a shit if he puts Pan heads on a Shovel?
I knew a guy who turned a 1967 Ford station wagon into a two door. Why? Because he could, and so he could go into the parts store and order parts for a '67 Ford two door wagon, and watch them struggle to find it in their books.
I imagine hbkeith going to his parts guy and ordering parts for a '66 pan, and then proving he has one.
     that's similar to how the talk all started , guy showed up with a guy we didn't know and the guy saw the 66 sitting in corner with no topend and asked if that was a 65Pan

Offline hotrodshovel

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1838
  • Country: us
  • NYC
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2017, 01:48:37 PM »
It always starts out as a 'project' and seems to snowball into a 'job'.   I still think the Panhead idea is cool.  The aftermarket Panheads fitted for Shovel cylinders is probably the way to go. As stated, the OEM heads are slim and beat up. 

I know a guy up in Brooklyn who actually put Evo top end on a Flatside lower.  It was a real nice build and a very solid runner. 
John

Offline Ohio HD

  • Professional Cat Herder
  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16947
  • Country: us
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2017, 03:32:16 PM »
Axtell created the Shovelution back in the late 80's.


http://www.axtellsales.com/shovelution-cylinders/

For the best deal on bike parts, call Calif Phil
     www.harleypartscheap.com

Offline BKACHE

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 532
  • Country: us
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2017, 03:46:46 PM »
With a few more beers - suggest one cyl a shovel and one a pan.
If unique is what you seek. I have only seen a couple like this.

Offline hotrodshovel

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1838
  • Country: us
  • NYC
Re: Shovel to Pan
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2017, 04:37:07 PM »
yea, unique it will be but not for me, PanShoveloution.  Isn't that the beauty of it though? It doesn't really matter as long as you dig it.
John