Author Topic: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions  (Read 3448 times)

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Offline Jim Bronson

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Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« on: December 21, 2017, 09:21:45 PM »
My dealer installed this for me yesterday. I could have done it myself, but chalk it up to laziness. The reduction in lever effort is quite noticeable, and the action is smooth. The adjustment is a bit tricky, but it is now where I like it. I haven't ridden it much, but I think I'm gonna like it. Someone asked for a clutch pushrod movement reading. I'll get to it one of these days. The unit is pretty pricey but worth it in my opinion.
Going down that long, lonesome highway. Gonna live life my way.

Offline 88b

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2017, 12:25:06 AM »
What bike ? Ive installed several of the HD reduced effort kits ( ramps and spring ) on twin cams , everyone has liked them . Only worked on two bikes a Sporty and an Evo soft tail with the longer arms, both had adjustment problems .

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2017, 07:14:21 AM »
 love mine.  :up:
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Offline kd

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2017, 07:41:08 AM »
love mine.  :up:


Ditto. Mine is doing a lot of work too.
KD

Offline Paniolo

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2017, 07:48:05 AM »
Will it work with the HD hydraulic system and a VPC?
Can the friction zone be adjusted?
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Offline remington007

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2017, 08:13:55 AM »
Cable set up only

Offline Jim Bronson

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2017, 08:44:31 AM »
My bike is a '15 RK. It replaces both ramps only. They are differently designed with a slightly longer arm and bearing dimples that are closer to the center of the rotation. It makes quite a difference in lever effort.
Going down that long, lonesome highway. Gonna live life my way.

Online calif phil

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2017, 07:25:30 AM »
Muller power clutch ramps are expensive but worth every penny.  :up:

Offline borno

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2017, 01:55:26 PM »
I really want to try those ramps as my left hand locks up, especially if it's cold. I wonder if SE spring with the muller ramps is as easy as the stock ramp and clutch spring. I should put the SE spring in my '07, but haven't because of the arthritis and i'm thinking it might be just the thing. :scoot:

Offline kd

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2017, 04:02:12 PM »
I'll bet it is (or even easier).
KD

Offline Jim Bronson

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2017, 04:13:20 PM »
I have a SE spring with the Muller ramps, and I compared it with a hydraulic clutch with a stock spring. I could feel very little difference in lever effort.
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Offline borno

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2017, 07:06:57 PM »
I have a SE spring with the Muller ramps, and I compared it with a hydraulic clutch with a stock spring. I could feel very little difference in lever effort.

Sounds good, I was wondering what to get with my "survivor" pool winnings, and what to do to the bike this winter. :up:

Offline Snowyone

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2017, 08:32:38 PM »
Like the reduced clutch effort but am having hell with the adjustment.  I have a SE clutch and have about worn out the derby cover trying to get it right.  About ready to go back to stock cause its a pain finding neutral.  Like my shovelhead before I installed a Pro clutch.  Best find neutral before you come to a stop.

Offline FSG

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2017, 08:59:36 PM »
Quote
but am having hell with the adjustment


Perhaps change your adjustment method

As everything expands and gets further apart when hot I adjust things cold so that there isn't much play at all, a hair at the most.

I slack the cable so that the ramps are free to move, then wind in the clutch release pushrod adjuster until it'll go no more, at that stage the clutch plates as viewed at the basket are separated as much as they will go, the ramps are also fully homed,

at this point the slack can be taken out of the cable and the lever operated, it's shouldn't move, any real movement indicates wear in the pivot point or the inner cable stretching or the outer cable jacket compressing, appropriate action can then be taken

after checking the cable I slack the cable to achieve a hair to 1/32 // 1/16 max at the lever

I then back out the clutch release pushrod adjuster, witness the plates make contact again, continue to back out the adjuster so that it's a hair to half a turn out from the ramp seat

this is on a cold engine so ensure it gets warm up time before getting up it

I only go through this full process once a year or if I've had the clutch apart or cable off, I then know where I'm starting from and any later adjustments are just the pushrod adjuster which is easy peasy


Offline Azgunner

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2017, 06:20:16 AM »
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

Offline Jim Bronson

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2017, 10:42:31 AM »
Granted the adjustment is tricky, as reported by the dealer. It took them several times to get it right. Actually I think they just wanted some seat time on my RK with the Tire Shredder kit and dyno tuned.  :teeth:
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Offline ecir50

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2017, 01:08:36 PM »
not understanding how adjustment is any different than the Harley piece.

Offline kd

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2017, 01:45:04 PM »
The Muller arm uses the whole release stroke to give a good clean release. The pushrod adjustment on the clutch pac and the lever cable adjustment have to be set to bare minimum clearance to allow the full stroke to be doing work. Any free play in either adjustment is dead time for the work portion of the release stroke when you squeeze the lever.
KD

Offline ecir50

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2017, 04:39:25 PM »
Get all of that, still don't see the difference :).

Offline Fat daddy

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2017, 04:47:58 PM »
The difference between Harley and mueller is after you loosen the adjuster rod and turn in until it just grabs,you than turn it back out 1/8 turn. The harley is 1/2 to 3/4

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2017, 04:51:00 PM »
I adjust the Harley 21 or 19 ramps at 1/4 to 3/8 turn out. That's how you get more push rod travel.
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Offline FSG

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2017, 04:57:43 PM »
Quote
19 ramps

 where did you get those     :scratch: 

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2017, 04:58:50 PM »
Quote
19 ramps

 where did you get those     :scratch:

   :teeth:     18      :embarrassed:

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Offline road-dawgs1

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2017, 05:04:08 PM »
The difference between Harley and mueller is after you loosen the adjuster rod and turn in until it just grabs,you than turn it back out 1/8 turn. The harley is 1/2 to 3/4

How does one determine what 1/8th of a turn is? Its easy to determine 1/2 a turn or 3/4
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Offline ecir50

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2017, 05:16:31 PM »
I adjust the Harley 21 or 19 ramps at 1/4 to 3/8 turn out. That's how you get more push rod travel.
3/16 here for my 21 degree :).

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2017, 05:22:48 PM »
The difference between Harley and mueller is after you loosen the adjuster rod and turn in until it just grabs,you than turn it back out 1/8 turn. The harley is 1/2 to 3/4

How does one determine what 1/8th of a turn is? Its easy to determine 1/2 a turn or 3/4

Counter clockwise from bottom. Use the screw slot as an indicator.

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Offline Jim Bronson

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2017, 05:38:45 PM »
I'm planning to report the clutch rod movement with the Muller. Is it done with the engine warm or cold? Does it matter?
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Online klammer76

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2017, 06:52:44 PM »
I'm planning to report the clutch rod movement with the Muller. Is it done with the engine warm or cold? Does it matter?
I would do it cold first as that will be the max measurement. As the bike gets hot, things expand, that is why the Muller is adjusted on the tight side cold as compared to the factory manual. You can check it hot or warm after to see what the difference is if any.

I have an unheated garage, with temps currently at zero outside and in the 20's inside, I think the oil sticks to the plates more in the extreme cold as opposed to when the garage is 70* f in the summer. Hard part is mounting the magnetic base and getting the indicator over to the center of the clutch (at least for me and my base). I recently fabed up some metal stock that is held under the bike against the frame rails with my scissor jack to mount the mag base to. Too cold to even think about going out there now  :angry:

Offline FSG

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2017, 07:04:19 PM »
Quote
I would do it cold first as that will be the max measurement. As the bike gets hot, things expand, that is why the Muller is adjusted on the tight side cold as compared to the factory manual.

 :up:

Offline smoserx1

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2017, 05:06:00 AM »
Quote
not understanding how adjustment is any different than the Harley piece.

Think of it as a pry bar or a lever.  Move your pivot point in closer to the load and the easier it is to pry, but the less it lifts your load.  Easy pull (less  angle)ramps move the clutch  stack less using the same lever pull thus making the pull easier.  The clutch adjustment however becomes less forgiving because there is a greater chance your adjustment will not separate the plate stack enough to get good separation, resulting in  residual drag, which causes the bike to tend  to creep even when the clutch is pulled in and makes finding neutral harder when the engine is running.

Offline HotRodShovel

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2017, 05:20:32 AM »
a 45* rotation of the nut/wrench would be 1/8th of a turn.
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Offline Moparnut72

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2017, 09:31:38 AM »
So, how about the new Softails? The clutch pull is quite a bit lighter than my '16. Did they come up with something different or is there going to be a limited amount of release? I haven't ridden one so no personal experience.
kk
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Offline Ohio HD

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Offline Bagger

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2017, 01:04:46 PM »
Is there anyone on HTT that can machine a Muller for the Baker throwout bearing for me?

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2017, 01:10:02 PM »
 Just Nick did mine for me.
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Offline Ancient

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2017, 01:25:33 PM »
I've been using the Muller for several years and like it but as others have mentioned the adjustment recommendations from Muller call for 1/8 turn back off and I don't know if I agree with that and I'll explain.

Case in point: Last spring I was up at Joe Lyons place getting tuned and he noted some clutch slip. I had adjusted it per Muller instruction while cold and we decided to pull the cover and check it. It was of course hot then and when he broke the nut loose the screw had no free play. So he backed it off half a turn past contact and continued on with the tune. After I rode it home I got to thinking, does everything in that clutch actuation system really separate when it heats up? I'm thinking maybe the frictions in the clutch pack are growing with heat and I'm losing all the separation with the limited travel? Don't know, just a thought. Can't come up with another reason for the disappearing 1/8th turn free play. Alto Carbonite pack by the way.

In any case I have been using it at 1/2 turn backoff nowadays and very tight on the cable adjustment, just enough to see it pull away from the housing and it seems to be doing fine and I can't detect any slippage when hot.
Greg

Offline -deuced-

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2017, 08:07:20 PM »
Is there anyone on HTT that can machine a Muller for the Baker throwout bearing for me?

hmmm, knowledge only from reading htt but I didn't think Muller needed machining for Baker throwout beariing kit.


Just Nick did mine for me.


I think FSG machined his to accept a larger retaining ring than the one Baker supplies. Did you have to machine the Muller ramp to accept the Baker thrust washer?


The difference between Harley and mueller is after you loosen the adjuster rod and turn in until it just grabs,you than turn it back out 1/8 turn. The harley is 1/2 to 3/4

How does one determine what 1/8th of a turn is? Its easy to determine 1/2 a turn or 3/4

Not being a smart a$$, I can understand somebody having trouble with 1/8 of a six sided object.
If you can do 3/4 you should be all over it. Half of 1/2 turn is a 1/4 turn. Half of 1/4 turn is 1/8 turn. If still troubled with 1/8 turn, perhaps try 1/6 turn. That would be one flat of the allen key in the adjuster. The difference between 1/8 and 1/6 would probably not be worth worrying about in this situation. Hope this helps. Good diagram posted by Ohio HD, that should also be a big help.

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2017, 08:48:21 PM »
The Muller inner ramp must be opened up to clearance the larger diameter bearing thrust washer for the Baker throw out bearing. The Muller inner ramp has a 20,80mm recess for the OEM size bearing and thrust washer. The Baker kit uses a 24,00mm OD bearing, not sure of the thrust washer OD, as I don't have one here. But I assume it's also 24,00mm OD.


By the way, you can just buy the Koyo FNT-1024 bearing, but you'll need to make items #6 and #8 in the diagram.

https://www.amazon.com/Koyo-FNT-1024-Assembly-17000rpm-Rotational/dp/B007EE5S5M




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« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 10:13:14 PM by Ohio HD »
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Offline ecir50

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2017, 08:58:38 PM »
So I guess the one used on the baker is baker specific?

Offline FSG

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2017, 10:27:22 PM »
So I guess the one used on the baker is baker specific?


I got this info direct from Baker back in 2013, "The origin of the washer is Timken who make it to Bakers Design/Dimensions, minimum hardness is 58 Rockwell."

Some more info Baker Heavy Duty Throw Out Bearing
http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php?topic=61088.0

Online klammer76

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2017, 08:40:20 AM »
I just buy mine from Baker, just way easier in the long run. They have a 15% off sale until end of today. I picked up a spare at their tent at Sturgis last year. The shipping is what kills ya.

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2017, 08:45:22 AM »
As long as the 18 ramps are what you want, then that's ok.

For me I see no point in paying for the ramps when I have them sitting in spare part boxes. As well I want to use the Muller, so I'll have the inner ramp chucked in a lathe and open the recess O.D. to about 26,00mm.

By the way, anyone that has purchased the Baker kit, what was the O.D. dimension of the recess in the inner ramp?
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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2017, 11:16:30 AM »
As long as the 18 ramps are what you want, then that's ok.

For me I see no point in paying for the ramps when I have them sitting in spare part boxes. As well I want to use the Muller, so I'll have the inner ramp chucked in a lathe and open the recess O.D. to about 26,00mm.

By the way, anyone that has purchased the Baker kit, what was the O.D. dimension of the recess in the inner ramp?
I meant I just buy the bearing kit from Baker. I use the Muller also.

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2017, 12:24:47 PM »
As long as the 18 ramps are what you want, then that's ok.

For me I see no point in paying for the ramps when I have them sitting in spare part boxes. As well I want to use the Muller, so I'll have the inner ramp chucked in a lathe and open the recess O.D. to about 26,00mm.

By the way, anyone that has purchased the Baker kit, what was the O.D. dimension of the recess in the inner ramp?
I meant I just buy the bearing kit from Baker. I use the Muller also.

I see. But you have to call them to get the replacement parts, they're not listed on the web as items to order.
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Offline FSG

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2017, 12:36:08 PM »
I see. But you have to call them to get the replacement parts, they're not listed on the web as items to order.

I just ordered the bits I wanted, items 5, 6 & 8 from the install sheet via email.


Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2017, 12:46:55 PM »
I see. But you have to call them to get the replacement parts, they're not listed on the web as items to order.

I just ordered the bits I wanted, items 5, 6 & 8 from the install sheet via email.




Yep, that works. I use my friendly INDY to get the stuff from Baker.

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Offline -deuced-

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2017, 04:10:20 PM »
As long as the 18 ramps are what you want, then that's ok.

For me I see no point in paying for the ramps when I have them sitting in spare part boxes. As well I want to use the Muller, so I'll have the inner ramp chucked in a lathe and open the recess O.D. to about 26,00mm.

By the way, anyone that has purchased the Baker kit, what was the O.D. dimension of the recess in the inner ramp?

Recess OD =  0.990", depth = 0.095". Thrust washer OD = 0.905", thick = 0.095".

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2017, 04:13:27 PM »
As long as the 18 ramps are what you want, then that's ok.

For me I see no point in paying for the ramps when I have them sitting in spare part boxes. As well I want to use the Muller, so I'll have the inner ramp chucked in a lathe and open the recess O.D. to about 26,00mm.

By the way, anyone that has purchased the Baker kit, what was the O.D. dimension of the recess in the inner ramp?

Recess OD =  0.990", depth = 0.095". Thrust washer OD = 0.905", thick = 0.095".

Perfect! Thank you!

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Offline FSG

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2017, 04:19:37 PM »
Now that 19 Deg Ramps are available I wonder if Baker are going to offer the choice of ramps with their kit.

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2017, 04:25:02 PM »
I would doubt it, at least not without prodding them.     :duel:


Looking at this Muller unit, wouldn't be super hard to make these, about three operations I think? Last one being EDM machine the pivots. Have to ask Roger, my wonder guy of machining at work.
 
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Offline Snowyone

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2017, 08:25:01 PM »
Well hell, I've got mine put together with the Baker throughout bearing and didn't do the machine work.  No wonder it's not working.

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #51 on: January 01, 2018, 04:04:38 AM »
  get that baby machined so the Baker HD throw out bearing will fit. I'd take a good hard look at the bearing when you get it out. It might be damaged.
  Once you get it right...you will be amazed at the difference it will make.
 
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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2018, 02:18:18 AM »
Well hell, I've got mine put together with the Baker throughout bearing and didn't do the machine work.  No wonder it's not working.

Did you keep the oil slinger? Do you have full clutch lever movement at the handlebar?
The outer ramp is stationary. Cable activation causes the inner ramp to rotate and move away from the outer ramp towards the large retaining ring. I'm thinking that the thrust washer is riding "on" the ramp instead of "in" the ramp and that would prevent full movement of the ramp, which would reduce clutch plate separation.

  get that baby machined so the Baker HD throw out bearing will fit. I'd take a good hard look at the bearing when you get it out. It might be damaged.
  Once you get it right...you will be amazed at the difference it will make.

Bearing rollers, thrust washers and ramps are pretty tough. Interested to see if he finds any damage.


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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #53 on: January 02, 2018, 02:23:52 AM »
As long as the 18 ramps are what you want, then that's ok.

For me I see no point in paying for the ramps when I have them sitting in spare part boxes. As well I want to use the Muller, so I'll have the inner ramp chucked in a lathe and open the recess O.D. to about 26,00mm.

By the way, anyone that has purchased the Baker kit, what was the O.D. dimension of the recess in the inner ramp?

Recess OD =  0.990", depth = 0.095". Thrust washer OD = 0.905", thick = 0.095".

Wouldn't mind a second opinion on my measurements.

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #54 on: January 02, 2018, 02:57:17 AM »
Wouldn't mind a second opinion on my measurements.

The bearing Baker use is Timken FNT-1024, if you don't know the Part Numbers of these bearings break down to ID and OD, i.e. ID 10mm, OD 24mm, Roller Thickness is 2mm.

The recess in the ramp needs to be increased in diameter, the depth is OK.

So the diameter needs to be larger than the bearing which is 24mm /  .945" 

I'll check the dia of the Baker Timken Thrust Washer in the morning.

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2018, 11:31:36 AM »
Ok, so I received my Baker bits yesterday, and here are the difference in dimension of them and the OEM parts.


koyo FNT-1024 bearing 
0.936" OD 
0.398" ID   
0.078" TH

BD410-56 spacer for bearing 
0.390" OD   
0.256" ID   
0.072" TH

BD411-56 thrust washer   
0.909" OD 
0.255" ID   
0.094" TH

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OEM bearing 
0.670" OD
0.255" ID 
0.078" TH

OEM thrust washer
0.676" OD 
0.259" ID 
0.093" TH   

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

21  OEM ramp
0.099" recess depth 
0.805" recess diameter

Muller  power ramp
0.068" recess depth
0.827" recess diameter

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ok, armed with all of this info, the OEM ramp has a recess diameter that is 16% larger than the OEM thrust washer, and has a delta of 0.129".

The measurement of the Baker thrust washer increased by the same 0.129" clearance suggests a recess diameter in the Muller (or any ramp) of 1.038".

The measurement of 0.990" would give a clearance of 0.081" around he Baker thrust washer. Then if you look at the flip side of the Muller ramp, making that recess OD larger is a cautious maneuver, as you're getting really close to the ramps. As well I would not want to make the recess in the Muller ramp any deeper for the same reason.

So I would like to hear from someone who has machined the Muller ramps for the larger OD Baker throw out bearing. What OD did you make the recess in the Muller ramp?


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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2018, 12:01:46 PM »
Well I'll have to search my files to get the diameter, NOTE: there's no need to go deeper.

You can see in the Muller below I've increased the bore slightly, that was so the E-Clip I used on the end of the slinger/adjustment shaft had clearance.


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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2018, 12:04:42 PM »
Thanks Gary.
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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2018, 02:49:44 PM »
I'll have to check my notes when I get home to see if I recorded the measurements. HTT Member Billy machined both my oem 21* and my Muller. He may recall?

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2018, 03:50:58 PM »
I really want to try those ramps as my left hand locks up, especially if it's cold. I wonder if SE spring with the muller ramps is as easy as the stock ramp and clutch spring. I should put the SE spring in my '07, but haven't because of the arthritis and i'm thinking it might be just the thing. :scoot:


Late to the conversation, but


I've installed at least a dozen and maybe as many as 20 over the years.  We always get them from California Phil. 


For cone-riding, nothing beats it.  It not only eases the effort required, but also increases the friction zone by the same percentage. 
People for whom I've installed say that they hate trying to ride a motor in cone patters without a Mueller.  I have to agree with them.   That wider friction zone makes all the difference in the world.

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #60 on: January 06, 2018, 05:52:41 PM »
 :agree:  Its real handy in parking lots too.    :wink:
KD

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #61 on: January 07, 2018, 05:44:58 AM »
I'll have to check my notes when I get home to see if I recorded the measurements. HTT Member Billy machined both my oem 21* and my Muller. He may recall?

I don't recall the exact measurement, however I opened up the recess enough to allow for the tool nose radius, and faced it back to the ID, so as the washer would sit comfortably flat on a fully machined seat. HTH
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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #62 on: January 07, 2018, 06:26:53 PM »
So, I've never actually seen a muller ramp but I have wondered how far it could be cut before eating into the ramps on the other side. I guess the muller ramp is designed to run oem bearing but why is the recess shallower (~0.030") than oem ramp. Do the muller and oem ramps have identical stack heights? Just curious what happens with that 30 thou.
How much clearance is required between washer od and recess od to let some (relatively thick) oil in? Surely the smaller the recess diameter the better in regards to leaving enough meat around the ramp divots (talking muller).
oem washer to oem recess is ~0.065
oem washer to muller recess is ~0.075
baker washer to baker recess is ~0.045
Would 0.025" be enough?

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #63 on: January 08, 2018, 05:07:14 AM »
Quote
Do the muller and oem ramps have identical stack heights? Just curious what happens with that 30 thou.

As long as they're reasonably close it won't matter, the adjustment screw on the clutch has plenty of range.
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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #64 on: January 09, 2018, 05:05:48 PM »
This is good as I can measure the Muller ramp without a CMM to track the actual features. So opening the recess to 0.949", gives me about 0.018" of material left at the outer diameter of the recess to the ramp machining. Remember the thrust washer is 0.909" OD, so that leaves only 0.020" clearance on either side of the thrust washer to allow for mismatch when the clutch lever is pulled.


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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #65 on: January 09, 2018, 05:09:46 PM »
heaps of room   :SM:

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #66 on: January 09, 2018, 05:15:10 PM »
I know, you can drive a train through it, as long as it's only 0.017" tall.....      :dgust:


Never thought I'd be claying the throw out bearing when assembling it.      :hyst:


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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #67 on: January 10, 2018, 10:06:49 AM »
  Brian...I just called Just Nick on the phone to confirm the size bit he used to opened up my Mueller ramp for the Baker HD throw out bearing.
He said he used a 15/16" end mill bit...and that was what Bert @ Baker told him to use.
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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #68 on: January 10, 2018, 10:40:36 AM »
Thank you Ray.

I had reached out to Nick a while back, and haven't heard from him. So dropping it to 0.937" from 0.949", I gain a little material, 0.003" more, at 0.021". It can't hurt!

Guess my measurements weren't to bad then.



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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #69 on: January 10, 2018, 11:22:23 AM »
   Nick said he has been swamped with work and he hasn't had much time to get on the forum lately. I guess that isn't a bad thing if your that busy.
  I had thought Nick told me he opened mine up to 15/16"..but I wanted to make sure before I opened my mouth.
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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #70 on: January 10, 2018, 05:21:03 PM »
I appreciate it Ray, makes me more comfortable taking the material off.     :up:

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #71 on: January 10, 2018, 10:41:36 PM »
Question here....is this needed (opened up Mueller ramp for the Baker HD throw out bearing)???
I have the Mueller and shovelhead spring to install on my 114 @137HP & 134TQ.
If this is the way to go who and where do I get this done?
Or run it like it is.....??????
Come on, Ohio HD & No Cents let me know please. Thanks for the info.

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #72 on: January 11, 2018, 12:05:51 AM »
Question here....is this needed (opened up Mueller ramp for the Baker HD throw out bearing)???
I have the Mueller and shovelhead spring to install on my 114 @137HP & 134TQ.
If this is the way to go who and where do I get this done?
Or run it like it is.....??????
Come on, Ohio HD & No Cents let me know please. Thanks for the info.
Yes, if you are going to run the heavy duty larger Baker bearing it needs to be opened up.

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #73 on: January 11, 2018, 04:40:01 AM »
klammer76 is correct.  :up:
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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #74 on: January 11, 2018, 05:40:55 AM »
Looks like putting a slight chamfer on the throwout and radiusing the flutes a touch on the end mill would go a long way here?
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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #75 on: January 11, 2018, 06:34:24 AM »
Question here....is this needed (opened up Mueller ramp for the Baker HD throw out bearing)???
I have the Mueller and shovelhead spring to install on my 114 @137HP & 134TQ.
If this is the way to go who and where do I get this done?
Or run it like it is.....??????
Come on, Ohio HD & No Cents let me know please. Thanks for the info.


You don't indicate that you are using the Baker bearing. The mod to the Muller arm is only done to accommodate that over-sized release bearing. Follow the instructions and put it together. If at some point you decide to go to the heavy duty Baker unit you will have this thread to get the spec for machining out the relief.  :wink:

 :up:  for using the return spring on the cable.
KD

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #76 on: January 11, 2018, 10:00:36 AM »
Looks like putting a slight chamfer on the throwout and radiusing the flutes a touch on the end mill would go a long way here?

I was thinking similar. Radius the inside corner of the recess and one edge of a thrust washer? Keep half the thickness of the thrust washer untouched, the half closest to the bearing, to maintain support for the bearing rollers. Micro surgery to radius a corner of a washer! Chamfer would be easier. With ~0.020 of meat to the divot, I think a radius would be stronger although I don't think I'd be too keen on taking the edge off a (expensive) mill bit.

I'll have to check my notes when I get home to see if I recorded the measurements. HTT Member Billy machined both my oem 21* and my Muller. He may recall?

I don't recall the exact measurement, however I opened up the recess enough to allow for the tool nose radius, and faced it back to the ID, so as the washer would sit comfortably flat on a fully machined seat. HTH

Sounds like Billy went bigger than 0.949 diameter. And no faffing about with the thrust washer. That might be fine on a 21 ramp but again, I've not seen a Muller ramp.
BTW, I believe klammer76 and Billy are both reputable sources of information. I also trust Ohio HD's measurements and that's what got me thinking about taking the edge off the washer.
Another BTW, 15/16 = 0.9375". My baker ramp measures 0.990 but looks like someone had two bites at it. I wonder if it had been done on a mill with maybe a worn 1" bit.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 10:04:59 AM by -deuced- »

Offline Billy

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #77 on: January 11, 2018, 10:13:42 AM »
If y'all are gonna use an end mill I'd suggest carbide. I didn't hardness test the ramp material but it is hard, I'd guess 58-60 Rockwell C.
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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #78 on: January 11, 2018, 01:04:07 PM »
Quote
I didn't hardness test the ramp material but it is hard

sure is   :SM:

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #79 on: January 11, 2018, 03:48:45 PM »
Well I can tell you that the new 19 Deg Ramps in the 2018 Softails aren't very hard  :emsad:

I just machined a new ramp to take the larger diameter thrust washer, wasn't cheese or brass but sure wasn't as hard as the previous HD 21 and 16 Deg ramps I've touched.


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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #80 on: January 11, 2018, 03:53:28 PM »
and just because, here's a stock HD thrust washer sitting in the recess of a stock 21 Deg inner ramp


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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #81 on: January 11, 2018, 04:16:26 PM »
Speaking of 21 ramps. Here's how much room you have after opening the recess to 0.990" for the Baker HD throw out bearing. Even a drunk sailor could do it!!     :teeth:


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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #82 on: January 11, 2018, 09:36:24 PM »
I checked my notebook and I don't have the dimensions from my Muller that Billy machined. I'm surprised as I record everything. I'll add to this later in the spring when I have the clutch release cover off when it gets warmer.

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #83 on: February 02, 2018, 03:54:08 PM »
My buddy with the machine shop called, said my ramps were ready. I picked them up, they look good, getting things together little by little.


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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #84 on: February 03, 2018, 05:39:16 PM »
Might just be the angle of the dangle but they look like different sizes in the pic. Are they all machined to fit a baker bearing? Looks like you went a little deeper on the muller, too?

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #85 on: February 03, 2018, 05:58:38 PM »
They are different diameters, the 21 units are larger diameter, as there's more room. Good eye on the Muller, it's deeper, not because I wanted it that way.

Another lesson, stop letting your friends do work for you for free. It was machined to match the depth of the 21's even though I didn't ask for that. An honest mistake, but what can I say, make him pay for a part that he wouldn't charge me to machine? I don't have what I need at home to accurately measure from the radius to the other side where the recess is. At work I can see how much material is still there, and if I think there is any issues with the three bearings and the clutch spring pressure. If I think it's too thin, I'll scrap it and buy another Muller. Getting metal bits into the transmission bearings isn't worth the gamble.

So I did what any sane person would do, I ordered a cheap bench top lathe today.    :teeth:
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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #86 on: February 03, 2018, 06:20:18 PM »
.........................ordered a cheap bench top lathe today.    :teeth:

I've been researching those lately, definitely on the wishlist. I'm starting a new thread!

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #87 on: February 05, 2018, 04:02:17 PM »
Just thought I'd add this picture.  18* ramps that were included with the Baker Drivetrain Heavy Duty Throwout bearing Kit I bought in a match 2011. https://bakerdrivetrain.com/products/heavy-duty-throwout-bearing-kit

Left pic with stock bearing in stock 18* ramp.  Right pic 18* ramp from Baker supplied in their kit.

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« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 06:13:43 PM by Bagger »

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #88 on: February 05, 2018, 04:54:15 PM »
Muller ramp that I sent to Baker, which they machined to fit their bearing for me.
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« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 05:10:24 PM by Bagger »

Offline ecir50

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #89 on: February 05, 2018, 05:53:05 PM »
so what's the advantage for the larger baker?

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #90 on: February 05, 2018, 06:07:23 PM »
More bearing surface, handles more load.
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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #91 on: February 05, 2018, 06:41:47 PM »
Was wondering if there would be a notable feel. Seem it would be smoother with the large surface. 

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #92 on: February 08, 2018, 05:10:17 PM »
Muller ramp that I sent to Baker, which they machined to fit their bearing for me.


Measurements? Looks like they machined the recess wider than in their 18 ramps. What about depth? Thrust washer looks like it may have been machined. Is the thrust washer flush with the ramp? Is it the same thrust washer as in your 18 pic? Are the Baker thrust washers in the pics the same thickness?

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #93 on: February 20, 2018, 03:57:55 PM »
Muller 67-10-0 FAIL

I bought a micrometer from a guy that had tools listed on eBay. Good for measuring the remaining material after my friend played end mill to the center of the earth with the Muller inner ramp. Best I can measure is I have 0.011" of material between the bearing recess and the closest part of the divot on the other side of it. So it's not enough material to make me feel comfortable with 400+ pounds of clutch pressure pushing against it. So it's scrap. Maybe it's ok to use on a stock clutch spring pressure, but why would you need it on a stock clutch?

   :angry:       :banghead:      :cry:      :emoGroan:


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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #94 on: February 20, 2018, 04:23:58 PM »
Can you refill it with mild steel and re-cut it now that you know the depth measurement?
KD

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #95 on: February 20, 2018, 04:27:10 PM »
Not taking chances with anything that will eventual end up in the bearings in the transmission. These ramps are hard, probably C50 or more. It's not worth the trouble to try and fix it, and end up with bigger problems later.
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #96 on: March 31, 2018, 03:05:50 PM »
First lesson in working on, well, anything. If you want something done right, do it yourself. This is an HD 18 ramp I machined for the Baker heavy duty through out bearing. Turned out pretty good I think. They definitely are as hard as a snarbuckle.


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Offline koko3052

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #97 on: March 31, 2018, 03:11:50 PM »
Our snarbuckles all froze  here last night, -28C!  :dgust:

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #98 on: March 31, 2018, 03:41:40 PM »
Quote
This is an HD 18 ramp I machined for the Baker heavy duty through out bearing.

To what diameter and depth?

It's just my opinion but, the Baker Thrust Washer (by Timken) which are considerably larger in diameter than the OEM, provide much more stability for the Inner Ramp to rotate and so I'd only enlarge the recess diameter in the Inner Ramp to a hair or so larger than the OD of the Thrust Washer.

Kudos to Bert for putting up the $$$ to have the Thrust Washers made as their ID is smaller than stock for the OD.
 .

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #99 on: March 31, 2018, 04:09:53 PM »
Quote
This is an HD 18 ramp I machined for the Baker heavy duty through out bearing.

To what diameter and depth?

It's just my opinion but, the Baker Thrust Washer (by Timken) which are considerably larger in diameter than the OEM, provide much more stability for the Inner Ramp to rotate and so I'd only enlarge the recess diameter in the Inner Ramp to a hair or so larger than the OD of the Thrust Washer.

Kudos to Bert for putting up the $$$ to have the Thrust Washers made as their ID is smaller than stock for the OD.
 .

OD came out at 0.942", the depth is 0.105", that cleaned it up decent.

You must have gotten different bearings than I did, mine came with the brass bushing to fit the push rod diameter.


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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #100 on: March 31, 2018, 04:18:07 PM »
Quote
You must have gotten different bearings than I did, mine came with the brass bushing to fit the push rod diameter.

the bushing is needed for the bearing, the thrust washers courtesy of Bert have the ID to match the pushrod diameter

if'n you go to a bearing shop to get one of those bearings the only thrust washers you'll find available will have IDs and ODs to match the bearing

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #101 on: March 31, 2018, 04:22:14 PM »
Quote
You must have gotten different bearings than I did, mine came with the brass bushing to fit the push rod diameter.

the bushing is needed for the bearing, the thrust washers courtesy of Bert have the ID to match the pushrod diameter

if'n you go to a bearing shop to get one of those bearings the only thrust washers you'll find available will have IDs and ODs to match the bearing

DOH! I got ya, yes, they are the right size.    :up:

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #102 on: March 31, 2018, 05:06:25 PM »
Ok, if you do something twice, I guess it's not luck. Muller ramp machined for Baker HD throw out bearing. Recess diameter is 0.934", depth is 0.068", the distance between the recess corner and the bearing divot as the crow flies is 0.030". So all is good again in HD ramp land.

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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Muller Power Clutch - First Impressions
« Reply #103 on: March 31, 2018, 05:44:28 PM »
I checked the run out of the bearing race surface on both the HD and the Muller. The Muller was tighter, had about 0.001" run out before starting. The HD was about 0.0025".


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